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Mavnas wrote:

I think the question with HWS is are they still alive after turn 1? This question is extra relevant if you're constantly going second. I think some of the sturdier platforms for Lascannons make up for cost by firing for more than a round or two.

Well, it's easy, you just hide them behind your tan....

oh.

From the games i have played so far, against any ranged army. Heavy weapons teams are going to die extremely quickly, especially since you go second most times. Its more effective to use them in infantry squads for ablative wounds or put them in a baneblade transport variant

That's pretty much why I've been saying expensive stuff like lascannons should be embedded in infantry squads. The squad can keep them alive by taking hits for them. It also deters your opponent from targeting them with multi-wound weapons, because most of those hits are going to be absorbed by 1-wound models.

You're also not really paying any more for them than a HWS would, since I don't see anything about the two models that form the HWT giving up their lasguns (something that is reinforced by the HWS having lasguns in addition to their heavy weapon), so the squad isn't actually losing anything to take that heavy weapon. They go from having 9 lasguns and 10 wounds to 9 lasguns, 10 wounds, and a heavy weapon. And because neither is a pistol, RAW you can fire the heavy weapon and the HWT's lasguns in the same turn, with full split-fire.

Or you could embed them in Veteran squads if you want them to hit on 3+. Or give them to Command Squads if you want to have 2 ablative wounds per weapon instead of 8 (and still hit on 3+).

An independent HWS should be the domain of cheap things you won't miss much, like mortars.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have used Hydras in my games supporting my Baneblade company and found them to be a thunderous 'meh.'

Against their designated targets (things with W2) then they're fantastic; they shred Terminators (every failed 3+ is a dead model - only Plasma can say that but it has to be overcharged!), Primaris Marines, and other light-armoured vehicles with the Fly keyword (fantastic against Land Speeders!).

However, against heavy armour (e.g. Leman Russ tanks or Land Raiders) that doesn't fly, or against 1W models, its potential is largely wasted.

I've also found that firing 8 Autocannon shots at 72" attracts inordinate amounts of attention from enemy anti-tank assets. Even with three Baneblades roaming the field, the enemy will dedicate some portion of their power to removing the Hydras first.

So, it's a specialist piece of kit. That's fine, especially in larger games, and depending on the meta, it's ideal targets might be shockingly common.

Per the hydra as mentioned only a few flyers actually have the hard to hit rule.

Skimmers, jump infantry and flying monstrous creatures from my knowledge don't have hard to hit. Unless on its data sheet.

But as other said with 72" range you park it in your back field and you will pretty much be able to target the whole board aside from los blocking terrain.

But obviously hydras have a specific target to fire at and they seem to do very well with it. It would seem if they don't have targets then they will still be able to add some decent fire support coupled with wyverns to focus infantry and manticores for antitank. Get some conscript blobs to screen from assault. Plasma scions to intercept any big scary targets. Sounds like a rather decent fire base.

Huh. 4 MoOs are priced to be just 10 points cheaper than the default LRBT.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

So, are infantry platoons and combined squads gone? I can't seem to find anything saying they are still there.

If they are gone...what's the point of even playing guard if you can't have large infantry squads, which need to be large to do anything other than do a simple trade of models with the enemy, in my experience.

A Hydra is 123 points, with a Hydra Quad Autocannon and a Heavy Bolter, 125 or 127 with a Storm Bolter or Heavy Stubber respectively. A HWS with autocannons (if you'd ever want them for some reason) is 57 points, or about half.

Against any non-flying targets, you get 2.67 hits with the autocannons and 1.5 with the Heavy Bolter. The HWS gets 3 hits with their autocannons.

So you pay little more than double the points cost for equal or slightly superior damage output and more than double the toughness (T6, W11, 3+) against most targets and weapons. Versus fliers, it's not even funny how much better the Hydra is.

So if you know you are likely to face anything with fly, you might as well bring a Hydra if you are worried about it as it's not that crippled against other targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heafstaag wrote:
So, are infantry platoons and combined squads gone? I can't seem to find anything saying they are still there.

If they are gone...what's the point of even playing guard if you can't have large infantry squads, which need to be large to do anything other than do a simple trade of models with the enemy, in my experience.

Yes, they are gone apart from massive squads of Conscripts. Instead, you get a lot of squads as each squad is a single troop choice (or elite/heavy for SWS/HWS respectively), leading to a) almost never becoming first player b) having an obscene amount of command points.

Playing as DKoK, I've certainly managed without combined squads, and with our new morale buffs etc. I'm sure it won't be that bad.

How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!

what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)

and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean 6 in infantry squads taking up 6 troop slots?! What the hell. That's not impressive at all. I rarely used all the troop slots in the guard, but still...I usually ran 100 or more infantry on foot...how do you get those numbers now?

And with those 100 guys on foot there would be heavy weapons squads and special weapons squads providing support. Which left slots open for tanks and artillery.

I am very downcast on the appeal (for me a least) of the guard now that its basic building block is gone, and one that was my favorite part of the game.

Heafstaag wrote:
So, are infantry platoons and combined squads gone? I can't seem to find anything saying they are still there.

If they are gone...what's the point of even playing guard if you can't have large infantry squads, which need to be large to do anything other than do a simple trade of models with the enemy, in my experience.

So, we lost combined squads, but the commissar is a bubble now. Long as you keep your squads within 6", they're all affected.

Other than that, what did those rules actually get you? Ablative bodies? You have those again to a certain extent with choosing your casualties. Not as many as in 5th ed, but it's still an improvement over 7th. Orders? Get a company commander per two squads. HQs are crazy easy to dump into your force org nowadays. I can't think of that many situations where losing blobs made guard weaker at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heafstaag wrote:
How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!

what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)

and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean 6 in infantry squads taking up 6 troop slots?! What the hell. That's not impressive at all. I rarely used all the troop slots in the guard, but still...I usually ran 100 or more infantry on foot...how do you get those numbers now?

And with those 100 guys on foot there would be heavy weapons squads and special weapons squads providing support. Which left slots open for tanks and artillery.

I am very downcast on the appeal (for me a least) of the guard now that its basic building block is gone, and one that was my favorite part of the game.

You can take multiple detachments, and it's super easy to get extra FOC slots. Go check out a store copy of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example, this is a detachment now:

HQ 3-5
Elite 3-8
Troops 6-12
Fast attack 3-5
Heavy 3-5
Flyer 0-2

Don't think of this in terms of 7th edition. Things are very different now.

Heafstaag wrote:
How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!

what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)

and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.

We can take up to three Brigade detachments now, instead of one of the old FoC. So while our platoons have been scattered to the four winds, we have quite a lot of slots to put them into (max 15 HQ, 36 Troops, 24 Elites, 15 Fast Attack, 15 Heavy Support, and 6 Flyers).

However, the change to the mandatory minimums has also moved the platoon's tax units into the other slots so we still have about the same "overhead" of mandatory models.

A lot of our former HQ and Troops units got put into Elites though, so our Elite section is a bit over-crowded, and our Troops section is a bit anemic (your choices are infantry, conscripts, or scions). The HQ slot can also be a bit on the anemic side, unless you're putting tanks in it you're going to find that you're taking more Company Commanders than you could possibly need just to meet your mandatory minimums.

Also vehicle squadrons are still a thing, so we can still get some deceptively long mileage out of those HS, FA, and Flyer slots.

Hmm.

More slots is great, but no way to combine the basic infantry platoon I just can't believe yet. That's been my building block since I started 40k!

I'd love to field 150 infantry, for example, but not in 15 groups of 10...

Lots to think about.

I just had a revelation. You can field 2 mortar 1 lascannon HWTs since everyone can split fire now. For barely more than one troop squad you can get 2 of those with 20% more wounds, double the lascannons and low dependence on commisars since at most you lose 2 models before the squad is enirely gone.

People need to look at 8th as a new game. Don't think in terms of 7th.

HWS are better now but still suffer from a lot of the same weaknesses. Lascannons are already slighly unreliable, then add on that they die very easily, hit on 5's if they move and need leadership and reroll 1's support. You can compare them to things like the Prime and point out how much cheaper they are but there are glarring weaknesses for the HWS. It also puts you into a infantry heavy army. I don't think they work very well combined with a mechanized, fast army.

I probably will look towards the Mortars as my HWS, but I'm sure if you build around the Lascannon ,AC, or even HB HWSs you could make them work.


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Heafstaag wrote:
Hmm.

More slots is great, but no way to combine the basic infantry platoon I just can't believe yet. That's been my building block since I started 40k!

I'd love to field 150 infantry, for example, but not in 15 groups of 10...

Lots to think about.

You can field the same army. In some ways it's even better. I wouldn't give up on it until you try it.

Evillain09 wrote:
People need to look at 8th as a new game. Don't think in terms of 7th.

HWS are better now but still suffer from a lot of the same weaknesses. Lascannons are already slighly unreliable, then add on that they die very easily, hit on 5's if they move and need leadership and reroll 1's support. You can compare them to things like the Prime and point out how much cheaper they are but there are glarring weaknesses for the HWS. It also puts you into a infantry heavy army. I don't think they work very well combined with a mechanized, fast army.

I probably will look towards the Mortars as my HWS, but I'm sure if you build around the Lascannon ,AC, or even HB HWSs you could make them work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heafstaag wrote:
Hmm.

More slots is great, but no way to combine the basic infantry platoon I just can't believe yet. That's been my building block since I started 40k!

I'd love to field 150 infantry, for example, but not in 15 groups of 10...

Lots to think about.

You can field the same army. In some ways it's even better. I wouldn't give up on it until you try it.

In my example above that would be 15 kps now, if kill points are still a thing, vs 3 in 7th edition. That is a huuuge change!

Heafstaag wrote:

In my example above that would be 15 kps now, if kill points are still a thing, vs 3 in 7th edition. That is a huuuge change!

Cheap screening units are gold now. Having access to conscripts is a huge boon for guard players. You can still bring 150 models in 3 squads via conscripts.

I was originally bummed by the platoon going away as I loved my blob guard with lascannons and axes. But there are ways to build around that. Use conscripts for the large blocks of models to hold objectives (they can even go about 20 inches per turn with "move move move"). Use dedicated anti assault units like ogryn to throw back assaults. It's harder to hide heavy weapons in squads now, but I don't think that's a viable way to run them anymore anyway. Using a bunker, a bastion or a stomlord to carry heavy weapon teams is probably the better way to go.

Heafstaag wrote:
How can you field everything you need wish the platoon being broken up? How are there enough slots? HWTS competing with tanks are artillery for slots?!

what do mean under point a? (never becoming first player)

and about point b... i'm not quite sure on command points. I'm just now starting to look into 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean 6 in infantry squads taking up 6 troop slots?! What the hell. That's not impressive at all. I rarely used all the troop slots in the guard, but still...I usually ran 100 or more infantry on foot...how do you get those numbers now?

And with those 100 guys on foot there would be heavy weapons squads and special weapons squads providing support. Which left slots open for tanks and artillery.

I am very downcast on the appeal (for me a least) of the guard now that its basic building block is gone, and one that was my favorite part of the game.

As others have said, you can bring as many detachments as you want and you have a lot of slots for everything.

a) You deploy unit by unit, the first player who has deployed everything goes first unless you can seize. If you have 15 units of guardsmen as well as supporting elements whilst your opponent has 10 units in total, he or she will go first.

b) It's just a bonus you get for bringing everything, but it's always nice having a lot of re-rolls when necessary. We will also get stratagems in the codex, so we'll see if it doesn't get even better.

Considering that the largest detachment is 6-12 troops and 3-5 HQ's (20-30 a piece at their cheapest), you could almost field three of them with what you have, which without equipment would be about 1000 points. You would also have 30 command points, or about 1 every phase for 6 whole turns.

But yeah, you will most likely get absolutely crushed in kill points missions. But then again, you could play with Conscripts there.

Okay, I've read up on some of the detachments, and I'm not worried about slots now! lol, there's plenty to go 'round!

My worry now is the lack of durability of guard infantry now that there are no combined squads, besides conscripts, I guess. But I have catachans and i don't think they use conscripts. I could just use catachans with a homebrew regiment, I suppose.

Still, there is a lot to think about. I do love that rough riders seem pretty good now, and with the...outrider? detachments 6 units can be taken! I may have to actually convert up a ton of rough riders. (my dream was to have more cavalry options this edition, but oh well)

On the plus side, if a squad takes 12 wound from a shooting attack then you are saving 2 wounds. Conscripts take the full 12.

One of the things that we can do better than most as IG, is fielding detachments that give us lots of command points.
So what is the best way to maximize return on those command points?

I have yet to play my first game of 8th edition, but my speculations run along the following lines.

Re-roll on weapons that have d6 attacks or similar when rolling a 1, even flamers on over watch as that would allow you to wield your command points in your opponents turn.
Re-roll on weapon damage of d6 or similar when rolling a 1, maybe even re-roll 1's on d3 damage.
Re-roll psychic rolls that fail if you bring psychers.
Strike first in melee appears to be very situational, but very good when the situation arises.

And use our command points as soon as it is possible, saving command points to turn 4 or 5 does not appear to be a good strategy from my point of view.
If you end the game with command points on hand, those points are wasted.

Is there a point where we cannot get to use all our command points?
5 turns, 4 points per turn = 20 command points. This might be the limit on what we would benefit from using only the three standard stratagems.

 Trickstick wrote:
On the plus side, if a squad takes 12 wound from a shooting attack then you are saving 2 wounds. Conscripts take the full 12.

Very true, but it also means the squad is dead a kill point is given up. Its a trade off, which is as it should be I suppose. Pros and cons to every choice you make in creating your army.

Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points), as well as some of the Tactical Objectives (51-55, 64).

However, most missions are reliant on capturing objectives, and you do that by a) having units near them and b) having more models near them than your enemy. Guess what army has a lot of units that can be spread out, AND can have a lot of models near an objective as well?

Yes, your squads will be easy to destroy, but you can literally buy three squads of guardsmen for every Tactical Squad. Some of them ought to survive and if you play infantry heavy lists you should not be unfamiliar with heavy losses.

I'd also like to add that I hope it would be a viable tactic for DKoK. I absolutely loved the Forlorn Hope rule, even if it was pretty awful a lot of times. If they price our basic infantry at 7 points a model again I will be very mad.

Cthugha wrote:
One of the things that we can do better than most as IG, is fielding detachments that give us lots of command points.
So what is the best way to maximize return on those command points?*snip*.

Hellhounds and Manticores for hits. Lascannons for damage. Rolling to-hit for Meltas.

Or any key dice rolls, a stray lasgun shot failing to put a wound on a lone single-wound character/battlesuit/etc. More situational.

A good example of a bad option is the Wyvern, rolling how many shots it gets.

 Aenarian wrote:
Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)

That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.

Cthugha wrote:
One of the things that we can do better than most as IG, is fielding detachments that give us lots of command points.
So what is the best way to maximize return on those command points?

I have yet to play my first game of 8th edition, but my speculations run along the following lines.

Re-roll on weapons that have d6 attacks or similar when rolling a 1, even flamers on over watch as that would allow you to wield your command points in your opponents turn.
Re-roll on weapon damage of d6 or similar when rolling a 1, maybe even re-roll 1's on d3 damage.
Re-roll psychic rolls that fail if you bring psychers.
Strike first in melee appears to be very situational, but very good when the situation arises.

And use our command points as soon as it is possible, saving command points to turn 4 or 5 does not appear to be a good strategy from my point of view.
If you end the game with command points on hand, those points are wasted.

Is there a point where we cannot get to use all our command points?
5 turns, 4 points per turn = 20 command points. This might be the limit on what we would benefit from using only the three standard stratagems.

Don't forget you can use reroll on your opponent's turns, once per phase, so technically you can use 70 command points.

-6 Phases per player turn, even when it's not your turn, there are dice in each phase you might roll, and thus can reroll. Plus you can spend 2CP on morale tests and fight interrupts.

Movement Phase: Your turns 5, opponent's turn 0
Psychic Phase: Your turns 5, opponent's turn 5
Shooting Phase: Your turns 5, opponent's turn 5
Charging Phase:Your turns 5, opponent's turn 5
Fight Phase: Your turn 5, opponent's turn 10
Morale Phase: Your turn 10, opponent's turn 10

However in match play your limited to 3 detachents at 2k points, thus 36 CPs

 Trickstick wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)

That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.

Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?

Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)

That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.

Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?

Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.

But some armies don't really have good options not to drop lots of small units. Especially now that all units can split fire, kill points are just dumb.

Mavnas wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)

That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.

Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?

Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.

But some armies don't really have good options not to drop lots of small units. Especially now that all units can split fire, kill points are just dumb.

And some don't have a lot of options to cover 6 objectives. It isn't optimal for anyone, but you would most likely have to rewrite the mission rules so that certain objective-based missions don't favour MSU armies and KP-based missions don't favour armies with a few large ones.

However, I'd just like to say that I fully agree with you in that it hurts us disproportionately. In fact, I think that IG is the most hurt by KP as Orkz and Tyranids can make pretty large units with 30 models while we cannot. Would I like to see combined squads back? Of course. But it's not the end of the world.

Yes eldar and tau had the nerf orks nids and guard have had a huge buff.

I think it's always going to be a problem with the kill point mechanic. It just gives some armies a straight up advantage over others. If Imperial knights were truly balanced and always did as well as any other army, they should win kill points every time as they only have 4-5 up for grabs. I'd much rather see something along the lines of scoring the points cost for each unit destroyed - even if it is a bit more mathematical...