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 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So does this magical stratagem called "Consolidate Squads".

I don't see 10 being 'horde' sized. 15 or higher would be right for a start.

Consolidate squads is extremely limited though. You can't use it to theme an army, pretty much just save the last few men from a squad.

And Consolidated Squads were the actual issues with 'hordes', not 'masses of 10 mans'. Conscript Squads were the problems, Grot Blobs, etc.

I personally hope they find ways of making morale being more of a factor if that allows guard to actually operate larger squads again. I've never stopped being annoyed that footguard has effectively become an MSU army and 4 company commanders are on the battlefield commanding 50-100 dudes.

We'll see, with what they said about morale being more important, the IG stand to be one of the most negatively impacted armies out there.

But with there low cp demand they are one of the best soupers

Long live the 32

Finally my lascannon armed Valkyries won't be hitting on 5s when they move!

Hellhounds can fire more than once a game now, hopefully.

Tallarn regimental doctrine will be pretty much hot garbage until it gets revamped if all vehicle keyword units ignore penalties to hit with heavy weapons ...

Punisher tanks will be even better, right? Finally, my armored company list will not get rolled the instant it gets touched in melee.

Could be interesting, if they shifted the Tallarn superheavy bonus to all Tallarn vehicles. So everything heavy becomes assault. It would keep the general theme of a highly mobile army and would only require to change "superheavy" into "vehicle".

 Colonel Cross wrote:


Tallarn regimental doctrine will be pretty much hot garbage until it gets revamped if all vehicle keyword units ignore penalties to hit with heavy weapons ...

I mean they may get to ignore the -1 to hit with Heavy Weapons against units in combat with them at least, so that's not quite as bad as you might think, but yeah, its still disappointing that its no where near as good as it used to be.
Maybe it'll just get changed to be the same as what the Infantry get; Advance and still fire - one can dream.

So we've already gotten some hint that stuff is going to get 50% or so more expensive points-wise. With Tanks now not getting negative modifiers for moving and shooting heavy weapons and being able to shoot them in combat, how expensive is a Russ going to be now? Like 500 points?

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
So we've already gotten some hint that stuff is going to get 50% or so more expensive points-wise. With Tanks now not getting negative modifiers for moving and shooting heavy weapons and being able to shoot them in combat, how expensive is a Russ going to be now? Like 500 points?

Depends. If you're a Marine Tank, probably something like a 20% increase. For the NPC factions, looks like 50% increases.

It's a pretty cool way to handle vehicles in melee. Also, did you read the rule entry? If the tank can clear itself out of melee with the sponsons, the turret can engage other targets normally

Sponsons now serve the Tactical purpose they would in real life, hose off close quarters infantry so the turret can engage targets at will. Heavy flamer sponsons could have a legitimate use for tank regiment players now. 3 flamers with reroll shot amount can clear most weaker infantry easily to let the turret fire at will.

I really like the way they did this rule. Charging tanks to tie them up still has a purpose but the tanks are no longer defenseless. Well done, hopefully there's not something were missing to this. Also, it lets sentinels be less useless when moving, an added bonus!

The blast weapon changes are potentially a gamechanger as well. Interested to see whether the formerly small template blast weapons will get that keyword again as well. Like plasma cannons and the melta cannon on the Devil Dog.

The blast rules might also make the (frag) missile launcher a pretty good option against larger blobs.

Compared to the heavy bolter it is now better against 11+ T3 6+ targets like conscripts or cultists
ML: 6 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 5/6 = 5/3
HB: 3 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 6/6 = 1

Or against boyz
ML: 6 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/4
HB: 3 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 6/6 = 1

And meanwhile the ML would still have its krak profile. But with all the "anti-horde-changes" we might not really see bigger units any more

I was thinking that too. Even moreso with the new PA custom regiment rules (for as long as they still exist). I've been planning to run my guys with the 18" rapid fire and -1 AP on everything within 9" of an officer. That extra bit of AP really helps both missile types.

Hello.
The seigneurial approval for extra AP around officers only works in melee, right ?
So no frag at AP -1.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello.
The seigneurial approval for extra AP around officers only works in melee, right ?
So no frag at AP -1.

Yep, only works in melee. Officers giving infantry shooting -1 AP in 9" would be busted as all get out. FRFSRF guardsmen would be some of the deadliest shooting around point for point at that point

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello.
The seigneurial approval for extra AP around officers only works in melee, right ?
So no frag at AP -1.

Yep, only works in melee. Officers giving infantry shooting -1 AP in 9" would be busted as all get out. FRFSRF guardsmen would be some of the deadliest shooting around point for point at that point

Though the Scions doctrine that gives -1 AP (Lambdan Lions) also applies to grenades, and the Grenadiers Stratagem will work on them, so you can get 10x -1 AP frag grenades. And with a precision drop, you can drop them from a Valk, at 5.1", then Grenadiers 10 guys all over an enemy infantry unit (of 11+). Maybe not the best use, but would be amusing.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello.
The seigneurial approval for extra AP around officers only works in melee, right ?
So no frag at AP -1.

Yep, only works in melee. Officers giving infantry shooting -1 AP in 9" would be busted as all get out. FRFSRF guardsmen would be some of the deadliest shooting around point for point at that point

Though the Scions doctrine that gives -1 AP (Lambdan Lions) also applies to grenades, and the Grenadiers Stratagem will work on them, so you can get 10x -1 AP frag grenades. And with a precision drop, you can drop them from a Valk, at 5.1", then Grenadiers 10 guys all over an enemy infantry unit (of 11+). Maybe not the best use, but would be amusing.

Given those grenades hit on 3's it'd be a heck of a drop on an Ork Boyz mob or something. That'd be an insane return on investment. A niche trick, but a good one to remember when you face a horde army.

So maybe in 10th edition.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:


Though the Scions doctrine that gives -1 AP (Lambdan Lions) also applies to grenades, and the Grenadiers Stratagem will work on them, so you can get 10x -1 AP frag grenades. And with a precision drop, you can drop them from a Valk, at 5.1", then Grenadiers 10 guys all over an enemy infantry unit (of 11+). Maybe not the best use, but would be amusing.

Given those grenades hit on 3's it'd be a heck of a drop on an Ork Boyz mob or something. That'd be an insane return on investment. A niche trick, but a good one to remember when you face a horde army.

Some quick back of an envelope maths; I get ~15 dead Ork Boyz (on average) for an attack like that, from 10 Scions with a Re-Roll 1's to hit order. (assuming of course you can get all 10 in range), earning back their points and 50% more for 2CP.
Against a conscript/GEQ squad, or similar its even more devastating, as they are only T3 (theoretically you could kill ~23!) obviously assuming 11+ in the squad and you can get all 10 Scions in range.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello.
The seigneurial approval for extra AP around officers only works in melee, right ?
So no frag at AP -1.

Yep, only works in melee. Officers giving infantry shooting -1 AP in 9" would be busted as all get out. FRFSRF guardsmen would be some of the deadliest shooting around point for point at that point

Good call! Misread that one. Good thing I never actually got a chance to play it against some unsuspecting victim.

Do you stop the rampaging Trygon from smashing a tank or that horde of 30 Hormagaunts from shredding an infantry platoon? No easy choice.

Caught this in the Overwatch blurb today...looks like we might have Infantry Platoons coming back.

This would please me.

It wouldn't please me at all, unless there's some kind of activation benefit. Because it's a nonsensical fluffy bit at this point, which doesn't even hold up because characters aren't part of units anymore.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It wouldn't please me at all, unless there's some kind of activation benefit. Because it's a nonsensical fluffy bit at this point, which doesn't even hold up because characters aren't part of units anymore.

If they return characters like Company/Platoon commanders to their respective command squads it would be fix many issues IMO.

The problem with not having platoons is the FOC if you do not want more then 1 detacment for CP reason, you'll be capped at the number of squads you can bring.

Something in the wording of look out sir has been scratching at the back of my mind all day:

"...cannot target a unit that contains any character models..."

Part of me thinks that we could see the return of the 5 man command squad, where the officer makes the whole unit untargetable. Combine that with 20-50 man squads and you have a great platoon, especially as platoon commanders with a single order work well with large blobs.

Obviously just a bit of guesswork, but it would be interesting.

Blasts are going to be the great double edged sword for IG and a source of endless debate.

The bad news

Engagement range is the new term for CC. Vehicles can shoot at units they are in CC with at -1, but blast weapons cannot fire when a vehicle is in CC. Blast weapons can theoretically fire at a different target if the vehicles other weapons kill everything it's in CC with.

For the most part charging a vehicle with a blast weapon will almost always shut down the big gun. Publishers can grinding advance units they are in CC with. Demolishers can not shoot their main gun.


The good news

# of shot dice is minimum 3 for squad size 6-10, auto 6s on 11+. High risk high reward

Don't use the grenade strat with your scions -- a ten man barebones scion squad precision dropping with FRFSRF will fire 37 lasgun shots, which are all s3 and can be boosted to s4 (well, 36 of them) while the grenades are a lacklust average of 35 shots of s3 and can't be boosted. If you are lambda lions, then s4/-3/1 x 36 is always better than s3/-1/1 x 35, and that's ignoring the hslp shot from the sarge (he can throw a grenade if you are really fixated on it.)

Is it only blast weapons that can't be shot when in CC? So the Punisher and Exterminator will still be able to fire?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Is it only blast weapons that can't be shot when in CC? So the Punisher and Exterminator will still be able to fire?

Seems so.

Melee Punisher goes brrrrrrrrrrrt

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Don't use the grenade strat with your scions -- a ten man barebones scion squad precision dropping with FRFSRF will fire 37 lasgun shots, which are all s3 and can be boosted to s4 (well, 36 of them) while the grenades are a lacklust average of 35 shots of s3 and can't be boosted. If you are lambda lions, then s4/-3/1 x 36 is always better than s3/-1/1 x 35, and that's ignoring the hslp shot from the sarge (he can throw a grenade if you are really fixated on it.)

Well yeah, in a normal situation you would average 35 shots or so. That's not a huge deal but still not bad.

We're pointing out that if you threw them at a unit of 11+ models in 9th, they would roll a max guaranteed 60 shots. I do guess it would be more cost effective on veterans than stormtroopers, but either way 60 BS3+ shots will hurt something. Especially since vets can do the Experienced eye strat so it would be 60 Ap1 S3 shots. Throw an order onto them to reroll hits/wounds and that's a lotta damage potential out of a simple 10 man squad of guardsmen.