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Vostroyan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit they are in combat with.

Valhallan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit that is in combat.

If squad A is in combat then Squad B can't shoot into the combat with the Vostroyan order (unless B is in the same combat).
With the Valhallan order Squad B can shoot at the enemy unit that is fighting A without being in that combat.

 Ordana wrote:
Vostroyan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit they are in combat with.

Valhallan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit that is in combat.

If squad A is in combat then Squad B can't shoot into the combat with the Vostroyan order (unless B is in the same combat).
With the Valhallan order Squad B can shoot at the enemy unit that is fighting A without being in that combat.

So for Voystoryan, my unit A is in melee with genestealers. I can shoot them with unit A even though its in combat, then fight it with unit A. If I had another nearby unit, that unit would NOT be able to shoot those genestealers.

Valhallan, unit a A in combat with Genestealers, and another unit B can shoot into that combat and possibly kill my own guys from unit A. But unit A would not be able to shoot the genestealers.

 Dynas wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Vostroyan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit they are in combat with.

Valhallan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit that is in combat.

If squad A is in combat then Squad B can't shoot into the combat with the Vostroyan order (unless B is in the same combat).
With the Valhallan order Squad B can shoot at the enemy unit that is fighting A without being in that combat.

So for Voystoryan, my unit A is in melee with genestealers. I can shoot them with unit A even though its in combat, then fight it with unit A. If I had another nearby unit, that unit would NOT be able to shoot those genestealers.

Valhallan, unit a A in combat with Genestealers, and another unit B can shoot into that combat and possibly kill my own guys from unit A. But unit A would not be able to shoot the genestealers.

Correct, tho I believe if you Valhallan Ordered units A it would also be able to shoot (since the genestealers are within 1" of a friendly unit (themselves) tho they could kill themselves on 1's)

I believe the Valhallans order specifically must choose a different unit as a target as it does not allow you to fire while you are in combat either. There is a trade off, although personally I would much rather have Valhallans order.

Valhallans can bail out their tanks or other units and can use it on fresh units to bail out weakened ones.. The Vostroyans usually only get to use the order on units that have already been chewed up in combat and therefore won't do much.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I believe the Valhallans order specifically must choose a different unit as a target as it does not allow you to fire while you are in combat either. There is a trade off, although personally I would much rather have Valhallans order.

Valhallans can bail out their tanks or other units and can use it on fresh units to bail out weakened ones.. The Vostroyans usually only get to use the order on units that have already been chewed up in combat and therefore won't do much.

Good to know.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I believe the Valhallans order specifically must choose a different unit as a target as it does not allow you to fire while you are in combat either. There is a trade off, although personally I would much rather have Valhallans order.

Valhallans can bail out their tanks or other units and can use it on fresh units to bail out weakened ones.. The Vostroyans usually only get to use the order on units that have already been chewed up in combat and therefore won't do much.

Doh!
yes you are correct. the order overwrites the limitation on targeting units within 1" but doesn't allow you to shoot while within 1" yourself.

Valhallan doctrine would help with those conscripts morale as well, plus you could stick Pietrovs 45 on one of the commanders, making him (far as I'm concerned) the only real commissar we can get anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Off the current topic, but I've got a friendly tournament coming up with my gaming group, 2k, no LoWs (hurray!)

I'm going with a bog standard Catachan brigade - Straken, priest, hellhounds, mortars, etc - and a Cadian spearhead with BT/LC Pask, a BT/LC TC and 3 basilisks.

So far the list is sitting at 1600 even and I'm questioning what to fill the rest in with.

I have/could go with:
MT battalion - prime w/reliquary, psyker, 3x5 scions with plasma - 325

Or move some points around and take:
SM battalion - Smash Cap, jump Libby, 3x5 scouts - 414 (or a few more if I take HBs, ML)

I like scions for precision strikes, but scouts for board control and the marine characters for jumping out of the horde and busting face.

Or I could just take some bullgryns. After watching some of the So Cal open on twitch I'd like to try them, but would have to get/paint them.

This is an all comers list, so I'm trying to take a Swiss army knife approach.
Which do you all think would be my best option?

TankCmdr wrote:
Valhallan doctrine would help with those conscripts morale as well, plus you could stick Pietrovs 45 on one of the commanders, making him (far as I'm concerned) the only real commissar we can get anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Off the current topic, but I've got a friendly tournament coming up with my gaming group, 2k, no LoWs (hurray!)

I'm going with a bog standard Catachan brigade - Straken, priest, hellhounds, mortars, etc - and a Cadian spearhead with BT/LC Pask, a BT/LC TC and 3 basilisks.

So far the list is sitting at 1600 even and I'm questioning what to fill the rest in with.

I have/could go with:
MT battalion - prime w/reliquary, psyker, 3x5 scions with plasma - 325

Or move some points around and take:
SM battalion - Smash Cap, jump Libby, 3x5 scouts - 414 (or a few more if I take HBs, ML)

I like scions for precision strikes, but scouts for board control and the marine characters for jumping out of the horde and busting face.

Or I could just take some bullgryns. After watching some of the So Cal open on twitch I'd like to try them, but would have to get/paint them.

This is an all comers list, so I'm trying to take a Swiss army knife approach.
Which do you all think would be my best option?

Guilliman is 400 points...

Maybe a IK
Otherwise probably the bullgryns after the SO Cal they seemed to do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TankCmdr wrote:
Valhallan doctrine would help with those conscripts morale as well, plus you could stick Pietrovs 45 on one of the commanders, making him (far as I'm concerned) the only real commissar we can get anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Off the current topic, but I've got a friendly tournament coming up with my gaming group, 2k, no LoWs (hurray!)

I'm going with a bog standard Catachan brigade - Straken, priest, hellhounds, mortars, etc - and a Cadian spearhead with BT/LC Pask, a BT/LC TC and 3 basilisks.

So far the list is sitting at 1600 even and I'm questioning what to fill the rest in with.

I have/could go with:
MT battalion - prime w/reliquary, psyker, 3x5 scions with plasma - 325

Or move some points around and take:
SM battalion - Smash Cap, jump Libby, 3x5 scouts - 414 (or a few more if I take HBs, ML)

I like scions for precision strikes, but scouts for board control and the marine characters for jumping out of the horde and busting face.

Or I could just take some bullgryns. After watching some of the So Cal open on twitch I'd like to try them, but would have to get/paint them.

This is an all comers list, so I'm trying to take a Swiss army knife approach.
Which do you all think would be my best option?

Guilliman is 400 points...

Maybe a IK
Otherwise probably the bullgryns after the SO Cal they seemed to do well.

No LoWs, as I said, I appreciate the input though!

Yeah I'm leaning towards the bullgryns, but the 5cp for a battalion is tempting too

 Dynas wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Vostroyan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit they are in combat with.

Valhallan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit that is in combat.

If squad A is in combat then Squad B can't shoot into the combat with the Vostroyan order (unless B is in the same combat).
With the Valhallan order Squad B can shoot at the enemy unit that is fighting A without being in that combat.

So for Voystoryan, my unit A is in melee with genestealers. I can shoot them with unit A even though its in combat, then fight it with unit A. If I had another nearby unit, that unit would NOT be able to shoot those genestealers.

Valhallan, unit a A in combat with Genestealers, and another unit B can shoot into that combat and possibly kill my own guys from unit A. But unit A would not be able to shoot the genestealers.

which is why you use flamethrowers. We have somehow ended up at a point where the safest way to kill enemies who are mixed in with a friendly unit is to use flamethrowers, in defiance of all logic. that aside it means valhallan sws's with flamers have a use as backup to normal infantry squads.

The problem with flamers is that they cost as much as a plasma gun, which is beyond insane.

Vostroyan order is made to a unit within 1” of an enemy unit and they fire at the enemy unit within 1”.

Valhallan order is made to any unit and allows them to fire at any enemy unit that is within 1” of a friendly unit.

Take a leman russ in cc for example. The vostroyan order would do no good as a vehicle unit cannot get this order. The valhallan order would allow you to order an infantry squad to shoot at the unit attacking the leman russ.

 gbghg wrote:

 Dynas wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Vostroyan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit they are in combat with.

Valhallan Order lets a unit shoot their weapons at a unit that is in combat.

If squad A is in combat then Squad B can't shoot into the combat with the Vostroyan order (unless B is in the same combat).
With the Valhallan order Squad B can shoot at the enemy unit that is fighting A without being in that combat.

So for Voystoryan, my unit A is in melee with genestealers. I can shoot them with unit A even though its in combat, then fight it with unit A. If I had another nearby unit, that unit would NOT be able to shoot those genestealers.

Valhallan, unit a A in combat with Genestealers, and another unit B can shoot into that combat and possibly kill my own guys from unit A. But unit A would not be able to shoot the genestealers.

which is why you use flamethrowers. We have somehow ended up at a point where the safest way to kill enemies who are mixed in with a friendly unit is to use flamethrowers, in defiance of all logic. that aside it means valhallan sws's with flamers have a use as backup to normal infantry squads.

Speaking from experience, flamers are a terrible choice for this job. If you're using the order, it's because the unit you are bailing out either

A. Cannot fall back period

Or B. The unit cannot fall back and shoot.

This is because 9 times out of 10 your infantry are being charged and you can just fall back and "get back in the fight". The order is for the rare exceptions where something got around a screen, or you are truly locked in. It is something to be used in an emergency. An order that maybe gets used every 2-3 games, but when it gets used can win games. So let's think about the context the order would be used.

A. Unit cannot fall back period. This means you're either surrounded (orks, nids, chaos) or you are 'tri locked', which means you did a bad job at casualty removal. Usually in these instances you're facing a horde of weaker models, or a small squad of tough elite infantry. This makes the two ideal weapons regular guardsmen with lasguns, or plasma. Mortar HWS's are also good choices, since they have 6 times the range and can bail out pretty anything in your deployment. Youll often find yourself using the grenade strategem here by the way, as it allows you a sort of poor man's FRFSRF that you normally can't get when firing into combat. Flamers can theoretically do it, but remember you're paying 7pts for 3-4 bolter hits on average, that's two guardsmen who could be putting out more lasgun shots, serve as wounds, or just be a plasma. Which brings me to why the plasma is the better weapon choice. If the squad is locked in with something nasty, you'll want a more powerful weapon. Yes, a 1 will not only kill the Gunner as well as hit a friendly, but these are guardsmen, dying is what they do, and you don't have to overcharge. In some instances you WANT to hit your own models, as you can intentionally kill your own unit to remove the enemy assault unit's protection from being shot. Plasma and lasguns can both pull that duty well for different reasons. Flamers don't give you that option.

B. Something has charged a unit that cannot fall back and shoot, aka you have a tank in combat. Again, if it's a chaff kind of unit, lasguns will do more than the equivalent points you'd spend on a flamer equipped guardsman. If it's a hard target (enemy character, elite infantry, emprah help you a monster/enemy vehicle) then you need plasma to drop the target in question. Again, there is a risk here, but think of the trade off. Which is going to have more firepower in the long run? A few plasma guardsmen, or a leman Russ battletank? And keep in mind, your tanks degrade slower, and I'd imagine to some degree the trait was designed with this strategy in mind. I've had Russe's take a couple of plasma shots to the face to "save" them from combat more times than I care to count, it's worth it to get them back in the fight that turn. If you can shoot them out of combat, they never fell back, and now they can shoot too.

And keep in mind, the order says "friendly units locked in combat." Not friendly <regiment> or <Astra militarum> units, just friendly units. This order actually interacts with any friendly Imperium allied unit. This means you can pull some really creative combos that opponents do not expect. Primarily this let's you bail out fire support units that cannot fall back, like space marine or admech tanks, but every so often you'll find yourself in these bizarre, 1 in a million instances where being able to fire into combat let's you clear an objective, or free an Armiger Warglaive to make a melta shot into an enemy tank nearby and then charge it, etc. It's a hard thing to quantify, but you'll know it when you see it.

It comes up way less these days with all the nerfs to turn 1 alpha charges, but you'll still see games where genestealers hit your lines turn 1 or eldar jetbikes just hop over your screen and then multicharge a tank line. When things go south, it's a nice bit of utility to have. Plus it just feels right as IG, being able to say "it's their only hope" and firing into combat, willingly sacrificing a few men to friendly fire to save the rest from a far worse fate, or risking damage to your own tank because to not do so would doom the whole army to being overrun next turn.

The Vostroyans order on the other hand doesn't really do anything special. Most of the time you would just fall back and Get Back In the Fight anyways, and if you've been locked in combat no squad is going to have the firepower it needs to bail itself out. If the order worked on tanks it'd be amazing and would do something truly unique and useful, but alas it doesn't. I get what it's meant to represent, the Vostroyans experience in urban combat, it just doesn't accomplish much mechanically.

 Dynas wrote:

Stratgems
Stratagem for T1 Cover save if go 2nd
Firstborn Pride Every turn
Take Cover (does this stack with the new Stratagem that is army wide cover, i think not.)
Fight to the Death if needed for morale
Genadiers and Vengenace for cadia for overwatch
Consodliate Squads
Aeriel SPotter each turn for Basilisk
Crush them on Hellhounds each turn

The take cover strategem does not actually give you cover, just +1 to saves(including invul saves). So it does stack with new first turn cover strategem as they get cover bonus for +1 and take cover bonus for another +1

Ecdain wrote:

 Dynas wrote:

Stratgems
Stratagem for T1 Cover save if go 2nd
Firstborn Pride Every turn
Take Cover (does this stack with the new Stratagem that is army wide cover, i think not.)
Fight to the Death if needed for morale
Genadiers and Vengenace for cadia for overwatch
Consodliate Squads
Aeriel SPotter each turn for Basilisk
Crush them on Hellhounds each turn

The take cover strategem does not actually give you cover, just +1 to saves(including invul saves). So it does stack with new first turn cover strategem as they get cover bonus for +1 and take cover bonus for another +1

Please read the updated faq. Take Cover no longer applies to invul saves.

Hi all. Doing an escalation league at my local GW, starting with start collecting boxes. I decided to go with guard, and I'm trying to figure out what variant to build the russ as. I wanted to do a punisher, but didn't realize the kits are separated out the way they are. So I'm trying to decide the better "take all comers" approach and I'm feeling like it's between the battle cannon and the exterminator autocannon. And I think the sponsons will probably be built to supplement whatever the turret is, if battle cannon then probably plasma cannons, if autocannon then probably heavy bolters plus heavy bolter hull weapon. Does that sound right? Or should I just go for plasma cannons no matter what?

Battle tank all the way, the exterminator (the autocannon variant) is awful and I believe it costs more too. The regular tank cannon can handle just about anything to some degree, especially at lower pts levels. The only other tanks that quite match it are the punisher and the executioner, but they both have far reduced range.

What regiment are you looking at running? Certain regiments make certain loadouts better or worse. For example, a Catachan tank would get more mileage out of a battle cannon than a punisher cannon, while a Cadian tank can run plasma more safely, while a Tallarn tank can be far more mobile with 0 penalties, encouraging shorter range guns and sponsons.

Catachan is optimised with plasma but requires harker as a tax

U02dah4 wrote:
Catachan is optimised with plasma but requires harker as a tax

Yeah but since he gives that to your whole army it's not a big loss, plus he has a souped up heavy bolter of his own.

Alternatively run the tank as a tank commander and then you have your reroll baked in

I haven't decided on a regiment yet, honestly. Was kinda defaulting to cadian for now

Has anyone done a full analysis of these tournament-winning Bullgryns? I haven't run down the Twitch footage yet and I know others have. I have three and would love more (they're so great to build and paint, some of my favorite sculpts of late), but they are missing their buddy Celestine since the last FAQ and I'd love to build some extra punch back into them.

 MacPhail wrote:
Has anyone done a full analysis of these tournament-winning Bullgryns? I haven't run down the Twitch footage yet and I know others have. I have three and would love more (they're so great to build and paint, some of my favorite sculpts of late), but they are missing their buddy Celestine since the last FAQ and I'd love to build some extra punch back into them.

I've been experimenting with them a lot lately, trying different things and tweaking/optimizing their loadout.

I've pinned down what works best (at least for me) and I'm having a LOT of success with them. Here are some things I've found:

-Unit size
You need to take a good sized unit. I would say a minimum of 6 and I personally have been taking a max squad of 9. If you take less, buffs and stratagems start to become a lot less efficient on them and once you start taking a casualty or two, their effectiveness just plummets into disappointment.

-Loadout
Power Mauls all the way, without doubt. This is what makes them do work. No other weapon is an option. For shields, I find a mix is best. Originally I was doing half-and-half slabshields/brute shields. But now I have found that overall the slabshield is more useful. You START OUT with a 2+ armor save, but in practice its actually a 1+ or 0+ save (or even -1+ !!!) because you will be buffing them with Prepared Positions, Take Cover!, and/or Psychic Barrier. This means that if you get alpha-struck, weapons with -1 or -2 AP still give you a 2+ save, AP -3 gives you a 3+ save and it takes AP -4 to get you to a 4+ save which is what the brute shield would have provided. The Brute shields only come into play if you get hit with ridiculous -5 AP guns or -3/-4 AP close combat weapons. So I am now taking a ratio of 2:1 Slabshields to Bruteshields. A unit of 6 would have 4 slab shields / 2 brute shields and 9 would be 6 and 3.

-Support
At bare minimum, a Priest and one Psyker with Psychic Barrier are needed to get good effectiveness out of the Bulls. If you go all-out like me, you'll want 3 Primaris Psykers who also get extra Force Stave attacks from the Priest as well as Nightshroud and Mental Fortitude. These buffs put their killing power and durability through the roof and they can literally take on anything in close combat, including Knight Gallants, Primarchs, Bloodletter Bombs, etc.


-The Rest of the Army
The Bullgryns work best as a counter-charge unit who can start advancing to take over the mid-field once they have thoroughly beat down any in-your-face threats. They are footsloggers and thus kind of slow. What this means is, the other 1600 points of your army needs to be packing some extreme firepower to the point where you can outshoot most other armies. Because you should be able to outshoot your opponent, this will force him into a very difficult decision. He only really has 3 options; 1) try to shoot back at you, which he will lose since you can outshoot him, 2) advance on you and try to assault and lock you up, which entails getting stuck in with the bullgryn deathstar, or 3) don't try to fight at all and just hide and stay away, which means you can continue to pound away with firepower and the Bullgryns can move out and advance on him.


That's really what the BullgrynStar is really all about, putting your opponent into a very difficult position where his available options are not ideal and can easily lead to defeat. The Bullgryns take up about a quarter of your army and represent a nigh-unkillable close combat threat, and the other three-quarters of your army is extreme firepower that can't easily be outshot.

They are the definition of "Come at me Bro"

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Catachan is optimised with plasma but requires harker as a tax

Yeah but since he gives that to your whole army it's not a big loss, plus he has a souped up heavy bolter of his own.

Alternatively run the tank as a tank commander and then you have your reroll baked in

LOL harker is not a tax. 50 points to fill an elite slot is a bargin. What do you get for it? A good shooter that buffs your army? He's auto include.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question for you guys.

What are your preferred load-outs for tarox primes?
Punisher cannon and autocannons?
or
Punisher cannon and hotshot volley?

Jacksmiles wrote:
I haven't decided on a regiment yet, honestly. Was kinda defaulting to cadian for now

Magnatize the main gun and sponsons. Youtube it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:
Has anyone done a full analysis of these tournament-winning Bullgryns? I haven't run down the Twitch footage yet and I know others have. I have three and would love more (they're so great to build and paint, some of my favorite sculpts of late), but they are missing their buddy Celestine since the last FAQ and I'd love to build some extra punch back into them.

If you are referring to Brandon Grants SoCal list then yeah.

Basically he ran 9 of them all with mauls 5 slab, 4 brute shields. Priest for attack buff, primaris pysker for +1 save or -1 to hit buff. Act as a hammer unit for countercharges and generally used them to hold the middle of the board.

Best regiment is Catachan, by far.

Not only those infamous S4 A3 LD8 guardsmen, but also reroll attacks artilery and tanks. And they have Harker.

Catachans are the reason so many people cry very loudly to nerf the infantry squad and the imperial guard in general. Dont blame them, because the infantry man for 4 points really is a joke, even with the added cost of straken and priest.

Sadly the other regiments now never make it to the top tournament positions. Not counting the heroic 32 mortar cadia for command points...

So, if you are looking for strong regiment, catachans is the best choice.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Catachan is optimised with plasma but requires harker as a tax

Yeah but since he gives that to your whole army it's not a big loss, plus he has a souped up heavy bolter of his own.

Alternatively run the tank as a tank commander and then you have your reroll baked in

LOL harker is not a tax. 50 points to fill an elite slot is a bargin. What do you get for it? A good shooter that buffs your army? He's auto include.

To be fair, filling an Elite slot is only valuable if you're running a Vanguard or Brigade. Otherwise, it's nothing special. Now, if he was a Troop or HQ...

And I'd hardly consider a single Heavy Bolter to be a "good shooter"-it's not bad, but it's rarely, if ever, gonna tip the scales in your favor compared to other shooting.

The ONLY reason Harker is such a good take is reroll 1s in shooting. Which is definitely great-but for 50 points... How many points is a Space Marine Captain?

A SM cpt has much more impact and is more survivable. Take 1 tank harker isnt worth it but 3 and hes good.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Catachan is optimised with plasma but requires harker as a tax

Yeah but since he gives that to your whole army it's not a big loss, plus he has a souped up heavy bolter of his own.

Alternatively run the tank as a tank commander and then you have your reroll baked in

LOL harker is not a tax. 50 points to fill an elite slot is a bargin. What do you get for it? A good shooter that buffs your army? He's auto include.

To be fair, filling an Elite slot is only valuable if you're running a Vanguard or Brigade. Otherwise, it's nothing special. Now, if he was a Troop or HQ...

And I'd hardly consider a single Heavy Bolter to be a "good shooter"-it's not bad, but it's rarely, if ever, gonna tip the scales in your favor compared to other shooting.

The ONLY reason Harker is such a good take is reroll 1s in shooting. Which is definitely great-but for 50 points... How many points is a Space Marine Captain?

It's an Ap-2 HB though with BS2+ reroll 1's. It's not amazing but it's basically free when you consider his buff.

True - filling elite in most armies is useless but in an army like IG where filling out brigades is not only viable but optimal - it has a lot of value.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Catachan is optimised with plasma but requires harker as a tax

Yeah but since he gives that to your whole army it's not a big loss, plus he has a souped up heavy bolter of his own.

Alternatively run the tank as a tank commander and then you have your reroll baked in

LOL harker is not a tax. 50 points to fill an elite slot is a bargin. What do you get for it? A good shooter that buffs your army? He's auto include.

To be fair, filling an Elite slot is only valuable if you're running a Vanguard or Brigade. Otherwise, it's nothing special. Now, if he was a Troop or HQ...

And I'd hardly consider a single Heavy Bolter to be a "good shooter"-it's not bad, but it's rarely, if ever, gonna tip the scales in your favor compared to other shooting.

The ONLY reason Harker is such a good take is reroll 1s in shooting. Which is definitely great-but for 50 points... How many points is a Space Marine Captain?

It's an Ap-2 HB though with BS2+ reroll 1's. It's not amazing but it's basically free when you consider his buff.

True - filling elite in most armies is useless but in an army like IG where filling out brigades is not only viable but optimal - it has a lot of value.

Forgot it had AP-2.

But he's NOT BS 2+. He's only 3+.

And the point I'm making is that, for over half the points, you get someone who's only, at best, half as durable as a captain, with a worse buff, similar melee, and better shooting.

Have you tried SWS ? I can't find a good reason to use them. Except with flamers, but they would still be 6 T3 5+ guys with short ranged weapons...
And I was thinking about a priest + 6 crusaders as a little "counter assault" force in my lines.