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 Polonius wrote:
Four autocannon shots will do some work, but I'm not sure that range is as big a deal as it's been in past editions. Four decent shots is still worse than 20 S4 shots...

30 with volley guns and storm bolter.

I expect pure infantry lists to be extremely strong in this edition, at least as long as the list is built well.

We've gone over the ninja stuff that plasma scions can do extensively, 4/model for BS4+ infantry is amazing, the buff to FRFSRF is stronk, 4/model for heavy weapon teams is an absolute steal that makes them by far the most cost-effective way (if a bit fragile) to put a heavy weapon on the field.

Commissars are good, all the orders are good, wounding anything on 6s is a huge deal for the lasgun that was already wounding most infantry on 5/6 anyway, and heavy weapon teams keep their lasguns now so an infantry squad with a heavy weapon still has 9 lasguns. The only thing that could have improved on the "get more lasguns" front would be if we could give sergeants lasguns too.

Multi-wound hits not transferring between models also means that all the AT weapons in an opposing all-rounder list will be seeing anywhere from 1/2 to 5/6 of their damage potential wasted, damage potential that they're paying for with across-the-board points hikes on AT weapons.

 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.

I've not looked the dakka-per-point of those.
At a 500 point cost, it seems to be very intensive.
I could swap out Pask and the 2 executioners for a LoW in the list below. I don't know if a knight / super heavy tank would be able to throw out the same firepower.

The main use I can envision for the base Taurox is to hold a cheap squad (infantry or SWS) and skulk until a final dash for an objective.

It's a quick little thing, and cheap as transports go. The problem is that it pays just a bit too much for it's weapons, and suffers from what Warmachine players call Skornergy: when a model has two different and exclusive abilities, yet pays for both.

I don't know if it would be better classed as "cool" or "amusing", but technically 500 conscripts with 10 company commanders and 6 carefully-placed commissars is a valid 2000-point list.

Doesn't strike me as terribly practical, and I pity the guy who has to paint it (or maybe not, since they would clearly have more free time and money than me), but any matchup that ends with "vs 500 Conscripts" automatically has a ton of entertainment value.

Better bring your movement trays though!

Hmm, one interesting thing I note is Color Sergeant Kell can grant an additional order to any Imperial Guard officer, not just Creed. He might be useful for someone running a vox network, since at 50 points he might actually save you a couple commanders if you cluster three or more around him.

Since it's a flat +1 he can also do the interesting trick of turning a platoon commander into a company commander. That would be more useful if platoon commanders were HQs though, as it is, by the time you fill up your mandatory HQ slots you usually have plenty of Orders to sling around and have no need for tricks like that.

By the way, anyone got any thoughts on Yarrick?

He's expensive, but he is a Commissar who basically hands out Take Aim! to everything within 6".

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.

I've not looked the dakka-per-point of those.
At a 500 point cost, it seems to be very intensive.
I could swap out Pask and the 2 executioners for a LoW in the list below. I don't know if a knight / super heavy tank would be able to throw out the same firepower.

Spoiler:

HQ
Task Commander Pask w/Executioner + 2 PC + HB + SB
Company Commander
Company Commander

Troops
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 PGs
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns
Scion Squad : 4 Hot Shot Volley Guns

Elites
Commissar
Commissar

Heavy
LR Executioner w/2 PC sponsons, HB hull, SB
LR Executioner w/2 PC sponsons, HB hull, SB

Dedicated Transports
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter
Taurox Prime : 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns, Taurox Gatling Gun, Storm Bolter

I don't think the superheavy is worth it. Those executioners with Pask are pretty cool. You should mathhammer them against the PG Scions, to test the point by point Dakka difference. The Leman Russ survivability is pretty weak points wise, but you definately have the right setup, and Pask works there perfectly. It'll look great.

The only thing a Knight would do is act as a counter assault unit against assault armies. The titanic feet tap dance is pretty strong. It won't come anywhere close to dishing that firepower in the shooting phase.

I don't know if it would be better classed as "cool" or "amusing", but technically 500 conscripts with 10 company commanders and 6 carefully-placed commissars is a valid 2000-point list.

A Brimstone Horror has a 4+ invulnerable save and T3 1 wound, and costs just 2 points. You can take 200 of them and still have 1600 points of actual army left. I pity both the guy who has to assemble and paint that army, and the guy who has to play against it.

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, anyone got any thoughts on Yarrick?

He's expensive, but he is a Commissar who basically hands out Take Aim! to everything within 6".

Why not keyword your army <catachan> and use sgt harker for 50pts for the same take aim effect?

On an unrelated note, i am torn between using yarrik or straken as my "Ash" converted model since my army isnt Renegades, they are simply the army of darkness.

It's a tough call. Obviously he's replacing a Commissar that you would take anyway, but even so 100 points is a steep premium even for someone as amazing as Yarrick.

He does fill an HQ slot and basically bring one Order with him, so I guess theoretically you could also drop a company commander to bring the premium down to 70 points.

Another plus side is that since he grants it by an aura instead of an actual order, it can stack with other orders like FRFSRF. Definitely powerful against Orks, when it turns into full re-rolls.

Still, 70 points even after replacing a Commander and a Commissar is pretty expensive. It's actually kind of hard to say if he's actually worth quite that many points, but maybe that's a sign that he's well-balanced.

slargy wrote:
Why not keyword your army <catachan> and use sgt harker for 50pts for the same take aim effect?

Basically because I like Yarrick and not Harker.

 ross-128 wrote:
It's a tough call. Obviously he's replacing a Commissar that you would take anyway, but even so 100 points is a steep premium even for someone as amazing as Yarrick.

He does fill an HQ slot and basically bring one Order with him, so I guess theoretically you could also drop a company commander to bring the premium down to 70 points.

Another plus side is that since he grants it by an aura instead of an actual order, it can stack with other orders like FRFSRF. Definitely powerful against Orks, when it turns into full re-rolls.

Still, 70 points even after replacing a Commander and a Commissar is pretty expensive. It's actually kind of hard to say if he's actually worth quite that many points, but maybe that's a sign that he's well-balanced.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I kinda want to use him because I just like him in general, but compared to Commissars and Company Commanders he's pretty damn pricey.

I'm also sad that he doesn't get back up anymore.

 vipoid wrote:
I'm also sad that he doesn't get back up anymore.

He gets a 3+ roll to avoid his last wound being lost, which is pretty similar.

labmouse42:

I was bored so I did the mathhammer on fully kitted Stormlord vs Leman Russ Executioner vs T7 3+

Stormlord at 592 points, going with vulcan megabolters, 3 heavy stubbers, 5 twin heavy bolters and 4 lascannons does a grand total of 11,5 unsaved wounds to T7 3+ multiwound targets.

A Leman Russ Executioner at 192 points does a puny 1,91 unsaved wounds at normal setting (no supercharge).

Stormlord does 1 wound for every 51,47 points it spends, while the Leman Russ has to spend 100,52 points to do just 1 wound.

The 3,08 Executioners you get for the Stormlord's price tag do get 37 wounds though total as opposed to the 26 on the Stormlord, so the survivability is higher.

Lastly, just to remind ourselves, the Gatling Taurox only needed to spend 36 points to put 1 wound on the T7 3+, and survivability wise they already get 61 wounds for the Stormlord's price tag.

Verdict? Compared to the trucks, both the Russes and the superheavies suck ass.

Note: LR Exec isn't quite as terrible with Pask's force multiplier effect, and they can supercharge when the going gets tough and they're going to die anyway, but the standard numbers aren't encouraging.

It's the age of Imperial Guard technicals, and I am incredibly excited by the conversion potential in this regard (since the Taurox is begging for a conversion)

my guess is this is the edition of scions, plasma scions everywhere.

Also I am sad GW didn't make the punisher 40x str 5 shots..... I wanted to play with a shoe box full of dice and just dump it on the table every time I get into the shooting phase. It makes me worry the vulture I bought from forgeworld wont be as cool as it use to be. Hopefully Fw made rules for the sentinel powerlifter. I had to buy that model, because it is so freakin cool looking.

 Trickstick wrote:
He gets a 3+ roll to avoid his last wound being lost, which is pretty similar.

The main difference is that the current rule means he can easily be overkilled (since you have to roll against every wound).

 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.

I did some mathahmmering, and you are welcome to check my work.

This is the summary of what I found. I ran a comparison of Wounds of Damage per Point. I ran the numbers vs Rhinos, MEQ and GEQ
The takeaways are the following
* Always take 4 sponsons. You are already paying for the platform, you might as well grab the extra weapons
* These tanks are really good at killing big creatures. They are MUCH less effective against smaller targets.
* As a general all around winner, I would give it to the hellhammer.

The fact that you get -1 to hit for all of the super heavies really hurts, making me only want to use them as "sit back and shoot" units. I love the idea of a flamer covered hellhammer burning and charging units, but you really hurt your fire by moving. I guess I'll use the shadowsword to sit and shoot. I wonder what size targets it can reliably one shot with just the main gun.

I checked the Tempestus Scions too.

10 Scions with 4 plasma guns, 5 hot shot lasguns, one plasma pistol, for 128 points, at 9" so plasma gun rapid fire range, do 2,86 unsaved wounds to T7 3+. They spend 44,75 points to do one wound.

10 Scions with 4 hot shot volley guns but otherwise the same setup do 3,018 wounds to T7 3+, being stronger, but since they're slightly more expensive they spend 45,06 points per wound meaning they're weaker but marginally so. However, the supercharge potential is situationally so good that I can't imagine skipping on plasma.

What does this mean? Gatling Taurox is better than either of the Scion setups, but considering we need troops units, and the 44,75 score is still really good (and when you supercharge the damage goes through the roof), and the survivability by wound per point is also decent (there too weaker than the Taurox), it's an excellent addition.

I should run these numbers all again against MEQ too, but I don't think it will change the pecking order in any way.

EDIT: Thanks labmouse for your numbers and links. It's hilarious how strong this little truck is.

 Therion wrote:
10 Scions with 4 hot shot volley guns but otherwise the same setup do 3,018 wounds to T7 3+, being stronger, but since they're slightly more expensive they spend 45,06 points per wound meaning they're weaker but marginally so. However, the supercharge potential is situationally so good that I can't imagine skipping on plasma.

I can think of a lot of times. You won't always be double tapping plasma. There are times you want to reach out and touch someone at 24"
If you are facing an assault army, you don't want to bunch up your units. Having a longer range means you can spread them out a bit more.
I plan on mixing up my PG scions and hot shot volley guns.

Edit :
And thanks again for your math work. I've just ordered 2 more taurox and I plan on getting 2 more today LOL
I was shocked to see just how bad LRBTs are. I'm very sad that I own 3 now...

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
10 Scions with 4 hot shot volley guns but otherwise the same setup do 3,018 wounds to T7 3+, being stronger, but since they're slightly more expensive they spend 45,06 points per wound meaning they're weaker but marginally so. However, the supercharge potential is situationally so good that I can't imagine skipping on plasma.

I can think of a lot of times. You won't always be double tapping plasma. There are times you want to reach out and touch someone at 24"
If you are facing an assault army, you don't want to bunch up your units. Having a longer range means you can spread them out a bit more.

I plan on mixing up my PG scions and hot shot volley guns.

Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?

I definately agree the 9" rapid fire range is being generous, but on the other hand, against multiwound targets you'd probably super-charge quite often to get rid of the targets for good, and considering it changes your to wound rolls against T7 from 4+ to 3+, and doubles the damage, it really is a dramatic change in kill potential. They really are incredible when going all super saiyan. Hardest point by point hitters in the game that I've checked at least. The 4 rapid firing plasma guns go from doing 2,22 wounds to 5,92, bringing the squads total to an amazing 19,48 points per 1 unsaved wound by a T7 3+ target. FIVE times more efficient than a Leman Russ Executioner =)

And thanks again for your math work. I've just ordered 2 more taurox and I plan on getting 2 more today LOL
I was shocked to see just how bad LRBTs are. I'm very sad that I own 3 now...

Use the LRBTs against your friends for more fun times, and save the trucks for your enemies ^_^

 Therion wrote:
Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?

It probably does. At worst, thats a -1 to hit for one turn. At best you deploy them ahead of time where you want them to be effective.
The key here is you can take some of both. You are not limited to either-or.

 Therion wrote:
I definately agree the 9" rapid fire range is being generous, but on the other hand, against multiwound targets you'd probably super-charge quite often to get rid of the targets for good, and considering it changes your to wound rolls against T7 from 4+ to 3+, and doubles the damage, it really is a dramatic change in kill potential. They really are incredible when going all super saiyan. Hardest point by point hitters in the game that I've checked at least.

Agreed.
I think an army of nothing by scions and taurox would have some range problems. Having some long range tools is useful. The trick is finding a cost-effective solution for this role.

Good point on the super-charging. Especially as you greatly lower the risk (1/36) by issuing orders to the unit.

I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Perkins that mech guard is definitely back. I think some people are really underestimating what vehicles are bringing to the table compared to infantry. Consider a dual Heavy Flamer Chimera loaded with 3xflamer 1xheavy flamer shotgun vets and a platoon commander. It's going to be in your face turn two and turn one it will be popping smoke and possibly in cover. That is a unit that you cannot ignore, and yet it is very difficult to remove that chimera. Those heavy flamers also ignore all to hit penalties and are quite terrifying weapons.

I wouldn't personally put the heavy flamers on the Russ because I would be keeping it back while the Hellhounds, Flameras and Heavy Flamer sents charge in.

 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?

It probably does. At worst, thats a -1 to hit for one turn. At best you deploy them ahead of time where you want them to be effective.
The key here is you can take some of both. You are not limited to either-or.

 Therion wrote:
I definately agree the 9" rapid fire range is being generous, but on the other hand, against multiwound targets you'd probably super-charge quite often to get rid of the targets for good, and considering it changes your to wound rolls against T7 from 4+ to 3+, and doubles the damage, it really is a dramatic change in kill potential. They really are incredible when going all super saiyan. Hardest point by point hitters in the game that I've checked at least.

Agreed.
I think an army of nothing by scions and taurox would have some range problems. Having some long range tools is useful. The trick is finding a cost-effective solution for this role.

Good point on the super-charging. Especially as you greatly lower the risk (1/36) by issuing orders to the unit.

I agree there should be something more, but I'm not sure what it could be that wouldn't absolutely suck in comparison. The Taurox' are quite fast though, and the Scions deploy wherever they want, so I'm not that sure they'll struggle with range that much.

Heavy weapon squads will just get shot to death, but maybe it doesn't matter since they're really cheap? Infantry platoons are cheap but they don't really add you any reach that you didn't already have (they just add objective holders for a bargain basement price).

Maybe indirect fire? Wyverns and Manticores? They'll reach anything anywhere, and once again Yarrick bubble buffs all of their accuracy if he's camping there.

 Therion wrote:
I agree there should be something more, but I'm not sure what it could be that wouldn't absolutely suck in comparison. The Taurox' are quite fast though, and the Scions deploy wherever they want, so I'm not that sure they'll struggle with range that much.

I wonder how HWS's stack up here...
They are stupid cheap right now (4 points per squad + weapon cost) but are very fragile.

 Therion wrote:
Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?

Disembarking counts as movement even if your don't move afterwards (page 183). So yeah, I'm not such a fan of the volley gun. I guess if you want to use scions for gunline, but it seems a waste of the awesome deepstrike.

I am rather concerned about the amount of table space what will be outside 9" of an enemy. That could be very hard to find in some games, 9" covers a lot of space.

EDIT: I'm recalculating because I don't believe it

Yep, I miscalculated on the Wyvern. It isn't that great.

Manticore is efficient against all multiwound targets, and doesn't cost that much at all, but what I don't inherently like about it is that it sucks if there are no such targets available. In an army like this it might be a good place to use command re-rolls though (if you roll some 1's for the 2D6 shots).

It does have 120" range, and pays only 39,7 points to do 1 wound on T7 3+ multiwound, so if range to tough targets was a concern, there you go. Have three.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Perkins that mech guard is definitely back. I think some people are really underestimating what vehicles are bringing to the table compared to infantry. Consider a dual Heavy Flamer Chimera loaded with 3xflamer 1xheavy flamer shotgun vets and a platoon commander. It's going to be in your face turn two and turn one it will be popping smoke and possibly in cover. That is a unit that you cannot ignore, and yet it is very difficult to remove that chimera. Those heavy flamers also ignore all to hit penalties and are quite terrifying weapons.

I wouldn't personally put the heavy flamers on the Russ because I would be keeping it back while the Hellhounds, Flameras and Heavy Flamer sents charge in.

 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective

But Perkins is clearly wrong because Master of Ordinance says everything got nerfed. Russes were unplayable in 7th. Nowhere to go but up.

Martel732 wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Perkins that mech guard is definitely back. I think some people are really underestimating what vehicles are bringing to the table compared to infantry. Consider a dual Heavy Flamer Chimera loaded with 3xflamer 1xheavy flamer shotgun vets and a platoon commander. It's going to be in your face turn two and turn one it will be popping smoke and possibly in cover. That is a unit that you cannot ignore, and yet it is very difficult to remove that chimera. Those heavy flamers also ignore all to hit penalties and are quite terrifying weapons.

I wouldn't personally put the heavy flamers on the Russ because I would be keeping it back while the Hellhounds, Flameras and Heavy Flamer sents charge in.

 axisofentropy wrote:
another perspective

But Perkins is clearly wrong because Master of Ordinance says everything got nerfed. Russes were unplayable in 7th. Nowhere to go but up.

Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:
EDIT: I'm recalculating because I don't believe it

Yep, I miscalculated on the Wyvern. It isn't that great.

Manticore is efficient against all multiwound targets, and doesn't cost that much at all, but what I don't inherently like about it is that it sucks if there are no such targets available. In an army like this it might be a good place to use command re-rolls though (if you roll some 1's for the 2D6 shots).

It does have 120" range, and pays only 39,7 points to do 1 wound on T7 3+ multiwound, so if range to tough targets was a concern, there you go. Have three.

I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.

Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...