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 Peregrine wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
The other thing that appeals about the Mordian is their Heavy Weapon Mortar squads. The order that allow the weapon the fire again on a 6 is crazy with a 3 mortar squad. I

Err, what? Either you are very confused here or I am.

Volley fire is worded on such a way that on 6's to hit you can fire the weapon again... so every 6 to hit is another d6 shots.

 Horst wrote:
Volley fire is worded on such a way that on 6's to hit you can fire the weapon again... so every 6 to hit is another d6 shots.

That's a stratagem, not an order. And it sucks on mortars. On a 6 to hit you generate another 1.75 hits. For a full squad of mortars that's an average of 3.06 additional bolter hits for 1 CP. Or you could give that to an infantry squad with FRFSRF and get 6.6666 more lasgun hits, 13.3333 if you're within 12". Or you could spend that 1 CP on something else entirely. For example, re-rolling a 1 for damage on a lascannon is likely to have more of an impact on the game than those ~3 bolter hits. Maybe you throw it on mortars if you have plenty of CP and no better use for it, but I can't imagine making list building choices with the intent to use it.

 Horst wrote:

Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary). The Tallarn are definitely more survivable, but I've re-rolled 4-5 shots into twice that enough that I really appreciate the Cadian tanks.

If we are aren't taking into account stratagems then I feel Catachan tank commanders offer the best of both worlds, being able to naturally reroll shots on turret (AND sponson) and being able to move and order reroll 1s. The reason Cadian might be better if you factor in Overlapping Fields stratagem or vs chaos.

 Horst wrote:


It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight. So it doesn't matter if you can see me through a window in a building, the building blocks line of sight to my tank.

Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary). The Tallarn are definitely more survivable, but I've re-rolled 4-5 shots into twice that enough that I really appreciate the Cadian tanks.

Or play on modern 40k terrain that's designed to ensure there's no stupid holes that make the terrain pieces worthless in 40k.

Just to clarify about the mordian strat, does EVERY 6 to hit allow firing the weapon again, or is it just one per weapon? I'd been rolling each lasgun individually (which was painful) to see if each generated a 6 to hit.

In any case the best target is a combined infantry squads with FRFSRF and if you're playing chaos, vengeance for cadia. I believe, on average, a full squad of lasguns will one-round a daemon prince with these buffs up haha (even if you're playing it the more conservative way)

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just to clarify about the mordian strat, does EVERY 6 to hit allow firing the weapon again, or is it just one per weapon? I'd been rolling each lasgun individually (which was painful) to see if each generated a 6 to hit.

In any case the best target is a combined infantry squads with FRFSRF and if you're playing chaos, vengeance for cadia. I believe, on average, a full squad of lasguns will one-round a daemon prince with these buffs up haha (even if you're playing it the more conservative way)

"Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model in that unit that model can immediately shoot again with the same weapn at the same target"

It means a guards man could theoretically shoot 20 times with FRFSRF if he rolled 4 x 6s first time...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just to clarify about the mordian strat, does EVERY 6 to hit allow firing the weapon again, or is it just one per weapon? I'd been rolling each lasgun individually (which was painful) to see if each generated a 6 to hit.

In any case the best target is a combined infantry squads with FRFSRF and if you're playing chaos, vengeance for cadia. I believe, on average, a full squad of lasguns will one-round a daemon prince with these buffs up haha (even if you're playing it the more conservative way)

I love the idea of comboing it with Vengence for Cadia. It almost makes me want to take laurels of command so I can order FRFSRF AND the mordian strat to target characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Volley fire is worded on such a way that on 6's to hit you can fire the weapon again... so every 6 to hit is another d6 shots.

That's a stratagem, not an order. And it sucks on mortars. On a 6 to hit you generate another 1.75 hits. For a full squad of mortars that's an average of 3.06 additional bolter hits for 1 CP. Or you could give that to an infantry squad with FRFSRF and get 6.6666 more lasgun hits, 13.3333 if you're within 12". Or you could spend that 1 CP on something else entirely. For example, re-rolling a 1 for damage on a lascannon is likely to have more of an impact on the game than those ~3 bolter hits. Maybe you throw it on mortars if you have plenty of CP and no better use for it, but I can't imagine making list building choices with the intent to use it.

Apologies it is a strat and not an order.

However I don't think its wasted on a mortar. The ability to hide behind LoS in ITC is invaluable and the 48" range is quality. The "theoretical" 108 shots is nothing to be sneezed at. If someone was within 12" of an infantry squad then yes I would use it on them but hopefully T1 they're not that close yet.

Good stuff, looks like it's even more powerful that I'd realised then! Shame -1 to hit kills it dead otherwise it's be great at smashing plaguebearer screens...

Also I start with 18CP with possible points regen from warlord so the odd 1Cp strat won't break me. I'm convinced Knight Strats are going to be nerfed so I'll end up have a lot more to spend. (the 3Cp normally spend on order of companions or the 3CP for rotate shields will have to be spent somewhere

I've set aside 85 points for an assassin too which could pay for itself CP wise with the 1CP strat that earns me 2CP for killing a character (3 if it was the warlord). Soften up the character with the "form firing squad" order and finish him off with a vindicares sniper round for an easy Headhunter +2 CP...




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 DoomMouse wrote:
Good stuff, looks like it's even more powerful that I'd realised then! Shame -1 to hit kills it dead otherwise it's be great at smashing plaguebearer screens...

Ya thats a good point. I played plague bearers blobs twice this weekend. Any -1 to hit for my army is a pain. I'm investigating the House Mortan Knight instead of Raven purely for the 1CP strat that ignores negatives to hit. It will allow at least some of my army to fire at full.

Hi everyone.

Looking to get back into the hobby slowly with Imperial Guard.

I wanted to start small (750pts is my aim) and then possibly expand into a larger army with Imperial Knights and/or Tanks rather than more blobs of troops. (Not a big fan of huge blobs of infantry).

My hope is to make an artillery-themed army that is still viable.
With the limited knowledge I have, this is something that I was able to draft up:


Any suggestions would be great as I'm looking to maybe start off with the Start Collecting box

If I'm going the totally wrong direction, any guidance greatly appreciated!

CaptainO wrote:
The ability to hide behind LoS in ITC is invaluable and the 48" range is quality. The "theoretical" 108 shots is nothing to be sneezed at. If someone was within 12" of an infantry squad then yes I would use it on them but hopefully T1 they're not that close yet.

It absolutely is wasted on a mortar squad. Sure, you have 48" range on a cheap unit and that's good in ITC but mortars are good because they're cheap. They put out fairly low total firepower, you just get a squad of them for 30 points. So you're spending that CP to buff a 30-point objective camper instead of somewhere that it can have a much greater effect. And in the process you're making your 30-point unit no longer cheap.

And no, don't even bother talking about 108 shots. There is essentially zero chance of that ever happening. As I stated previously, the average result of spending that 1 CP is an additional ~3 STR 4 AP - hits. IOW, almost nothing.

I mean, to put this into context and consider this hypothetical stratagem:

Space Marine Fire Support - 1 CP

The might of the space marines crashes down upon the foes of the Imperial Guard, in the form of a single tactical marine and her boltgun arriving to attack targets marked by your forces. Use this stratagem after one of your heavy weapon squads armed with mortars finishes an attack. The space marine deals 1D6 automatic bolter hits (STR 4 AP -) to the target of that attack.

Would anyone use this stratagem? no. And this is a significantly better version of what you actually get, dealing an average of 3.5 bolter hits instead of 3.06.

The odds of getting the maximum, which is actually 126 shots, is...

(1/6)^21, or .00000000000000456%.

That's percentage. Add two zeroes for the odds expressed as a regular number.

I honestly doubted your math peregrine, because it seems like it should be more, so I ran through some very rough mental math, and yea... 10.5 shots yield maybe 2 6's to hit, which is 7 shots, which is 3.5 more hits. Kinda gakky. You're way better off with Cadian mortars, since take aim rerolls on 3 mortar squads give about twice that for no CP cost.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The odds of getting the maximum, which is actually 126 shots, is...

(1/6)^21, or .00000000000000456%.

That's percentage. Add two zeroes for the odds expressed as a regular number.

You are of course right 126 possible shots




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm take Bobby G for reroll 1s on effectively the entire army (including my knight and Vindicare assassin)

I'd also give them the reroll 1s to wound order.

I start with 18 CP so 1CP to give the mortars a few more shots doesn't break the bank. I'd definitely rather use the strat on a squad that can FRFSRF at 12" (which would hopefull be within 12" of Bobby G for reroll1s) but if I go first I might as well try an alpha strike to the max particularly if there are units our of LoS.

Can anyone confirm or deny that for the purposes of making Bobby G my warlord and gaining those extra 3 CP does an auxilary super heavy detachment count as battle forged. I get that other units don't get house/regiment/chapter benefits if they're in an auxillary super heavy detachment but is it at least battle forged.

CaptainO wrote:
Can anyone confirm or deny that for the purposes of making Bobby G my warlord and gaining those extra 3 CP does an auxilary super heavy detachment count as battle forged. I get that other units don't get house/regiment/chapter benefits if they're in an auxillary super heavy detachment but is it at least battle forged.

Yes, you can do that.

What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.

 Dynas wrote:
What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.

There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.

There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.

I wouldn't say that, some of the Vigilus ones are also useful.

 Horst wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.

There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.

I wouldn't say that, some of the Vigilus ones are also useful.

In fairness, he said "Pure Guard", which excludes Vigilus.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.

There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.

I wouldn't say that, some of the Vigilus ones are also useful.

In fairness, he said "Pure Guard", which excludes Vigilus.

I would think that “pure guard codex” would exclude Vigilus, not just “pure guard.”

Please let's not discuss RAW vs RAI on people's comments now, lol.

 Dynas wrote:
What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.

There's a couple of ones I often find myself using in the right situation:

- Crush them on Baneblade-variants.
- Grenadiers, especially on Ogryns/Bullgryns.
- Jury Rigging.
- I.C. Armory.
- Command tank
- Inspired Tactics.
- Defensive Gunners.
- Take Cover.
- Vengeance for Cadia. (If up against Chaos.)

Admittedly very few of the guard strategems are game changing outside of overlapping fields. Maybe a basilisk firing twice. And as you mentioned, Vengance for Cadia against Chaos. The rest probably fall into the situational or quality of life category.

Yeah, its kind of a shame we can have tons of CP but not able to use them very well. I guess our great units make up for it. If we had the same units and, say, Ork level stratagems we would be bonkers broken.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.

There's a couple of ones I often find myself using in the right situation:

- Crush them on Baneblade-variants.
- Grenadiers, especially on Ogryns/Bullgryns.
- Jury Rigging.
- I.C. Armory.
- Command tank
- Inspired Tactics.
- Defensive Gunners.
- Take Cover.
- Vengeance for Cadia. (If up against Chaos.)

Oh i like the Grenadiers for Bullgryns, im always doing nothing with them in the shooting phase.

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah, its kind of a shame we can have tons of CP but not able to use them very well. I guess our great units make up for it. If we had the same units and, say, Ork level stratagems we would be bonkers broken.

It kind of reaffirms the idea that GW intended Guard to be an allied army. They're perfectly designed for it.

Since vigilus came out I've been playing the fire twice strat and areal spotter on either my bassie or wyvern...so fire the big gun twice, reroll misses and no cover save - you bet! And if you're a wyvern reroll wounds. It's not cheap (4cp) but wow what a great first turn alpha strike...I also throw in the Vigilus relic that ignores cover Outside of that yeah nothing really shiny for us in the way of strats that make you go "omg this army is so broken when I play this one strat!"

 Horst wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah, its kind of a shame we can have tons of CP but not able to use them very well. I guess our great units make up for it. If we had the same units and, say, Ork level stratagems we would be bonkers broken.

It kind of reaffirms the idea that GW intended Guard to be an allied army. They're perfectly designed for it.

Preemptive TL;DR just because we don't have insanely busted strategems doesn't mean ours aren't useful. Especially since we don't need them as a crutch to function like blood Angels or knights.

I don't feel that's the intent. Quite the opposite, I think IG is one of the only army's where strategems are probably working as intended. An army shouldn't need to rely solely on strategems to function, and they knew IG would have a ton of CP going in too. Instead of a few game breaking strategems *cough*most codexes* IG just has a ton of pretty good to decent strategems for a pure army, they're just not game changing in and of themselves. We don't have anything in the same ballpark as what knights get for example, but we dont really need it.

And that's ignoring the fact that our strategems really aren't bad if you know what you're doing. Yes, some like Fire on my Position or Preliminary Bombardment can be pretty meh, but seriously read most of our strategems and tell me most codexes wouldn't want them.

-Defensive Gunners -use it almost every game to stop a charge or even just intimidate someone into hanging back

-Aerial Spotter makes a Vigilus Wyvern insane and can be very powerful in smaller games

-Consolidate squads has a ton of utility when it comes to orders and abilities for dirt cheap and denying kill points

-Mobile Command Vehicle will be situational for certain armored lists and protecting commanders from being sniped

-Inspired Tactics is self explanatory

-Take Cover is still powerful and that's after it's been nerfed TWICE

-Grenadiers is bonkers on Demolition SWS's or Bullgryns and can be very good in niche situations where you need FRFSRF but need to pull another order

-Fight to the death is pretty much Insane Bravery for half the price, good for keeping a squad on objectives

-Vengence for Cadia is a giant middle finger to chaos

-Overlapping Fields of Fire - duh

-Volley Fire on the right squad, absolutely disgusting

-Firstborn Pride can be really powerful with tank commanders or even just helping mitigate eldar shenanigans

-Superior Intelligence situationally can save your bacon

-Ambush got nerfed twice but if the beta reserve rules get changed it'll be big just like it was pre Nerf. Yeah I can only outflank one tank commander/baneblade or 3 normal tanks with some infantry but if you can't find use for that you need some imagination

-Armored fist - right list, it has a place. Bare minimum you can use Bring it Down and reroll 1's to hit and wound or FRFSRF and reroll 1's.

-Command Reroll - you laugh but name one other army that can just recklessly spam this like we can.

-Prepared Positions - not useful against every army, but when it works its huge. Leman Russe's on a native 2+ save and an army of carapace armored guardsmen is a heck of a thing.


For the vast majority, it's no Order of Companions, but you guys need to remember 3 things.

1. All but one of those strategems cost less than 3 cp, and most cost only one,

2. We have the most CP of any army in the game. I may not have an order of companions level ability, but I'm not going to have my CP blown turn 1 and be majorly nerfed afterwards. I've had games where I was still blowing CP turn 7, and when the opponent has none to respond with even just rerolling a die or two can be big. Most armies are getting to the point where they need to plan their cp use out by turn just so they don't waste it. Meanwhile with guard we have a ton of wiggle room to use the odd reroll or opportunistic ability without wrecking our basic strategy.

3. Orders are pretty much strategems, except we can do as many as we want per turn and do each one multiple times. I mean think about it, Fix Bayonets in any other army costs 3cp and happens at the end of the fight phase. Move!Move!Move! Would easily be worth 2-3cp in most codexes, and most of the others either make perfect sense as a strategem or literally are strategems in other armies.

So no, we don't have anything insane like letting Ogryn fight twice in the fight phase, but do we really need it? Our strategems are very good for what we need and we're extremely fortunate that the vast majority of IG armies could lose strategems tomorrow and be mostly unaffected. Tell any other army they're losing their strategems and they'd have a heart attack. For almost every other army, strategems come in two flavors, crutch or completely useless. Many armies at the competitive level literally cannot function without them. Guard armies on the other hand like having strategems for flexibility and utility, but don't really rely on them much, aside from niche cases like Tallarn Shadowswords or Vigulus shenanigans. Don't get me wrong, there are IG lists that make very clever use of strategems to push their list that much harder. I just think it's a good thing we can make a list and not have to build it from the ground up cheesing strategems interactions in order to get by, especially in casual play.

Not counting the basic stratagems that everyone uses:

My IG have at least 10 stratagems that I would consider "useful but somewhat situational". Nothing even remotely broken or must-use.

My Thousand Sons and World Eaters have 1 stratagem that is downright broken, the rest are pointless or meh at best.

My Salamanders have 2 stratagems that I'd consider "useful but situational", with the rest being mostly pointless or extremely situational.

(Haven't played Eldar enough in 8th to rate their Stratagems.)

Out of the 4 armies I regularly play, I think that IG are in the best spot in regards to stratagems. They have no auto-use, nothing broken, *but* quite a few that are useful.
We shouldn't strive to be like other armies - other armies should strive to be like us. I hate the fact that my Thousand Sons/WE wants to use VotLW as often as possible and nothing else. It's super boring.

And yes, I'm aware that I'm writing essentially "I prefer X because it's not overpowered" in a tactica-thread on dakkadakka - where anything that won't win you tournaments is labeled as "useless" - so if you're in the WAAC-camp, go ahead and scoff at my opinion.

Vengence for cadia is a great strat (obviously just against chaos but still). Combo it with the vigalus artillery shoot twice to bring the pain.

Hi All!

Would like to hear some feedback to this tourny list:
Total points : 1499
Powerlevel: 97
CP’s: 13 – 1 = 12

Tallarn: Battalion Detachment - 698 Pts (PL 48)
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Tank Commander, Punisher gatling cannon, Heavy bolter, 2 Heavy bolters, Heavy stubber, Hunter-killer missile - - - > 194 Pts (PL 13)

Tank Commander, Punisher gatling cannon, Heavy bolter, 2 Heavy bolters, Hunter-killer missile - - - > 192 Pts (PL 13)

Tank Commander, Punisher gatling cannon, Heavy bolter, 2 Heavy bolters, Hunter-killer missile - - - > 192 Pts (PL 13)

*************** 3 Troops ***************
Infantry Squad
+ Sergeant, Chainsword, Laspistol -> 0 Pts. - - - > 40 Pts (PL 3)

Infantry Squad
+ Sergeant, Chainsword, Laspistol -> 0 Pts. - - - > 40 Pts (PL 3)

Infantry Squad
+ Sergeant, Chainsword, Laspistol -> 0 Pts. - - - > 40 Pts (PL 3)

Cadian: Battalion Detachment - 377 Pts (PL 26)
Vigilus Defiant: Emperor’s Fist Tank Company
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Knight Commander Pask, Punisher gatling cannon, Heavy bolter, 2 Heavy bolters, Hunter-killer missile - - - > 227 Pts (PL 14)

Company Commander [WARLORD]
+ Chainsword, Laspistol -> 0 Pts.
+ Warlordtrait: Grand Strategist -> 0 Pts. - - - > 30 Pts (PL 3)

*************** 3 Troops ***************
Infantry Squad
+ Sergeant, Chainsword, Laspistol -> 0 Pts. - - - > 40 Pts (PL 3)

Infantry Squad
+ Sergeant, Chainsword, Laspistol -> 0 Pts. - - - > 40 Pts (PL 3)

Infantry Squad
+ Sergeant, Chainsword, Laspistol -> 0 Pts. - - - > 40 Pts (PL 3)

IMPERIUM: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 442 Pts (PL 23)
*************** 1 Lord of War ***************
Knight Warden, Avenger gatling cannon, Ironstorm missile pod, Reaper Chainsword, Heavy stubber - - - > 422 Pts (PL 23)


Pask is part of the Tank Company becuase of the movement gem.

Thx in advance.