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 schadenfreude wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Any vehicle weapon without blast went up in points. That's why heavy bolter and punishes became so expensive.

Thunderer siege tanks and cheaper than Russ tanks for now. They will likely raise the price after people finish their conversions.

Thunderers can't double shoot their cannon though.

They lack the Leman Russ keyword but still have grinding advance. They can not take any additional weapons.

They don't have Grinding Advance.

1) Their "Grinding Advance" rule was different to that of Leman Russes and gave a different effect.
2) It was errata'd to be called "Lumbering Advance" instead, which as shown by the Monolith and Land Raider errata, will just be yeeted since the Core Rules let you do the same effect.

 schadenfreude wrote:
They lack the Leman Russ keyword but still have grinding advance. They can not take any additional weapons.

Thunderers don't have grinding advance. The IA FAQ renamed it to lumbering advance to prevent confusion.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@tneva82: a that makes sense now, thanks. It's still... odd that the blast weapons of the LR did not went up too. But maybe the new CC rules really make the Exterminator worth 30 points. I can at least hope to be pleasantly surprised

Well I'm not sold it's right price but that's at least explanation why some twin weapons cost more than 2x individual weapons. There's certain logic on it though is the lack of melee shooting on blast weapons that much of harm that the benefit you get from having blast effect is so outweighed(though as hordes generally are going to die you rarely actually USE the blast rule for auto shot count)

From what I picked up, I gathered the Salamander Scout Tank, Tauros Assault Vehicle and Tauros Venator are all being removed? Makes me sad a bit as I really liked those and had some counts as of those.

On a more positive note for those still liking their horses (like me) if I heard correctly the deathriders with lances all went down 2 points (and are still there which might be more important).

It seems scions are over all the big winners of our points adjustments, before covid I saw a lot of tournament lists take them in large numbers, no small part due to psychic awakening giving them some really good buffs. Now that hordes are even more weakened I can see MSU plasma scions being very very competitive.

I would also say with the new blast rules Leman Russ' would have been competitive but then they went up 28 points for a bone stock one and plasma sponsons DOUBLED in cost. I mean you can still do it in a spearhead, which gives them objective secured. You can can field about 8-9 Leman Russ and 2 tank commands in a 2k list with a few points left over for upgrades. Remove a Russ and you can kit them all out with a hull heavy flamer and flamer sponsons which they can now fire in melee, no more getting tagged and taken out of commission. Even with the point hike this WOULD have been my go to plan if GW didn't create those abominations known as Eradicators, the fact they can literally make more than twice their points back or more a turn on this list just makes me want to weep. I literally cant think of more poorly designed and under-costed unit that completely counters so many other units, I know I'm going on a tangent but I feel their mere existence will completely skew the entire game's balance going into 9th.

I'm trying to cross the first hurdle of Guard list building: regiment choice. I used to choose Tallarn exclusively, due to hating move and shoot penalties. Now that that is no longer a thing, I have the whole range to choose from. Let's look at what I could take:

Cadian: not for me. I do not like incentives to stay still, as I find myself always using them. This leads me to playing gunline, which I hate. I want a mobile force (hence Tallarn), so no.

Catachan: interesting. I know that this has been super popular but now I am thinking it could be my thing. The reroll blasts is quite nice. Against 6+ units you are guaranteed a 3, so rerolling 2s and 3s no longer has a disadvantage. Plus str4 Guardsmen sound fun.

Tallarn: hmmmm. They did get some cool new tricks. Hellhounds and flame sentinels that can advance and shoot could be interesting, plus I still like advance and shoot infantry.

Valhallan: I like the vehicle durability but they just don't seem as good as other Regiments. I like the idea of using the relic bolt pistol to make an old-fashioned commissar, but that's not exactly something to base an army off of.

Vostroyan: I don't know why but I tend to brush these guys off. Maybe I should reconsider them, 1cp for +1 to hit is nice, and having longer range on things like Demolishers and Punishers could be interesting.

Armageddon, Mordian: Eh, I don't love mech and unfortunately Mordian seem a bit weak now.

Custom: I used to like the idea of custom, although my hatred of moving penalties won out. Now? I would want to use 2 detachments of them and can't stomach the CP hit.

Anyway, this is more of a way to organise my thoughts and maybe start some regiment discussion. With the #1 reason for my regiment choice being moot, the choice is now completely open for me. I guess I could experiment a bit now.

When I went over my collection to readjust costs, I had the impression that my tallarn vehicles now have quite some arguments going for heavy flamers.

1. Since they now cost the same as heavy bolters they are not the more expensive hull weapon anymore
2. advance + shoot for tallarn vehicles adds D6'' to their threat range
3. now that you can fire into melee getting close is not that bad anymore.

As Trickstick said: Tallarn Flamersentinels, Hellhounds, Bane Wolfs, Chimeras with flamers... all seem significantly more attractive than in 8th to me.

I'm wondering just how effective that d6" will be, against the massive benefits that you get from Catachan. Rerolling flamer shots would be really useful.

Btw, I think there has been a subtle change to the way Commissars work, and would like other opinions. In 8th, if you had a +1ld, for example from a Catachan officer, along with a Commissar, you couldn't +1 to the Commissars ld when used by a squad. However, reading the basic rules (free rules, pg 8, "modifying characteristics"):

If a rule instructs you to replace one characteristic with a specified value, change the relevant characteristic to the new value before applying any modifiers that apply from other rules (if any) to the new value.

The way I am reading this, you could replace your Guardsman's ld with an 8/9, then apply buffs like Catachan officers, or banners. This seems a nice little buff, as ld11 Guardsmen would be nice.

Edit: Ehhhhh, on second reading I think this is going to be one of those RAW-holes. The commissar's ability doesn't replace the ld, it says "use the Commissar’s Leadership instead of their own.". It may work, it may be slightly too different wording? I may as well YMDC it I guess.

I just realised that our +2 to hit sentinel strat doesn't really work that well any more...

It seems it only gets full benefit against things that are -1 to hit. But as far as I understand that's the effect of light cover terrain, so might be pretty common

 Trickstick wrote:
I just realised that our +2 to hit sentinel strat doesn't really work that well any more...

Yep, though useful against anything with a -1 to hit, as you still end up with +1, but yeah, it'll not be quite as good as it looks like it should be on paper. Nice perhaps for Tallarn Plasma Cannon Sentinels, (unless they change the plasma thing to natural 1's) to advance and shoot and not risk blowing up, even against a -1 to hit target. But very niche really.

I guess it makes them ok anti-air too.

astropaths still strip cover saves, right? has that changed in any way with terrain in ninth / does that interact with the new terrain?

same question for the catachan rule "burn them out" where a flamer can cost the unit being in cover.

I reckon its stripping the cover save specifically, and not affecting any minuses to be hit from any of the new terrains?

Dukeofstuff wrote:
astropaths still strip cover saves, right? has that changed in any way with terrain in ninth / does that interact with the new terrain?

same question for the catachan rule "burn them out" where a flamer can cost the unit being in cover.

I reckon its stripping the cover save specifically, and not affecting any minuses to be hit from any of the new terrains?

Both rules specifically state that the targeted unit gains "no bonus to their saving throws" for bring in cover, so any other cover effects would still apply (i.e. -1 to hit).

What do you think about AMs ability to earn the full 45 Primary Mission points against Marines?

I've been trying to come up with strategies to win these points, and while I feel confident against several factions, I think we are auto-lose against marines.

The combination of eradicators, eliminators, infiltratrators, tough dreadnoughts, smash captains, drop pod terminators, bikers and scouts, I think our ability to reach and hold midboard objectives until our next command phase is pretty much impossible.

We can't ignore midboard objectives and just sit back and shoot as they will outscore us = marine auto win.

I had this idea to take a super heavy detachment of Gorgons (with their 5+ invuln) filled with bullgryn and massed bodies, but even the Gorgon looks to have been legended, not to mention there's an easy 15 secondary points for titan Slayers. Stormlord are too expensive and flimsy, Crassus are too flimsy. Chimera don't have capacity and are paper thin and expensive.

I have hope in a Deft Manoeuvring trio of armoured sentinels and infantry being able to hold one objective in our own deployment zone, maybe for up to 3 turns. Possibly if we get first turn we can crash midboard objective with massed bodies in Chimera and hold them for a turn, possibly two. But 3 turns virtually impossible. With second turn, no way Scoring Hold More in any scenario, forget it. I don't think it is possible against marines, and therefore we go into that matchup with a starting 15 point handicap. Thus auto-lose.

Anyone have some hopeful ideas?

Bullgryns same like a unit made to just park their ass on an objective and refuse to be moved.

Moral is less dangerous so even those 10 guardsmen, while squishy for sure, take a bit of shooting to remove.

Plus your example seems to focus a lot on the Guard getting shot off objectives but not the Marines.
Those Basilisks and Manticores will require marines to commit to holding objectives aswell to survive a turn.

How is an all or almost all infantry horde looking in 9th?

Zond wrote:
How is an all or almost all infantry horde looking in 9th?

Personally I think it is looking nice, even though people are saying it isn't. Denying some of the easier secondaries is good, and we have nothing that is hit too much by blast rules.

 Ordana wrote:
Plus your example seems to focus a lot on the Guard getting shot off objectives but not the Marines.

Yah, because I don't think we can outshoot marines anymore.

The fact that we have to take (and hold until next command phase) midboard objectives to win on points means we can't just screen out our deployment zone anymore with troops, which also can no longer conga line. Opponent can simply pay 1 CP to outflank a trio of Eradicators and one shot a Tank Commander when they please. Any troops we do send up the board to take objectives will be wiped away effortlessly with bolter fire. We can't bad touch those tactical warsuits, nor even tri-point anything. Almost our entire army will not get a save of any sort against marines, and any vehicles we take to try to survive will just give up Secondaries too easily with their lack of invulnerable saves.

I'm afraid we will spend the whole game struggling to claim a second objectives when the marine opponent will easily be scoring Hold More every turn.

I mean, you can take a lot of bullogyrns in a 2,000pts list if you really want to try to muscle Astartes off an objective. They seem winners out of the point changes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Cruddace is a big part of it. He's always been an advocate of patterning the Guard after WWI stuff.

Ironic, considering the most WW1-like regiment can actually outfit its sergeants and officers with all sorts of rifles.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Cruddace is a big part of it. He's always been an advocate of patterning the Guard after WWI stuff.

Ironic, considering the most WW1-like regiment can actually outfit its sergeants and officers with all sorts of rifles.

I've actually been considering running DKoK as the basis for a Kasrkin Regiment lately. I know you and some others gave me guff for my Kasrkin unit concepts being 'ripoffs' of Grenadiers, but the unit is incredibly well designed for the roles it can take.

Asymmetric wrote:
I mean, you can take a lot of bullogyrns in a 2,000pts list if you really want to try to muscle Astartes off an objective. They seem winners out of the point changes.

I think Bullgryns are pretty much an auto-include to have a touch unit capable of taking and holding objectives.

 Ordana wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
I mean, you can take a lot of bullogyrns in a 2,000pts list if you really want to try to muscle Astartes off an objective. They seem winners out of the point changes.

I think Bullgryns are pretty much an auto-include to have a touch unit capable of taking and holding objectives.

But how many? Do you go for a full 9? Plus, what shields are best now? I know that the rules change on wound allocation removes a lot of the flexibility that they used to have, but a couple of invulnerables could still do a bit of tanking.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Cruddace is a big part of it. He's always been an advocate of patterning the Guard after WWI stuff.

Ironic, considering the most WW1-like regiment can actually outfit its sergeants and officers with all sorts of rifles.

I've actually been considering running DKoK as the basis for a Kasrkin Regiment lately. I know you and some others gave me guff for my Kasrkin unit concepts being 'ripoffs' of Grenadiers, but the unit is incredibly well designed for the roles it can take.

DKOK are a point more expensive but has a ton of different options and some strong stuff like engineers... it all depends on the fw book to update the rules from the original index which they claimed they did... should be a essentially a whole new codex.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
But how many? Do you go for a full 9?

I've been thinking if I'm going to take them then I'll take 2 full squads, so 18, to claim/hold 2 midboard objectives. Though I think any list that can put out a heap of mortal wounds will just toast them.

Also they're a bit slow for 5/8 GT missions to reach midboard objectives T1 unless charging or via a lucky advance roll, so they really need to be backed up by something fast and ideally obsec.

So what I'm thinking is cheap scout Sentinel squads as a forward screen/speedbump and shoot smoke launchers, followed by a Chimera each that together sits on the objective leaving no room for obsec to get on. Bullgryn follow behind and sure up that objective for a couple turns. Tallarn punisher tank aces dart in and out of obscuring cover using Get around behind them and remove enemy obsec threatening those midboard objectives.

If I can get hold more for 2-3 turns, that will be close to a win. Dont know if it actually has the ability to pull this off, and will be easily countered by many lists getting 1st turn

So the big news is, competitive play will outlaw the vigilis detachments and the whole "gaurd basilisk vs manticore" discussion just shifted against the basilisk and wyvern.

There is no removing cover for the wyvern's double shot. Cause it only shoots once, and full cover effects make this gun near unto useless against marines, sisters, or similar.

There is no doubletapping your manticore cause its not a thing now. So it clearly lacks oomph in competitive lists compared to the manticore (also favored in a short game.)

similarly, there is no scion stormtrooper drop detachment because GW doesn't like the gaurd to shoot as well as marines, which they prefer to sell (seriously, what is with these morons?) .. and because there is no emperor's fist, tallarn doctrines suddenly have value again (there is no "this tank full moves and fires everythign and hits you a lot" strat for LRBT now.)

So... annnoying.

I think this favors scions that have extra range, OR lambda lions (extra ap and a very good warlord/relic combo) OR iotan gorgonnes (shadows of the stormtrooper ability in their extra hits on a natural six).

I think it very much favors manticores over other gaurd artillery pieces, as well.


As GW continues to jerk us all aroudn with the ever evolving ruleset of what will or won't be nerfed or permitted in ninth (what donkey-caves) ... we wait to see if valkyries will still be permittedd to drop troops on the move or if they are nerfed to act like other transports, leaving only the drop pod with any first turn alpha strike abilities, or the hated ravengaurd aggressor squads.

Anyway. Someone had to say it. Also, I just noticed you can't stack -1 from an astropath on -1 from hovering anymore, so, well, screw me. Most armies are so shooty that only -1 doesn't make the birds very survivable.

I really am starting to not like ninth and I have not eVen Met It Yet.

Was thinking of brining my 1,500points 5/6th edition Guard army i havent touched in 8 years up to a 2,000points 9th edition army since a mass mechanised force looks better now. Basically just have to paint up the bullgyrns and add and a third hellhound so hopefully wouldnt take much addtional painting/modelling for myself.

1xBat
Jury Rigged Repairs
Gunnery Experts

HQ
Tank Commander 195
Battle Cannon / Lascannon Hull
Tank Ace - Master Mechanic
Relic - Kurov aquila

Tank Commander 195
Battle Cannon / Lascannon Hull

Tank Commander 195
Battle Cannon / Lascannon Hull

Elites
9 x Bullgyrns 342
Power Maul / brute shield

Troops
10x Guardsmen 140
Melta
Chimera (ML/HF)

10x Guardsmen 140
Melta
Chimera (ML/HF)

10x Guardsmen 140
Melta
Chimera (ML/HF)

Fast Attack
HellHound 120
Heavy Flamer Hull

HellHound 120
Heavy Flamer Hull

HellHound 120
Heavy Flamer Hull

Heavy Support
Manticore 145
Support Ace - Full Payload
Heavy Flamer Hull

Manticore 145
Heavy Flamer Hull

1,997pts.

3x Chimera squads, 3x hellhounds and 9xbullgyrns to throw at objectives. 3 tank commanders & 2 manitcore firebase.

Maybe I'll swap a LR turret for some variety, just more modelling time. Luckly I modelled my LRs in an era when sponsons were bad and now they are way overcoasted I dont feel so bad about not having any.

I think the ettiquite is to put lists in the list forum, or at minimum to put them inside spoiler markers here so they don't confuse thread folowers.

Re this I reckon ninth is anything's ballgame. My own ninth list is under revision since the surprise announcement that we can't use specialty detachments in competitive (torney) play in ninth, which, hehehe, "failed to amuse me".

Goonhammer has a nice little article up, about Guard in 9th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm, I'm really getting tempted by the Disciplined Shooters and Wilderness Survivors combo, using bolter/plasma squads. Permanent cover frees up so much worry about your movement phase, and 18" rapid fire does the same thing. I'm going to have to at least test it.

However, I think this spoils my original brigade idea. Any vehicles you bring basically get no traits. I had written off the second detachment, but maybe 3cp isn't a huge ask for extremely powerful traits. It really is the sort of thing that would need to be playtested, as if I have sufficient CP then it is a great investment to get Gunnery Expert, with repairs/pyromaniacs/spotter. Plus it could make Russes obsec in a spearhead.

I just have this odd feeling that after trying 18" double taps, I will never go back.