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Plasma: gun or pistol? If a unit is definitely going to be able to choose it's fights, it seems taking two Plasma shots before the charge is worth losing the chainsword's extra attack, but what role might benefit more from taking the pistol? I guess a counter-charge unit that expects to intervene against big enemy units would find them handy, in our turn following the charge...

I love everything about this thread. Ya'll the real heroes.

I'm planning to add a World Eaters Patrol. It'll be a squad of Berzerkers jumping out of a Kharybdis, with a HQ hanging out with them. I'm thinking instead of a Chaos Lord, a Dark Apostle? Would give twice as many re-rolls, and when they take heavy casualties would stop someone running away? So far, 8ed has felt like a game of hordes and buffs, I'm liking the idea of a giant blob that eats everything in its path

I think I'll prepare some leadership shenanigans. Blightbringer and Raptors with Nurgle icon will bring even Necrons down to ld 7. I'll have to see if it's possible to keep all of those together for full effect. If the opponent hast to use his CP simply for making easy ld tests he can't use them for more important stuff I guess .

So, the FW index is out.

Anyone has it and can confierm/deny that DG and TS has access to the toys there?

 BoomWolf wrote:
So, the FW index is out.

Anyone has it and can confierm/deny that DG and TS has access to the toys there?

Can't see anything from the leaked dataslates that would override the DG and TS set lists in the GW Index Chaos, so no? :( Anyone with the actual book able to prove otherwise?

Disappointed no marks for Knights, saved myself £500 not needing to buy them at least. Can use the money on a Kharybdis and Brass Scorpion instead.

Regretting going Khorne a little as i'm missing out on a lot of nice ranged units from FW.

The Hellforged predator rules are pretty fun.

Nice inclusion of the old AL Rktos in the FW chaos index. Also ---- Dark Mechanicus are now a thing...... Rules for Dark Mechanicum models that have no models and have never had entries before??? Foreshadowing new FW models and a (coming soon) dark mechanicum list? I hope so!

..there are no rules that don't have models. The dark mechanicus character you can use this guy.
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-SE/Archmagos-Draykavac-Archmagos

Demantiae wrote:
Nice inclusion of the old AL Rktos in the FW chaos index. Also ---- Dark Mechanicus are now a thing...... Rules for Dark Mechanicum models that have no models and have never had entries before??? Foreshadowing new FW models and a (coming soon) dark mechanicum list? I hope so!

Sorry, Rktos? What's that?

Also, what else is there in the FW Index?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
..there are no rules that don't have models.

Show me the FW model for Lord Arkos.

Find it pretty suspect that they have rule for a very obscure SC with no model made for him....yet there's no rules for Sonic Dreadnoughts or indeed tFerrus Infernum (which were our Venerable equivalent and far preferable to the random pointlessness of a Helbrute - especially when they shifted the aesthetic of the Helbrute from Dreadnought/Machine (2nd ed, FW) to mutated daemon engine-lite.

Bluebeard wrote:

Demantiae wrote:
Nice inclusion of the old AL Rktos in the FW chaos index. Also ---- Dark Mechanicus are now a thing...... Rules for Dark Mechanicum models that have no models and have never had entries before??? Foreshadowing new FW models and a (coming soon) dark mechanicum list? I hope so!

Sorry, Rktos? What's that?

Also, what else is there in the FW Index?

Sorry Lord Arktos, got excited and typed too fast.

That Horus Heresy miniature, whist you could convert that into a Helllwright, it isn't the model for it. The idea is supposed to be rules for models that actually exist, not models that can be converted into other things. My Armylus Dynat can easily be used to represent Arktos, but that's not supposed to be the point. there must be models incoming for them. I guess they can possibly write off Arktos as just a relic of past books but no way they would release rules for Dark Mechanicum HQ's if they dind't intent to release both models and an army list for them. And it makes sense given they added the mechanicum to imperial armies and a lot of people would love chaos to be expanded with their own. It'd be an excuse to release a new range of mini's too that would sell. Problem with updating many of the chaos models is that they may not actually sell well considering people already have their armies. A new line would shift a lot of units.

Hopefully we'll see the sonic dread in an EC codex or wherever they put the cult legion lists. Though all the Nurgle and Khorne units seem to be present in the book. Weird. The other dreadnought+ unit never really had a model. It was just a better stat line for a chaos dread. And while I agree it's rules were better (if only because it didn't have that janky random behaviour BS) the rules for 8th are much more lenient for the hellbrute and the new index got new entries for Leviathans and Deredeo's, which kind of compensate for it's exclusion.

The Deredeo looks interesting. Gets a heavy havoc launcher that has indirect fire and projects a 6" 5++ bubble to friendly units around it. He can also get +1 to hit fliers every other turn. Kind of like a dreadnought character.

Another interesting unit is the rapier battery. If the marine operates die then the gun turns into a kamikaze that must move ma distance towards the nearest enemy unit, shooting as it goes. And it must charge if within range. A bit odd but might be quite funny to have your guns charging across the table by themselves!

The Achilles looks amazing. I have one still undergoing conversion work that I intended to be my centre piece in 7th. It's rules now are mental - LR with 19 wounds (it's almost a Spartan who has 20 wounds) 4++ and a gun that fires indirect and does 2d3 mortal wounds.. It can self heal in CC like all the Hellforged units now and if you wound it it just gets better in combat (so it's more likely to kill stuff and be able to heal itself). Seeing this ting die will be a rarity in a game. And you just can't ignore something that can spit out solid mortal wounds anywhere on the table. I don't think FW's reputation for cheese will be cast off any time soon.

The Falchion is just crazy: 2w6 s16 - 5 shots that do 2w6 dmg each, plus 8 lascannon shots for 760 points.
On a t9, 2+ chassis, 26w

stormcraft wrote:
The Falchion is just crazy: 2w6 s16 - 5 shots that do 2w6 dmg each, plus 8 lascannon shots for 760 points.
On a t9, 2+ chassis, 26w

You got a pic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks Stormcraft.

That is pretty nice but is 760pts worth it when you can get a shadowsword for 430pts? Or pay an extra 100pts for two shadowswords?

I dont know, but i know i will use my falchion and kill anything i point it at every turn

Falchion is what you pull out when that guy brings an all knight list to a knife fight. It's pretty much a titan-killer.

Going back to Lord Arktos, he buffs units to get +1 to advance and charge rolls. If you know yo're getting first turn then infiltrate him as far up the table as you can and have units or Warp Talons/Mutilators/Raptors/Termies DS in next to him, 9" away from an enemy unit. Now instead of needing a 9 for a first turn charge you only need an 8, which is much more likely with a re-roll. Not terribly OP but it's an option. Or you can use him to buff Termie advance rolls to keep them from being uber-slow.

Decimator demon engine is a dreadnought that moves 10". It's not as potent as a contemptor but it has some good weapons and with regenerating wounds it could be a pain as a skirmish unit. It has <10 wounds so it doesn't suffer from diminishing stats as it loses wounds. It's been nerfed from 7th ed but it now seems to serve a different role as a cheap, fast skirmishing walker.

Hellforged Predators are taken in the elite slot rather than HS and for 5 points more than a typical autocannon/las variant it gets to heal when it kills stuff in CC, gets better WS as it takes wounds and gets +3 attacks on the charge! Chaos Preds turn into Ork Wartrucks! 7 attacks on the charge and a 1/3 chance to heal a wound for every model you kill in combat. Not bad. And you can take heavy flamer sponsons instad of HB/las as well as the Horus Heresy Deimos turret options. A triple flamer predator burning and ramming its way through enemy lines seems tasty! Really no reason not to take Preds as Hellforged.

That Hellforged Predator is an absolute monster. HF stuff in general looks good. What's it meant to be, in terms of fluff and appearance? They sound like vehicles with Daemonic Possession, but they don't have the same rules & keywords as Daemon Engines. My Land Raider with a toothy assault ramp likes the idea of feasting on loyalists...

What the Warp is a Hellwright? Cawl's evil twin? Looks like a decent accompaniment for tanks going around eating people and getting close to Melta.

Dreadclaws and Kharybdis look AMAZING. We can DS Helbrutes and the corpse-lovers can't (yet) DS dreads. Get some Tyrannocytes, saw off & switch around their mouths & bumholes, put Legion transfers on their chitin plates, and get harvesting Imperial tears

Ectoplasma Rapiers look AMAZING. Get your Forgefiend leftovers, a box of Kataphrons, a babysitter Chaos Lord to iron out the 1's, and banish Terminators from your metagame. (Strangely absent option for Hades Autocannons, though - not that high Str weak AP seems all that useful now that vehicles get saves)

Hell Blades are interesting, being able to turn on a sixpence. Does this make them the most agile human-made jet fighter? Is this more useful than the more heavily-armed Xiphon - which loses BS & speed as it takes damage, and lacks the invulnerable save? Not sure if I'll be slicing off my previously-awesome Helstorm Cannon for Lascannons - on balance they look pretty even, and the higher fire rate & occasional lucky MW gives the HC marginally higher versatility - especially when harassing W3 units.

Hell Talons, on the other hand... hmm. Killing 33% of a 1W Infantry blob looks *really* good. Black Templars and rival Heretics will *hate* these. Warp-pulse bombs look handy against Greenskins - they'll effectively halve an Ork unit's firepower for a turn. Since Baletalon isn't a shooting attack, can we snipe Monster Characters with them? I'm ok with taking out Guilliman with a bombing run, we'll be the ones writing the history books afterwards. And we can burn a bunch of CP to reload these bombs, is that right?

I do not understand what's going on with the Fire Raptor. The Reaper Battery costs six points more than the Quad Heavy Bolters, but it seems like it should have eight shots instead of six? Getting twice as many shots makes the bolters much better against most targets:

(Assuming no misses, so reduce these numbers by a third for the actual likely damage output)

Vs T1-2:
Same roll to wound, so the Heavy Bolters inflict twice as much damage

Vs T3:
12 S5 = 8w
6 S7 = 5w

Heavy Bolters 60% better

Vs T4:
Same roll to wound, so the Heavy Bolters inflict twice as much damage

Vs T5:
12 S5 = 6w
6 S7 = 4w

Heavy Bolters 50% better

Vs T6:
12 S5 = 4w
6 S7 = 4w

Damage is same

Vs T7:
12 S5 = 4w
6 S7 = 3w

Heavy Bolters 33% better

Vs T8-9:
Same roll to wound, so the Heavy Bolters inflict twice as much damage

Vs T10-13:
12 S5 = 2w
6 S7 = 2w

Damage is same

Vs T14+:
Same roll to wound, so the Heavy Bolters inflict twice as much damage

If you go to the trouble of building a Fire Raptor with an awesome looking pair of Reaper Batteries and pay the points for it, you're doing *worse* against everything other than T6 & T10-13.

Autocannons do 2 damage though. Are we accounting for that?

Also, where are you seeing the rule that allows bombs to be reloaded with CP?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Also, where are you seeing the rule that allows bombs to be reloaded with CP?

It's a death from the skies thing.

The Hellforged rule seems to represent vehicles that have been upgraded by the warpsmiths. Rather than being demonically possessed (as sometimes vehicles were in past editions and how the Daemon Bound are now in 8th) they seem to have had their power cores removed and replaced by engines powered by the warp itself. If you compare the explosion results of these vehicles with similar from the regular chaos index (preds and the LR variants can be used for this) they're the same, except that for Hellforged all psykers take double wounds. this implies their power cores are running off pure warp energy and an explosion tears a tiny hole in the warp that messes up psykers close by. Or they could be powered by daemons trapped inside them. The Machina Malifica rule would suggest this is the case as the demons trapped inside feed off victims that fall to the machines in battle. It could be either of these explanations or it could be both. The fact that the explosion rule has been replaced by Containment Breach suggests something is being contained and causes horrible stuff when it is breached - daemons.

So I'd say that Hellforged vehicles are weapons that have been "upgraded" by the warpsmiths to take advantage of some of the nature of chaos whilst keeping the warmachines otherwise mostly intact. The full Daemonic Possession stuff is now more restricted to certain warmachines. I wonder if we'll get an option for it again in the full codex?

This raises an interesting question about the Hellbrute. The Contemptor is now a regular marine dread with the power core swapped for a daemon battery so the guy inside is still a marine. Whereas the Hellbrute looks to be possessed, the same as possessed marines and warp talons (and the Decimator now). So chaos legions have probably lost the ability to inter their marines in dreadnoughts and have to resort to possession to keep them "alive". The contemptors and (now) deredeo's are relics of the HH and are still regular marines but with their shells upgraded by the dark mechanicum. Interesting if you're playing a fluff based list like I am with my AL. I don't want demons but I can cope with a limited amount of chaos upgrades to my warmachines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Autocannons do 2 damage though. Are we accounting for that?

reaper batteries do 1 dmg

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Autocannons do 2 damage though. Are we accounting for that?

Reapers are nerfed to 1D I'm afraid, presumably to avoid them being way more effective than Assault Cannon. BUT look at the wound rate (again, assuming perfect accuracy for the sake of brevity, adjust for BS)

T1-3: both wound on 2+, Assault Cannon causes 50% more wounds

T4-5: both wound on 3+, AC causes 50% more.

T6:
AC causes 3W
RA causes 2.67W

T7:
AC causes 2W
RA causes 2W

T8-11: both wound on 5+, AC causes 50% more.

T12-13:
AC causes 1W
RA causes 1.33W

T14+:
AC causes 1W
RA causes 0.67W

The only situation in which they have parity is against T7 (a common vehicle stat) and the only situation in which RA is superior is the tiny (nonexistent?) niche of T12-13. BUT whereas compared to quad Heavy Bolters RA are clearly worse, compared to AC they get an extra 12" range.

So: loyalist Terminators' heavy guy will outperform ours in a firefight, but our access to combi-weapons means we'll Plasma them to oblivion anyway. Our Terminators' heavy guy will underperform against anything that's not T7, BUT with split fire the extra range can open up different opportunities.

Helbrute riflemen are a joke, and loyalist Dreadnoughts will likely trade in their ACs for Twin Autocannons to have the longer range and higher damage output.

Can someone explain how rapiers work now my head hurts

say you have a unit of three e.g. 6 crew

once you deploy them does that now mean you have 6 separate units?!

Might keep mine cheap, 3 quad HB ones come in at 246pts
Marry that with a fire raptor

60 heavy bolter shots a turn, pew pew pew

Also I'm really liking that Scorpius. 6D3 shots with decent S, AP and D, all ignoring LOS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
Can someone explain how rapiers work now my head hurts

say you have a unit of three e.g. 6 crew

once you deploy them does that now mean you have 6 separate units?!

Yep, and the crew benefit from the same targeting restrictions as characters but are not actual Characters - so snipers can't hit them as they jump from gun to gun as and when flankers do their thing. Expect this to get FAQ'd along with the missing Hades option when metagames fill up with these magnificent gunbeasts.

Well i doubt that is gonna happen (the fill up) they went up massively in pts and are not as durable

Used to be T7 2w (+ using one CSM at the front to eat a hit), now T5 w4 and you can target the rapier individually...

they wont last long

i asked about the splitting unit thing because if that is the case the next rule does not make sense:
'Artillery:A Hellforged Rapier can only fire its ranged weapon if a friendly LEGIONChaos Space Marine Crewman model from the same unit is within 3"' if they split into two units how can the CSM be part of the same unit!?


I'm really looking forward to busting my fellblade out
8 lascannon shots
6 heavy bolter shots
d3 demolisher cannon shots

then 2d6 s8 -3 1dm (with a re-roll if over 5) OR 2 s14! -4 6dm!!! - if both shots hit thats killing a rhino dead on 2 rolls of a 2

Hmm. Well, the Rapier will probably be on top of a Ruin, so it's going to have a 2+ save on turn 1 and a 1+ save (1's always fail) after that. Plasma & hordes seem like they'll be common; they're now more robust against bolters, and whereas before they took 12 plasma hits to take out of a ruin they still take 12 on low power and 6 on high. So, not too bad, and when someone uses a full plasma squad's shooting to take out one artillery piece they're not wiping out a squad of marines.

Also the Rapiers being split up means damage from Mortal Wounds and multi-shot weapons are contained - if that overcharged Plasma squad rolls well, they're still only killing one.

But yeah, the way the data sheet is written breaks them. Gonna need a common sense negotiation on this until it gets FAQ'd - three times on one datasheet :-o

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Well, the Rapier will probably be on top of a Ruin, so it's going to have a 2+ save on turn 1 and a 1+ save (1's always fail) after that. Plasma & hordes seem like they'll be common; they're now more robust against bolters, and whereas before they took 12 plasma hits to take out of a ruin they still take 12 on low power and 6 on high. So, not too bad, and when someone uses a full plasma squad's shooting to take out one artillery piece they're not wiping out a squad of marines.

Also the Rapiers being split up means damage from Mortal Wounds and multi-shot weapons are contained - if that overcharged Plasma squad rolls well, they're still only killing one.

But yeah, the way the data sheet is written breaks them. Gonna need a common sense negotiation on this until it gets FAQ'd - three times on one datasheet :-o

Its weird because they (GW side of GW) had the valus wrath support battery rules for eldar and thats basically simple, just count the crew as part of the model... makes 100% more sense ruleswise

could of just given it 6 wounds and if its reduced to 2 it goes mental as per the daemonic rule bit to represent the crew snuffing it or something along those lines

any chance I can get a link to the leaks?