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I'm partial to the psychic disciplines. I would have preferred 6 decent powers, but they never managed to do that, so giving us 3 powers that are all usable is close enough. Especially considering THEY'RE NOT FRICKIN RANDOM *praises the darg gods*

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

Finally, is anyone else disappointed in the Psychic Disciplines so far?

Yeah, they've been nerfed to the point of being boring.

I imagine that with the general changes to character rules (no more ICs, Challenges, etc) that Champion of Chaos/Chaos Boons are most likely no longer a thing.

This kind of makes me sad; while the system was clunky if you weren't building around it, and always had the potential to screw you up ("I fried your Sergeant with Psychic Shriek" *rolls dice* "Spawndom?!!?"), the Chaos Warband ultimately made it more of a boon(ha!). I do hope there is at least some mechanic that replaces it: "Replenish spent Command Points when you slay enemy characters" would be a nice one.

Otherwise...guess it's "Spiky Loyalists" again I suppose. Bleh.

Infernal gaze seems pretty poor. not much different to smite, and 1-2 wounds isn't going to change much, or offset the not inconsiderable risk of perils.

*** unless psychic power bypass the character targeting restriction?- in which case, decent sniper power? Tho characters seem to have a lot more wounds ***

Warptime seems very solid for getting into combat before the enemy get's their shooting phase in. Power 6, is not particularly reliable (come onnn spell familiarr still being a thing)


Presence is decent. of course can't effect a unit and a character like we're used to.

Interestingly there doesn't seem to be any categorization anymore. The power tells you what's what. So prescience could be cast on ENEMY heretic astartes. I HIGHLY doubt that will ever be useful, but I thought it was an interesting observation.

Overall it seems the powers operate completely according to what they say, so won't suffer from -1 to hit flyers, be able to be cast in melee etc unless they say so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Infernal gaze seems pretty poor. not much different to smite, and 1-2 wounds isn't going to change much, or offset the not inconsiderable risk of perils.

Warptime seems very solid for getting into combat before the enemy get's their shooting phase in. Power 6, is not particularly reliable (come onnn spell familiarr still being a thing)


Presence is decent. of course can't effect a unit and a character like we're used to.

That depends, if this can bypass the not whole no-shooting-at characters-unless-they're-close thing, this could cause up to 3 unsaveable wounds as they are their own units.
Maybe there is still a restriction of casting one power per guy, so this would let you cast smite in addition, so basically double smite.

Jump packs in land raiders is a thing. and because you get out, move, then assault.. decent charge range.

Maybe not raptors.. but warp talons, or a jump lord. It could be a solid way of getting around.

Full pack of warp talons in a spartan could be a thing.

It it 65 points for 3 oblits or for 1?

Coming back to Word bearers though, the DG leak could be very interesting indeed. They get their own personal powers that only work on other DG members, so these aren't nurgle powers per se. Could just be a starter kit quirk, but there are going to have to be normal nurgle powers too, since non DG can also take the mark of nurgle and cast powers.

So, with any luck word bearers get their own daemonic centered discipline that cloud make them stand out as far as summoning goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FudgeDumper wrote:
It it 65 points for 3 oblits or for 1?

It says points per model so that's for 1.
And I agree that obliterators are done poorly. Centurions got to keep their multiple profiles, why not oblits. They're basically chaos flashgitz now ^_-

Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.

 n0t_u wrote:
If AoS is anything to go by we'll probably see 1-2 rules per faction as a reward for going purely into that faction/legion.

On the GW twitch questions chat, he mentioned faction specific stratagems exist which works on hierarchy basis. So if you you have different main factions(eldar,tau), only get rulebook stratagems. If you have all imperium(can choose imperium stratagems), all dark angels or astra militarum (gain access to their specific stratagems). Now if the ones in the main rulebook are the best, this gives no benefit, but it's some disadvantage to allies at least.

Indeed the magic looks.....meh. In particlar the nurgle one is pretty bad...

Also I can understand that huge HUGE nerf to obliterators.....but I bet centurions will still shot like hell their op grav weapons.

The new weapon to obliterators is bad. The random is bad....pay 65 for a guy that maybe do 2 s7 ap-1 shoots at 24'? no way

Also why they lost the fist? they should cost, just because that, at least 20 pts less

 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.

Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.

CovenantGuardian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.

Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.

Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.

 Vaktathi wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.

Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.

Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.

You misunderstand, the Rhinos ability to charge and delay opposing units is incredible now. Without playing 8th, you don't know how the game plays anymore, your frame of reference is completely based on 7th.

The psychic powers are toned down, but there's way more of them flying around in 8th because every psyker will be casting them.
For infernal gaze, it seems decent because:
A: it gives you another mortal-wound power. Psykers can only cast each power once per phase, so having both smite and gaze lets them really blast things.
B: It's targeted, rather than being closest unit. Potentially great for stripping characters.

I'm sad about the obliterators. I don't think its much of a nerf, the weapons are still good and the randomness is small enough to not make that much difference (goes from autocannon to mini-lascannon). It's more that it's boring. Being able to pick basically any weapon was a cool gimmick, and made oblits unique. They probably wanted to make the oblits (mid/close range blasters) more distinct from havoks (long range firepower)
Loss of the powerfist stings too, but I guess they wanted mutilators to be more attractive (I'm guessing they'll have the same D3 style weapons, but for melee).

With terminators being minimum 5 models now, I guess characters cant ride in landraiders with them anymore?

indeed is a sha for chaos the minimum 5 terminators. Chaos land raider cant carry them...

Also what a lost chance of get the other land raider options

CovenantGuardian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.

Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.

Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.

You misunderstand, the Rhinos ability to charge and delay opposing units is incredible now. Without playing 8th, you don't know how the game plays anymore, your frame of reference is completely based on 7th.

Oh you mean the Rhino's ability to charge itself, well, that has some utility, for sure, but doubling its points cost for that alone feels...dramatically excessive, particularly when many units riding in them won't necessarily be assault units and therefore will derive basically 0 benefit from such an ability.

Given GW's track record over the last 20 years and looking at what's happening to Obliterators, LRBT's, and some of the other things we've seen, and having played this game for many editions, my gut feeling is saying that's going to be a borked costing rather than a legitimate reflection of value. I could be wrong, absolutely, but that's how it's shaping up in my eyes.

I dunno about nurgle. Those are DEATH GUARD powers. They' can't possibly give only deathguard nurgle powers while leaving the rest of the chaos undivided legions in the dirt.
Black Legion and Word Bearers only getting marks and their sorcerers not getting access to nurgle powers would be stupid beyond belief.
That said, I would assume that DG get access to dark heretic powers too, so they have smite, plaguewind and infernal gaze to spam mortal wounds. Sounds pretty nasty to me.
Gift of contagion got worse though, they should have let you choose which effect you gain if they wanted to nerf the actual effect. Not that it needed nerfing. -1 Toughness isn't as useful as it used to be, nor is -1 strength.
Plague of pestilence also works in melee from what I can tell, that makes it pretty decent. At least for already tough units like (hopefully) terminators.

Franarok wrote:
indeed is a sha for chaos the minimum 5 terminators. Chaos land raider cant carry them...

Also what a lost chance of get the other land raider options

Radiers can still carry 5 terminators, they just can't carry anything else along with them (each termy is 2 slots)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

I was almost going to begin assembling two of them from diverse spare parts. Already had the power fists ready.



The nerf is quite a thing, and making them five points cheaper in exchange of random weapons and losing their power fists is a bit insulting. They were an old unit with very clearly defined and unique mechanics, now that's been taken away in favour of MORE randomness. The new shooting profile is not that bad, but it's random, and in the end a loss of options if compared to what they could do before. Not to mention, without fists AND flamers, they've become pretty useless in melee.

If they wanted to make Mutilators more attractive they should have come up with ways of making them so, instead of nerfing the Oblits.

I'll probably go ahead with the conversions anyway because at this stage I couldn't care less about what GW rules say, but these kind of issues are always annoying as hell.

I don't know if it applies for match play, but there was something about taking under strength units, and still paying full points for them.
So it would not be cheap but you could still get characters into the raider with terminators

It's not just the random FUN. Their effective range got cut in half with the loss of long range profiles like the lascannon. It doesn't even make sense lorewise, since they can mutate into whatever they need and they used to do just that.
Possessed are in the same boat, those have been suffering from random tables too. Oblits are less random but It's still pretty silly and really wasn't needed.
Plus they were better vs any given target since you could choose the appropriate weapon. And now they only ever get two shots and you need a minimum of 3 so in a way they even got more expensive.
They really kinda stink compared to the old ones.

Another edition where we have to run sorcerers and heldrakes to have a chance, so exciting.

Oblits vs centurions:
2 shots with S7-9, Ap1-3 and damage D3
vs
D3 shots with S8, Ap2 and damage D3
about equal... and then centuions also get 2 lascannon shots with S9 Ap3 and D6 damage.
Seems balanced.

Well, we don't have the points for cents yet, I believe?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need.

Yep. Instead of making the Possessed more like the Obliterators, now the Obliterators are randumb like the old Possessed.
In addition, the rule is incredibly impratical. Roll 3d3, then the first is one stat, the second is another, the third is a third weapon stat.
"Wait, which one is what? Ah you used coloured dice?"
"Yes"
"You forgot to say which one is what"
"Sorry now I will roll them in order instead, for all my 4 units"

Well, I should have expected that. The game is new, but the designers are the same incompetent bunch.

looking at the supposed Sister's leaks on Faeit212, it looks like Rhino's are T7 W10, which, if they have a 3+ save, would make them hardier than Dreads, which I guess would account for the higher cost of 70pts, but I'm wondering why they would be so dramatically up-armored.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need.

Yep. Instead of making the Possessed more like the Obliterators, now the Obliterators are randumb like the old Possessed.
In addition, the rule is incredibly impratical. Roll 3d3, then the first is one stat, the second is another.
"Wait, which one is what? Ah you used coloured dice?"
"Yes"
"You forgot to say which one is what"
"Sorry now I will roll them in order instead, for all my 4 units"

Well, I should have expected that. The game is new, but the designers are the same incompetent bunch.

Yeah, more and more that's what I'm thinking myself. I hope I'm wrong, but it's shaping up to be the same old dog and pony show we've seen before despite all the talk of community engagement and tournament feedback and the like.

24" range doesn't matter as much due to oblits having deep-strike. They're basically guaranteed to always be in range of what they want to shoot at. I'm more worried about their damage potential.

The fact I can literally see half the unique rules for the deathguard is mildly infuriating, wish we could see the entire page. Oh well.

For everyone hating on obliterates look at it as if you have a short range autocannon that gain random buffs each turn. Which... might be okay? Depending on how much autocannon havocs cost (and how useful autocannons are in general).

Also worth mentioning, they don't get power fists but they are str 5 with 3 attacks now. Lack of flamers/autohit is what really hurts them.

Anyone else notice mortarion isn't in the book? Is that normal for models that might not be out on day one?

Looks like all the future deathguard and primaris things are going to be in their own codex. So that probably means thats what the first 2 codexes are going to be. Dissapointing to say the least.

I don't think obliterators will be that bad. I mean, granted they got a nerf from 7th, but we don't know how effective they'll actually be in game. We're still thinking in terms of 7th edition power, myself included. All the math hammering in a vacuum doesn't really do anything either. Remember, they may be toughness 4, but you can't instakill them from doubling them out. And as Blaxican said, you always deep strike them anyways.

 Don Savik wrote:

I don't think obliterators will be that bad. I mean, granted they got a nerf from 7th, but we don't know how effective they'll actually be in game. We're still thinking in terms of 7th edition power, myself included. All the math hammering in a vacuum doesn't really do anything either. Remember, they may be toughness 4, but you can't instakill them from doubling them out. And as Blaxican said, you always deep strike them anyways.

I think the 3d3 is intrinsically bad design, and a bad sign, but I admit this is true. Let's still wait and see - the complexity we are facing is huge and we will have a true grasp of it well after the release.
I just find it very bad conceptually and a possible evidence of the design team not leaving behind the old vices.