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 UMGuy wrote:
From the looks ut will be 2 battlecannon/eradicator/ac LR and 1 demolisher/punisher/executioner.

They are doing great, as TCs. For the points, there is no reason not to make them TCs, you get +1 bs and can issue reroll 1s or rerolls number of shots everyturn. Its incredibly strong. They just get targeted fast

I think by issue reroll 1's/reroll shots you meant to say issue move shoot move. Tallarn TCs are amazing. Nothing more glorious than sniping out Broadsides who can do literally nothing as you pop in and out of cover with impunity.

Yeah, re-roll 1s is nice to have for the times when you don't need to move but JSJ tanks are amazing as long as you have sufficient LOS blocking terrain on the table. It doesn't show up in the dice math, but in a real game I'm taking Tallarn vehicles every time. IMO it's the strongest regimental doctrine, by far, for vehicles other than LoW.

Any advice in fighting DG with GI ? No pox hordes, mainly DP, leviathan dread, plagueburters and marines in rhino !

What game type and what are you bringing?

Screening will be key here. T1 i would puah up with my 1st line of screen. Shoot priority units, depending on the lev dread and what you have, i might just ignore them. They have a tough invul, T8, good amount of wounds. Unless you run pack strong AT with range, focus on everything else and play the mission. After your screen gets charged, have them fall back and shoot whatever charged you. DPs are strong, but are wasted killing guardsmen.

Watch for units with fly and try to get 4" distance between your screens to avoid consolidation shenanigans

Hi all! I follow the post for some time (I'm also a crazy guard)

I would like to take ideas, to make a very competitive list (itc format and forge world) to 2000 points.

I think of two approaches ... one of 3 Low's, 2 Vultures .... or something more typical, with Leman russ commanders, infantry, mortars, Bullgryns ... although the latter I think gives many kill points for this format.

Some ultra competitive ideas?

Could do 4 cadian tank commanders (including pask and relic battle cannon) with 2 wyverns and 2 basis from emperors wrath artillery fronted by 90 conscripts next to the valhallan relic for scoring and screening? Lower kill points with conscripts instead of infantry squads

Leman Russ whit Battle canonsa all? Or 1 (pask) whit punisher?

Basilisk better than manticores ?

Punishers work fine, though I prefer vostroyan for a punisher as often 24 inch range exposes you to reprisals. You need some decent anti infantry and a punisher or two can do that. Against plaguebearers, the vengeance for cadia strat plus vostroyan strat on average kills about 20 models which is something few other units in the game can manage.

My favourite tank commander loadout is battle cannon, plasma sponsons, heavy bolter heavy stubber currently. (With this you need to take 3-4 though or you expose yourself to losing your investment turn 1)

I'd say basilisks are better than manticores. Point for point their firepower is almost exactly the same, but the basis are tougher (more wounds per point) and can gain buffs from the emperors wrath formation from vigilus (the strat to fire twice is particularly useful)

 DoomMouse wrote:
Punishers work fine, though I prefer vostroyan for a punisher as often 24 inch range exposes you to reprisals. You need some decent anti infantry and a punisher or two can do that. Against plaguebearers, the vengeance for cadia strat plus vostroyan strat on average kills about 20 models which is something few other units in the game can manage.

My favourite tank commander loadout is battle cannon, plasma sponsons, heavy bolter heavy stubber currently. (With this you need to take 3-4 though or you expose yourself to losing your investment turn 1)

I'd say basilisks are better than manticores. Point for point their firepower is almost exactly the same, but the basis are tougher (more wounds per point) and can gain buffs from the emperors wrath formation from vigilus (the strat to fire twice is particularly useful)

I feel like if you want to use manticores Catachan is the way to do it. It just sucks they get almost no buffs that the wyverns and basilisks get. The amount of times I've fired a manticore and rolled 3 shots, or bounced off an armor save is too many to count, they just feel very swingy. They want to shoot at T5 stuff like bikes, thundercav, death guard, etc. but that D3 damage comes back to haunt you quite a bit.

On the other hand I've been running a pair of basilisks lately with the vigilus formation and they're great. Not only the fire twice strat, but the suppression volley is potentially game winning at times. I run a brigade+batallion in my current list and part of that is to basically pay 2 CP to have a 3rd basilisk for "free" every turn, makes it easily superior to the manticore at that point. You're almost always putting out at least 4 shots and you can even use aerial spotters to have a double shot basilisk rerolling all misses.

On the tanks I'm still torn, I love Executioners, you just can't go wrong with them, but I appear to have an incredibly lucky one that screws with my judgement since it rolls an insane amount of shots and just melts things. And since I run Valhallans, I really don't care if I take a few wounds so I run mine overcharging almost every shot. Other tanks that deserve credit are Punishers and the default tank, especially a commander with the relic cannon. That one is basically auto include. I'm also considering a standard Demolisher to try with the vigilus tank company. Idea being to use the 10" grinding advance strat and run it up the field with 3 Hellhounds as a tip to the spear. I don't expect it to a ton of damage in and of itself but you can't just leave 3 Hellhounds and a Demolisher alive in your lines, so hopefully it'll take heat off my other tanks.

Again, the vigilus formation is great. The relic cannon is a workhorse, the wlt is useful if played right, and the strats are situational but can be very useful.

Kinda cool there is a datasheet for last chancers in apocolypse. Wonder if it’s a prelude to an official 40k one or new models.

Are Shadowswords or the Quake cannon variants competetive in any way? Their cost is not too bad.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Are Shadowswords or the Quake cannon variants competetive in any way? Their cost is not too bad.

Shadowswords used to dominate the meta. Nowadays they're hurt a bit by lack of invuln saves and no way to do reserve shenanigans to prevent them being shot first turn. They're still stupidly powerful with the amount of weapons they get and knights being limited to a 4+ invuln, but they have a bit of a glass jaw. Hardly useless, just keep in mind that high AP weapons will seriously ruin their day

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...no way to do reserve shenanigans to prevent them being shot first turn.

Did I miss a change that means you can't use Tallarn Ambush on them? I know this delays their use until turn 2, which is a pretty nasty drawback, but it would still keep them safe turn 1.

You can certainly still bring one in turn 2 with Tallarn. Hell, a supreme command of Tallarn Tank Commanders, with a Shadowsword in reserve, could be a pretty sweet army actually.

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...no way to do reserve shenanigans to prevent them being shot first turn.

Did I miss a change that means you can't use Tallarn Ambush on them? I know this delays their use until turn 2, which is a pretty nasty drawback, but it would still keep them safe turn 1.

Yeah you still can, I should've clarified there's no way to reserve them and bring them on on your turn 1 if you go second. If that makes any sense. That used to be a good way to run them to make sure they weren't alpha striked off the table, since there's no way to hide the thing.

Aren't the Baneblade tanks wider than 7"?

 Peregrine wrote:
Aren't the Baneblade tanks wider than 7"?

Sort of but not really. Sponson to sponson is just under 7", although the angle that the bolters sit at makes them over 7". However, sponsons are not counted as part of the hull when checking if a model is "wholly within". You can't have any part of the model over the table edge, but you can have parts that don't count as hull over 7" on to the table. Which means that a sponsoned baneblade can ambush.

Since when do sponsons not count? This edition uses every part of a model to determine line of sight. That's kind of a a hard argument to win suggesting it has sponsons that conveniently don't count for deployment but somehow do when firing.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Since when do sponsons not count? This edition uses every part of a model to determine line of sight.

Rule Book FAQ:

Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within. If a rule says it affects models that are ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the model’s base (or hull) is within.

You use the whole model for LoS, but not for measurement. For the 'wholly within" you only count the hull.

 Horst wrote:
You can certainly still bring one in turn 2 with Tallarn. Hell, a supreme command of Tallarn Tank Commanders, with a Shadowsword in reserve, could be a pretty sweet army actually.

FAQ'd YOu can only bring 1 vehicle now.

I meant that you start the Tank Commanders on the board, and bring the vehicle in from outflank. The Tank Commanders can move shoot move, so they should be able to survive turn 1 from behind cover (assuming your board isn't planet bowling ball). I worded that poorly though.

This sounds very interesting chaps. I would run the shadowsword as Catachan for the Reroll on the number of shots. Then sergeant Harker will provide rerolls of 1.

Time to start working on a nice competitive 2k list with a lot of tanks, Hellhounds, a shadowsword and a squadron of death riders.

In my experience its best to either outflank with tallarn or take voystroyan for the BS bonus.

I'm finally taking the plunge and getting into IG with the Apocalypse box, but I've got questions:

1: How awful are Sentinels? I'm assuming very, since they more or less never show up in lists. If you wanted to run them, what would be the least awful way?

2: Where are the rules for the Stormblade these days, and what is it like?

Sentinels are not bad. There are just better choices in the codex. They're frequently taken if you want to do a full Guard Brigade, just take 3 Sentinels with autocannons (or plasma cannons if you're cadian).

Stormblades are pretty bad. The Plasma Blastgun on it is almost as good as Cawl's Wrath on the Castellan, but with BS4 and no invulnerable, it's not really worth 408 points. You're way better off with a pair of Executioners if you want plasma fire support.. they'd cost the same, and put out way more damage.

Sentinels are bad. They're weaker than their points in LRBTs and the -1 to hit when moving is crippling. The best use is cheaply filling fast attack slots to maximize CP. Keep them cheap with multilasers, move them up to screen your more important stuff, and expect them to die without doing much else.

The Stormblade is trash. It is balanced around the index versions of the Baneblade variants, before they all got +D6 shots, and never received a proper update. Proxy it as a Shadowsword if you want to put the model on the table.

Ive started running 2 sentinals, 1 armored and 1 scout. Depending on what im playing, I'll use the scout to move forward and either claim an objective early or be a speed bump.

The armored hangs back, usually its ignored over my other armor, then once ive wiped my opponent's anti armor, it will be a late game objective grabber that's harder to push off than guardsmen.

I really like running the pair, its fluffy, fits my list and play style whether it's IK with AM support or all AM

What do you guys think best for a fast attack choice, two lascannon Sentinels or a Tauros Venator with twin lascannons? I'm running a mech list with lots of Chimeras, 3 russes, and a Basilisk, and my AT kinda sucks. I'm thinking of replacing my Hellhound with one of the above options.

 Peregrine wrote:
Sentinels are bad. They're weaker than their points in LRBTs and the -1 to hit when moving is crippling. The best use is cheaply filling fast attack slots to maximize CP. Keep them cheap with multilasers, move them up to screen your more important stuff, and expect them to die without doing much else.

The Stormblade is trash. It is balanced around the index versions of the Baneblade variants, before they all got +D6 shots, and never received a proper update. Proxy it as a Shadowsword if you want to put the model on the table.

I actually stop moving mine up turn 1 for two reasons:

1 with changes to Deep Strike T1 it doesnt matter about pushing out the DS bubble as much until T2.
2 more importantly and annoyingly, pushing them out gives the enemy an easy unit to charge into and then slingshot into the rest of your army without getting shot. Any CC army or CC units like smash captains, Genestealers, bezerkers, etc...

The stormblade and any other Baneblade variant CAN be good. Best to take Voystroyan for a3+ BS. THen take two cheap astropaths to cast -1 to hit and +1 Armor save on it. Also consider a techpriest to heal wounds.
The other good doctrine I see is Valhallan since it doubles the wounds for damage bracket, so its kind of like shooting at top shelf with a knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 necrontyrOG wrote:
What do you guys think best for a fast attack choice, two lascannon Sentinels or a Tauros Venator with twin lascannons? I'm running a mech list with lots of Chimeras, 3 russes, and a Basilisk, and my AT kinda sucks. I'm thinking of replacing my Hellhound with one of the above options.

Just take Cadian Sentinels with plasma, park them in the back and don't move them. Put them near a warlord with old grudges and/or use overlapping fields of fire for extra boons.

 Dynas wrote:
I actually stop moving mine up turn 1 for two reasons:

1 with changes to Deep Strike T1 it doesnt matter about pushing out the DS bubble as much until T2.
2 more importantly and annoyingly, pushing them out gives the enemy an easy unit to charge into and then slingshot into the rest of your army without getting shot. Any CC army or CC units like smash captains, Genestealers, bezerkers, etc...

I should clarify that "moving up" doesn't necessarily mean straight forward and leaving gaps in your army. The scout move + normal move can also move across your deployment zone to thicken a screen if your opponent counters your deployment and looks to be aiming to arrive from a different angle. Or maybe you're "screening" by rushing forward to lock a shooting threat in combat. And obviously sometimes you'll just stay where you are, because you deployed in the right spot. But options are good to have.

The stormblade and any other Baneblade variant CAN be good.

Baneblade variants can be good. Stormblades can not. Compare stat lines:

Baneblade: 3D6 shots at STR 9 AP -3 D3

Stormblade on overload, taking mortal wounds for every 1 rolled: 2D6 shots at STR 9 AP -3 D3

Banesword: 2D6 shots at STR 14 AP -4 D6 with 1s and 2s becoming 3 damage

The Stormblade is the clear loser here because it didn't get the +D6 shots buff that every other Baneblade variant got from index to codex. There's just no situation where you even consider taking one.

Just take Cadian Sentinels with plasma, park them in the back and don't move them. Put them near a warlord with old grudges and/or use overlapping fields of fire for extra boons.

The problem is that now you've paid the cost of a plasma LRBT for a much weaker unit. The Tauros is the much better option because it at least offers mobility to balance out any inefficiency as a pure shooting unit and do something that the LRBT can't do. Sentinels have no place in a gunline element.