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 ross-128 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.

Hmm, now that you mention it, shotguns are assault weapons too. So shotgun vets actually can shoot after using MMM. Talk about a nasty surprise there, with MMM shotgun vets can have a threat range of 36" with an average of 31" (due to the average of two Advance rolls). They can just go Speedy Gonzalez across the board, shotgunning and burninating as they go.

Stick Harker near them, with his assault heavy bolter, and you have a beastly Catachan force.

MMM is in place of shooting, so I don't think you can still fire.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.

Hmm, now that you mention it, shotguns are assault weapons too. So shotgun vets actually can shoot after using MMM. Talk about a nasty surprise there, with MMM shotgun vets can have a threat range of 36" with an average of 31" (due to the average of two Advance rolls). They can just go Speedy Gonzalez across the board, shotgunning and burninating as they go.

Stick Harker near them, with his assault heavy bolter, and you have a beastly Catachan force.

See, now I'm just imagining them double-timing through a jungle, singing a running cadence while they shoot stuff.

"I said MP, MP, don't arrest me,
Arrest Sgt. Harker behind the tree!
He stole the whisky, I stole the wine,
And all I do is double time!"

 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.

4 Bullgryns might not be a 'death star', but they are pretty darn good.

Have you taken a close look at the Bullgryn Maul? It's +2 STR, -1 AP, 2 damage.
The unit, on the turn it charges, basically has 17 autocannon attacks that hit on a 3+.
The unit has T5, 3 wounds and a 2+ save.

That would kill ~3.7 terminators or ~5 Primus marines.
It would do ~7.5 wounds to a T7 vehicle.

Those 4 models clock in at 168 points.

Edit :
10 vets with 3 PGs and 1 HF would be killing 3.5 MEQ, 1.2 TEQ, or 1.76 primus marines.
Frankie and Reece said Bullgryns are the bomb. The math is checking out. 4 Bullgryns in a valk can be a very nasty shock for an opponent.

Biophysical wrote:
MMM is in place of shooting, so I don't think you can still fire.

Hmm, reading it again that does seem to be the case. Guess they already thought of that. Guess the only benefit to that setup then is they basically have Aim! and Forward for the Emperor! passively, so you can use your orders on something else.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, if they had let something that silly get through they probably would have FAQ'd it later.

 labmouse42 wrote:
One question is : How good are transports if you are deep striking in Scions?
Take a chimera. With dual HB the tank comes in at ~90 points. While the platform is durable, how good is that? At this point I'm just not seeing it as 'awesome'. The dual HF version is 110 points.
A Taurox prime is also fairly expensive once you add on a battle cannon and 2 autocannons. It clocks in at 120 with a storm bolter.

At that point it seems smarter to use the Scions without transport. Guard is a shooting army and with the necessity of keeping units together for buff bubbles in the new edition it will be even more important to keep your army together, making you vulnerable to assault units that can get multiple units to you.
Ork hordes are not that much of a problem with massed lasguns alone, but take e.g. horde marines, especially with former AP3 pie plates being much less potent...

Then a 10 men Scion squad anchoring your gunline with FOUR plasma guns, a sergeant with a 5pt plasma pistol, a vox (which I would leave out for deep-striking units to be honest, you are likely to be outside of the order range if you don't deepstrike a scion command nearby and it costs you 15 points for a scion who has to replace his hellgun with a hotshot-pistol with a pathetic 6" range) and 4 ablative rifle guys that can pewpew 16 hotshot rounds at 9" (and 8 at 18") with an insta-passed order costs you 133 points and they will easily murder or cripple an entire marine squad each turn (yes, even at 24" with 4 plasma shots) becomes pretty attractive . And with the new cover system the better your armour save the more you profit from cover, getting a 3+ save rather than a 4+ save is easily worth the extra 3 points over vets, especially if you need troops for capturing objectives.

In short for 133 points you get absolute MEQ and TEQ murder with a 3+ save in terrain. And that's just the 4-9 plasma shots before taking any hotshots and orders into account. And you get a scatter-free 0 point deployment anytime (even turn 1) everywhere on the table to grab objectives (extra hilarity if it's in cover and the opponent has all that plasma waiting for him) or if you play against another shooty army, so why even consider a transport?
That's also what puts Scions above Vets for me. Sure, you can save a few points by taking Vets, but with that transport they'll need you'll end up paying more for worse performance and less flexibility. Especially in all-comers lists.

The death strike is cut 3d6 hits which hit on a 4+ and do mortal wounds WOW. then on a 4+ it does d3 mortal wounds to any unit within 6in.

I think its time I buy and magnetize a baneblade. Those vehicles are amazing.

Now the big issue is this vehicle doesn't shoot immediately when everything s clumped together in turn 1 or 2 and likely fire off in turn 5-6 or may never fire and the game ends =(.

Its not really competitive but it sure is a fun item.

If anyone enjoys playing apoc the shadwosword is a must have to quickly kill off those titananic models.

There is SOOOO much you can do with the guard and astra militarum in general its going to take a while to digest all this info.
Cant wait to see the forgeworld book either.

Huh, I didn't notice before that pretty much all our "Support HQ" units got moved to the Elite slot. Commissars, Master of Ordinance, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Techpriest, Priest, and Command Squad, all Elites now. The Platoon Commander also went from Troops to Elite. Filling HQ slots might be harder than I thought, and our Elite slots might be a bit crowded.

Looks like our actual HQ options consist of the Company Commander, Lord Commissar/Yarrick, the named Company Commanders, Tank Commander/Pask, Tempestor Prime, and the Primaris Psyker.

Of those, the Company Commander is the cheapest way to fill an HQ slot at 30 points, the Tempestor Prime is second at 40. The Lord Commissar and Primaris Psyker are both 50 (due to the latter coming with a 12-point Force Stave).

On the bright side, that means if you're going for a Brigade detachment, the only requirement that will be difficult to fill will be Fast Attack. I suppose it also means you should mostly take a Company Commander over a Platoon Commander: they're the best way to fill up those HQ slots anyway, while a Platoon Commander would be taking Elite slots away from your Commissars.

It also means if you go for Battalion spam you're going to have plenty of CCs by the time you're done filling those minimum HQ slots, because that's just about all you've got to put in there. Though Battalion spam will give plenty of Elite slots to work with (and plenty of slots in general).

 ross-128 wrote:
...Ordinance...

It's ordnance, vile heretic scum! (-:

Going to make a bit of a mock list, although I'm thinking Tempestor and 20 scions may have to fit. Other things I really want to try:

10 ratlings,
Manticores and a MoO,
Conscripts backed up with priest and commissar.
Valkyrie with Shotgun vets.

So many options to try!

Is it just me or do Leman Russ' seem disturbingly weak for what used to be an AV14 vehicle?

1 T and 2 W tougher than a rhino?

Just noticed a valkyrie has 14! And hard to hit! What the hell!

Also, chimeras and rhinos are identical? Where'd my AV12 go? Same place as my fire points I guess.

Why do artillery, some of which were open topped, have an extra wound?

Lastly, rest in peace Exterminator, twin link will be missed.

I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.

This is my first stab at a 2k list. It uses a supreme command and vanguard detachment.

The amount of firepower it has is pretty darn good. The big weakness is that it's lacking in bodies.
I might turn the 4 scions command squads into just scions and drop a prime. Right now it's set to drop 1 prime next to each other squad to give orders. This lets them maximize their PGs with very little risk to themselves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.

Oh my screen both are showing as 132 base.

 labmouse42 wrote:
This is my first stab at a 2k list. It uses a supreme command and vanguard detachment.

The amount of firepower it has is pretty darn good. The big weakness is that it's lacking in bodies.
I might turn the 4 scions command squads into just scions and drop a prime. Right now it's set to drop 1 prime next to each other squad to give orders. This lets them maximize their PGs with very little risk to themselves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.

Oh my screen both are showing as 132 base.

Sorry was looking at powerlevel I forgot the weapon cost isn't baked into power level.

Hmm... here's something to consider: Mortar teams are 9 points per model (keeping in mind that a HWT counts as a single 2-wound model) for one mortar each. A Wyvern is 93 points per model (85 base plus an 8 point heavy bolter) for four mortars and a heavy bolter... but for those 93 points it gets to re-roll wounds on its mortars, T6, and a 3+ armor save.

So, which would be better, 9 mortars with 18 T3/5+ wounds for 81 points, or 4 re-rolling mortars and a HB with 11 T6/3+ wounds for 93 points? Seems like a tough call to me.

 ross-128 wrote:
So, which would be better, 9 mortars...

And 9 lasguns!

I know I'm not the only person wondering how our beloved baneblades were treated by 8th so BEHOLD the points of a stock (chassis+basic weapons) baneblade vs other superheavies

Baneblade 499pt
knight paladin 458pt
Wraithknight 502pt

I think it honestly depends on which models you have. Both seem good.

 Ir0njack wrote:
I know I'm not the only person wondering how our beloved baneblades were treated by 8th so BEHOLD the points of a stock (chassis+basic weapons) baneblade vs other superheavies

Baneblade 499pt
knight paladin 458pt
Wraithknight 502pt

I'm rather surprised what they did to the Stormsword. It used to be a huge 10" template. Now it is d6 shots, albeit with 2 and pick highest. Just seems really odd.

I'm rather intrigued by the idea of 4 flamer sponsons, although moving is probably a bad idea with the -1 to hit on your main gun.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, which would be better, 9 mortars...

And 9 lasguns!

You know, that's a good point, it doesn't say anything about replacing the lasguns. The option to form a HWT out of two Infantry Squad models doesn't say anything about replacing lasguns either (though the special weapon one does, so that's one lasgun gone).

I wonder if they can fire their heavy weapon and both lasguns in the same turn. Though that's mostly relevant for Infantry Squads with an integrated HWT getting a FRFSRF order.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, which would be better, 9 mortars...

And 9 lasguns!

You know, that's a good point, it doesn't say anything about replacing the lasguns. The option to form a HWT out of two Infantry Squad models doesn't say anything about replacing lasguns either (though the special weapon one does, so that's one lasgun gone).

I wonder if they can fire their heavy weapon and both lasguns in the same turn. Though that's mostly relevant for Infantry Squads with an integrated HWT getting a FRFSRF order.

They sure can fire both! The only restrictions are that you have to choose all pistols or all other weapons.

Well that's really nice. A fully kitted infantry squad can fire 8 lasguns instead of 6 (in addition to their heavy/special weapons) now. Now if only I could give the Sergeant a lasgun too. I guess a bolter will do, but a bolter can't FRFSRF.

Still, an extra two lasguns per squad really adds up!

This is another list I threw together at 1850. It has 164 models total. Including the base 3 CP every army starts with, it has 14 CP to use during the game (!!)
The idea with this list is to maximize the number of 4 point models and just spam the board with tons of them.
The army can throw out 7 orders a turn. Each troop has a vox caster, so the order range is pretty decent.
There are 27 PGs, 12 HBs, and 18 LCs and 7 plasma pistols.

HQ
Creed
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Troops
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster

Elites
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons

Fast Attack
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon

Glad to see those sentinels

Company Commander 30
Harker 50
Veterans + 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol 86
Veterans + 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol 86
Veterans + 3 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol 86

338 points

Harker buffs all the squads, the Officer buffs 2 with Orders. Everybody overcharges all the time. At 12", your're looking at 21 plasma gun shots. Overcharged, not counting orders, that's probably 16 hits thanks to Harker. So that murders a couple terminator squads. It also wounds 8 times against T8 heavy armor, after a couple saves, your're looking at 12 wounds thanks to 2 damage on the overcharging plasmas. That's a Russ Equivalent. Not quite a Land Raider.

Now, this group of miscreants isn't all that tough, and their damage output is less than half at 24", but the low 300s seems really solid for the damage they can put out.

More extreme:

Harker 50
Special Weapon Squad 24 + 3 Plasma Guns 21 = 45
6 if these plasma squads is 270
320 total

24" = 9-10 hits (overcharged)
12" = 19-20 hits (overcharged)

Is this as good as I think it is?

I'm having a hard time deciding on troops. I manage ok with all the other slots, I know what I want from them. Troops, however...

I'm thinking some medium sized conscript squads with Commissar backup, then some infantry squads to give a fire base with officers. It is just difficult. I know they are cheap (60 for a simple ac/gl squad) but I am just so used 20+ man platoon squads with voxes that it is hard to break the habit.

Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but command squads and special weapons squads have the same points cost and both take up an elites slot, but you get BS 4 and an extra special weapon in the command squad (at the expense of two guys with lasguns). Doesn't this mean that command squads are strictly better than special weapons squads as suicide units (which was there primary purpose anyways)?

BONUS: You can fit 3 command squads in a Valkyrie.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but command squads and special weapons squads have the same points cost and both take up an elites slot, but you get BS 4 and an extra special weapon in the command squad (at the expense of two guys with lasguns). Doesn't this mean that command squads are strictly better than special weapons squads as suicide units (which was there primary purpose anyways)?

BONUS: You can fit 3 command squads in a Valkyrie.

That's not a bad idea. Good for suicide squads. 4 meltas dropping in with a vox caster next to a land raider is pretty sweet.

Edit :
I've been looking and I don't see anything that says you are not locked in combat with a vehicle. It appears that you can throw your chimera at an incoming squad to keep it tied up in combat until they either fall back or destroy it.
That's a nice looking tactical squad there. It would be a shame if something were to RAM it...

 labmouse42 wrote:
This is another list I threw together at 1850. It has 164 models total. Including the base 3 CP every army starts with, it has 14 CP to use during the game (!!)
The idea with this list is to maximize the number of 4 point models and just spam the board with tons of them.
The army can throw out 7 orders a turn. Each troop has a vox caster, so the order range is pretty decent.
There are 27 PGs, 12 HBs, and 18 LCs and 7 plasma pistols.

HQ
Creed
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Troops
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster

Elites
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons

Fast Attack
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon

A list along those lines will be very strong, no matter the faction. A lot of armies will stock up on multiwound guns and won't have even nearly enough anti-infantry weaponry to take out that many guys. Everyone who can do hordes to support points efficient shooting will be doing well, I'm guessing. If you don't have even one model with more than one wound, you're nerfing your opponents weaponry before the game even begins. All the excess damage will be lost automatically.

You can throw a Culexus Assassin or two in there if psykers become a thing in the meta.

CountCyrus wrote:
Is it just me or do Leman Russ' seem disturbingly weak for what used to be an AV14 vehicle?

1 T and 2 W tougher than a rhino?

Just noticed a valkyrie has 14! And hard to hit! What the hell!

Also, chimeras and rhinos are identical? Where'd my AV12 go? Same place as my fire points I guess.

Why do artillery, some of which were open topped, have an extra wound?

Lastly, rest in peace Exterminator, twin link will be missed.

TBH Leman Russ tanks were super weak in the current edition too. If guys came up close to you with melee/melta bombs/etc those tanks were decimated. I believe that tanks are now much more survivable than before.

Does anyone know how formations are still supposed to be legal? They did say that there are no formations but the armies would still be legal.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:


Does anyone know how formations are still supposed to be legal? They did say that there are no formations but the armies would still be legal.

No formations. You have to fit your formation based army into the new detachments, which are flexible enough to work for your old formations.