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Because 6 Shots is better than 2D3 when shooting at single wound T3 or T4.

From what I have tested, I feel that plasma cannons are really worth their price if you can safely overcharge.
Meaning you should preferably take them on tank commanders, and not aiming at minus to hit targets.
On basic LRBT, heavy bolters are fine, especially for good rate of fire needs.
In addition, resolving target priority and dice rolling is simple and fast with 9 HB shots, which is convenient in tournaments.

I'm trying to decide whether Bullgryns end up being worth it or not for counter-charging in most games. The main thing for me is that for the price of a full squad of Bullgryns, I can take a separate detachment of catachan, 4 squads, company commander, Stracken, and a priest, and have around 100 points or so left over. That's +5 cp, more bodies, and actual shooting for cheaper. All those catachan put out less melee damage overall it seems, but not by much, and gain damage when you factor in the shooting. The biggest problem I see is that you can't squeeze that many bodies into melee unless it's a huge squad (boyz, stealers, gaunts). I'm mainly looking at them for counter-charging things that touch my tanks/artillery. Or would using the catachan as a screen/counter-charge be better?

The problem with catachans instead of bullgryns is that they are so much more fragile... a bullgryn squad is near impossible to shift with shooting, while guardsmen can be dropped with ease. There are also things they can't stand up to. A Lord Discordant will just eat them, but Bullgryn can stand and fight that.

 Horst wrote:
The problem with catachans instead of bullgryns is that they are so much more fragile... a bullgryn squad is near impossible to shift with shooting, while guardsmen can be dropped with ease. There are also things they can't stand up to. A Lord Discordant will just eat them, but Bullgryn can stand and fight that.

This is the big difference. Yeah a Catachan mob can handle chaff hordes meant to tie down tanks with little problem. But real melee threats will just scythe right through hem.

Stole this from someone earlier in this thread, but ive been running ogryn bodyguards to amazing successful. A squad of guardsmen and a ogryn Bodyguard is exceptionally hard to push off an objective with shooting

I tried the Ogryn Bodyguard, and they were pretty cool, except in ITC they give up Headhunter and killpoints way too easily, since if you actively commit them to the fight they're gonna die. In other game modes they work better.

 UMGuy wrote:
Stole this from someone earlier in this thread, but ive been running ogryn bodyguards to amazing successful. A squad of guardsmen and a ogryn Bodyguard is exceptionally hard to push off an objective with shooting

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean 'a squad of guardsman and a ogryn bodyguard'? The bodyguard can only intercept wounds for infantry characters. Are you saying that ten bodies, with a sturdy character hiding behind them, is hard to completely remove in the shooting phase? I've been really trying to find uses for the bodyguard. I adore the idea.

RaptorHunter wrote:

 UMGuy wrote:
Stole this from someone earlier in this thread, but ive been running ogryn bodyguards to amazing successful. A squad of guardsmen and a ogryn Bodyguard is exceptionally hard to push off an objective with shooting

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean 'a squad of guardsman and a ogryn bodyguard'? The bodyguard can only intercept wounds for infantry characters. Are you saying that ten bodies, with a sturdy character hiding behind them, is hard to completely remove in the shooting phase? I've been really trying to find uses for the bodyguard. I adore the idea.

Yeah I'd imagine he's just using the guardsmen to prevent something from targeting the bodyguard. I don't know any sane person that would have the bodyguard take wounds for an infantry squad even if you could do that.

My one problem I have with ogryn bodyguards is that I know the invuln shield is better, but I just continue to run slabshields because they look cool and they're easier to hide characters behind. Placed correctly the bullgryn can block LOs to a commander or commissar pretty well if the opponent just has one or two sniper units. Doesnt seem like a big deal but sometimes you just have to stand in the open a turn and don't have tanks to hide behind.

Exactly, not utilizing the bodyguard rule, but more the character rule. If i feel like i need more reinforcements, I'll put 2 squads there. But that takes a good amount of shooting to push them off an objective.

Agreed, i think that's where they shine. They are a very flexible unit in an army of strict roles. Need to protect your cc, they got you. Need to hold an objective, ogryns got this. Need s counter charge unit, sign them up.

In the current meta (mine is knights or flyers) where do you stand on Scions and is there a way to use them?

Blinkingspirit wrote:
In the current meta (mine is knights or flyers) where do you stand on Scions and is there a way to use them?

Tempestus Drop Force and plasma is king. Volleygun command squads tucked in a nearby Valk to take out infantry and light vehicle with orders are good. Taurox Primes are gunboats.

Catachan V bullgyrn durability widely varies.

54 S4 ap0 hits will kill 1 Bullgryn or 24 guardsmen

6 thunder hammers hits will kill 5 guardsmen or 2&2/3 Bullgryn

Both are really strong against some attacks and weak against others. The primary weakness of masses Catachan is stratagems. Butting in with 30 boys for 2 CP will kill a lot of guardsmen before they can swing as opposed to a single Bullgryn unit who swings once and is done.

Okay so I have a small tournament coming up in a few months meaning I have some time to work on my list. It's a 1500 point tournament and the list that I have now is:

Battalion (Militarum Tempestus)
-2 Primes, 3 min squads with two plasma + pistol, command squad with 4 volley guns
Battalion (Cadian)
-2 CC, 3 IS w/ plasmagun
Supreme command (Cadian)
-3 TC (Pask in Executioner)

Now I have about 300+ points to play around with. I could fit 2 standard russes (which I already own) and call it a day. But I'm kinda toying with the idea of adding 3 Basilisks (which I don't own). Did the math and the basilisks do slighly more damage than the russes with the huge boon of not needing LOS. But I don't really "love" the Basilisk model so I'm a bit reluctant on pulling the trigger.

What do you recommend? I'm open to other suggestions as well, however bullgryn shenanigans is probably something I'm not going to dive into due to not liking the models at all combined with their monetary cost (might as well buy the Basilisks for the same cost as 9 Bullgryn).

E: LoWs are banned if that makes a difference...

LoWs. Eing banned makes a huge differenxe

I would make the supreme command another battalion by adding 3 IS. Then take a wyvern and a basilisk and utilize the emperors artillery company.

Hello.
With lots of plasma, plasma executioner, and battle cannons, you have your anti-tank and anti-elite needs well covered.
You should have some indirect firepower, and also take a look at anti-horde units.
So one or two mortar HWS, a wyvern or two would be good complements to your list.

 Weazel wrote:
Okay so I have a small tournament coming up in a few months meaning I have some time to work on my list. It's a 1500 point tournament and the list that I have now is:

Battalion (Militarum Tempestus)
-2 Primes, 3 min squads with two plasma + pistol, command squad with 4 volley guns
Battalion (Cadian)
-2 CC, 3 IS w/ plasmagun
Supreme command (Cadian)
-3 TC (Pask in Executioner)

Now I have about 300+ points to play around with. I could fit 2 standard russes (which I already own) and call it a day. But I'm kinda toying with the idea of adding 3 Basilisks (which I don't own). Did the math and the basilisks do slighly more damage than the russes with the huge boon of not needing LOS. But I don't really "love" the Basilisk model so I'm a bit reluctant on pulling the trigger.

What do you recommend? I'm open to other suggestions as well, however bullgryn shenanigans is probably something I'm not going to dive into due to not liking the models at all combined with their monetary cost (might as well buy the Basilisks for the same cost as 9 Bullgryn).

E: LoWs are banned if that makes a difference...

My personal advice. Convert the Standard Leman Russes you have to Leman Russ Conquerors and put them in the Cadian Battaltion switching it to Vostroyan. They are a bare few points more and out damage the Basilisks. With no lords of war Your tanks are going to be the toughest models on the field and people won't have enough to deal with all the T8.

Khadorstompy wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Okay so I have a small tournament coming up in a few months meaning I have some time to work on my list. It's a 1500 point tournament and the list that I have now is:

Battalion (Militarum Tempestus)
-2 Primes, 3 min squads with two plasma + pistol, command squad with 4 volley guns
Battalion (Cadian)
-2 CC, 3 IS w/ plasmagun
Supreme command (Cadian)
-3 TC (Pask in Executioner)

Now I have about 300+ points to play around with. I could fit 2 standard russes (which I already own) and call it a day. But I'm kinda toying with the idea of adding 3 Basilisks (which I don't own). Did the math and the basilisks do slighly more damage than the russes with the huge boon of not needing LOS. But I don't really "love" the Basilisk model so I'm a bit reluctant on pulling the trigger.

What do you recommend? I'm open to other suggestions as well, however bullgryn shenanigans is probably something I'm not going to dive into due to not liking the models at all combined with their monetary cost (might as well buy the Basilisks for the same cost as 9 Bullgryn).

E: LoWs are banned if that makes a difference...

My personal advice. Convert the Standard Leman Russes you have to Leman Russ Conquerors and put them in the Cadian Battaltion switching it to Vostroyan. They are a bare few points more and out damage the Basilisks. With no lords of war Your tanks are going to be the toughest models on the field and people won't have enough to deal with all the T8.

If you're gonna take Conquerors, you want them as Catachan, not Vostroyan. A Catachan Conqueror can re-roll how many shots it gets, which is a huge deal.

I can see it both ways for the conqueror

Being within storm bolter range gives it a +50% to its damage (more if any -ve to hit modifiers), so is a huge deal. The extra range makes that huge buff more likely to happen, and might let you expose yourself less to retaliation by being further back. Vostroyans also have a great strat.

Having the catachan re-rolls gives +21% to the turret damage output all the time (assuming you re-roll 1s, 2s and 3s)

I've run both in the past

I have a Punisher turret to help with antihorde should I take the Russes. I can also put it on a TC to capitalize on their better BS.

Conquerors sounds like a solid plan, but alas FW is also on the ban list at this tourney (don't ask).

Solid advice overall, thank you. Now I just need to pick out the best pieces. Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company sounds like a great plan especially with Wyverns since they lack in the AP department.. however three battalions sounds a bit overkill, any input how to use 18 cp?

 Weazel wrote:
I have a Punisher turret to help with antihorde should I take the Russes. I can also put it on a TC to capitalize on their better BS.

Conquerors sounds like a solid plan, but alas FW is also on the ban list at this tourney (don't ask).

Solid advice overall, thank you. Now I just need to pick out the best pieces. Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company sounds like a great plan especially with Wyverns since they lack in the AP department.. however three battalions sounds a bit overkill, any input how to use 18 cp?

You can actually piss through CP pretty easily with Guard. If the enemy has a big horde that needs to die, fire a squad of regular mortars at it, probably kill one of them. Then you use Overlapping Fields of Fire and Aerial Spotters (2 CP each) to give your Wyvern BS3+ and re-roll all misses. Then, if the enemy has any survivors, 2 CP more to fire it again with the Vigilus stratagem. So you can blow 6 CP on just that combo in a single shooting phase. Add in re-rolls, maybe an auto-pass morale check or two on important squads holding objectives, and you can easily spend 18 CP in a game with Guard.

edit - That assumes you have a Wyvern and are running Cadian. If you're doing a Catachan army or something without a Wyvern and aren't using the vigilus stuff, then you have a lot fewer ways to blow through all that CP.

^Okay cheers. Have not bought any of the Vigilus stuff so it's all new to me. Do I need like a book (of course I do?) or is there a nifty summary somewhere to be downloaded?

There's no real summary available, though https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/22-new-40k-vigilus-special-detachments-latest.html has some blurry pictures.

The book you'd want is Vigilus Defiant, the other one is Vgilus Ablaze which is mostly focused on Chaos.

With all armies now having a codex, GW seems to be cycling back around. DO you think Guard is up for an update? It possible we see an update by October?

Codex Release Date
Space Marines July 2017
Grey Knights I August 2017
Adeptus Mechanicus September 2017
Death Guard September 2017
Astra Militarum October 2017
Craftworlds October 2017
Tyranids I November 2017

 Dynas wrote:
With all armies now having a codex, GW seems to be cycling back around. DO you think Guard is up for an update? It possible we see an update by October?

Codex Release Date
Space Marines July 2017
Grey Knights I August 2017
Adeptus Mechanicus September 2017
Death Guard September 2017
Astra Militarum October 2017
Craftworlds October 2017
Tyranids I November 2017

My money would be grey knights and Admech, since chaos already got an update. Those two need the most tweaks along the lines the space marines have, aka broken rules that don't do anything. Ignoring points costs, they've got the jankiest codexes. Also I expect we'll see reprints of the non codex chapters soon too, since they all need similar tweaks.

Guard doesn't need one at all. We were the first codex to have halfway sane regiment/chapter abilities, our strats are good, our orders work, our relics are useable, etc. Unless GW wants to primaris guard (emperor I hope not) we are very unlikely to get anything more than a basic reprint cleaning up erratad units.

I wouldn't mind some new regiment models.

We can always use some new tanks or artillery. Personally I would love to see some fixed emplacement guns. Something on a big oval base thats basically like a German 88, maybe a PaK 40 too.

I know we have FW earthshakers, but I want plastic GW kits.

We are unlikely to have a new IG codex in the foreseeable future. GW is currently expanding the Primaris range by adding some newly created kits, and fixing the chapter traits.
There you have the need for an updated codex.
Plus they have seen an opportunity to charge SM players for a base codex + supplement instead of one big codex. ££ + ££
The current trend is all marines, all the way (renegade or loyalist), with the exception of Adepta Sororitas somewhere during the end of the year.

Looks like the 2nd run of 8th ed codex will be for all armies. For the most part the 8.5 codex is buffed chapter tactics, CA point changes, a stratagem or 2, and something new.

Stronger chapter/regimental tactics will further discourage soup.

What GW should do for something new is 3 boxes infantry squad, command squad, HWS for a 3rd plastic regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On one hand guard players are high rollers ready to sink a lot of cash into the hobby so new plastic regiments would be a great move for GWs bottom line.

On the other hand hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 Dynas wrote:
With all armies now having a codex, GW seems to be cycling back around. DO you think Guard is up for an update? It possible we see an update by October?

Codex Release Date
Space Marines July 2017
Grey Knights I August 2017
Adeptus Mechanicus September 2017
Death Guard September 2017
Astra Militarum October 2017
Craftworlds October 2017
Tyranids I November 2017

Considering we were told Adeptus soritas are coming this year.
I wouldn’t count on the prior release schedule.
Space marines is now August release
With a slow trickle of supplemental codexs for it after (like iron hands)
Soritas I expect in October
Maybe as stated greyknights or admech as well
I expect another out of left field codex supplement to drop soon such as agents of imperium which have a ton of models already from all these box games but I suspect this will be next year anyway.
I don’t expect guard til early next year but it does lend itself well to the supplement style codex.

I would expect admech coming soon for the simple reason they just released some new models for them so they'll want the rules out there for them I would think (besides having to get them in the box).