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 Cothonian wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
For those worried that guard are OP check out this after action report

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXaqrt9UPh4

World eaters tabled AM in 2/3 turns. Why you ask? Because the guy playing world eaters normally plays AM and knew the weaknesses.

+1

Dude you need to spread this all over the forum. There is so much whining about guard it is driving me nuts.

Ya man its nuts. The Rhinorush strategy isn't a new thing. He really shows that all vehicles (not just AM ones) are now super tough and even when transports are shot loads the majority of them will get to deploy the troops inside, who then can charge directly into the squishy AMs front line. The shadow sword took out a Rhino in one turn... so what!?!? The word bearers were almost certainly still in combat by turn 2. It was clever the way he avoided charging the shadowsword until he had mopped up the rest of the softer target.

People talking about running handicapped AM lists so others can have a chance is nuts. If they wanted a challenge just hand the other guy first go and explain the guards weakness. (over reliance on special characters, gak in cc and superheavies are a lot of points in one place so either destroy or avoid)

Agreed, vehicles are tough as nails now, esp transports like Rhinos where the controlling player doesn't give a crap about how beat up they get, as long as they get across the board.

I tried out Pask with 2x LR Executioners and they're a fantastic distraction carnifex. They soaked up 3 turns of shooting and only Pask died, I actually killed the other King Plasma myself with a last ditch full strength volley at a flyer (which I didn't even need to do)

If you are considering taking a Vanquisher just pay a few more points and take an Annihilator instead. It does the job way better.

Doctoralex wrote:
Im trying a Tank commander Vanquisher and a regular Vanquisher russ vs Eldar tonight. Lets see if it can prove the math-hammering wrong!

The Vanquisher is actually interesting from a mathematical perspective. You have a very large of doing nothing not all because its only one shot (so outright 33-50% chance of missing, and then 33-50% chance of nothing wounding on the hits), but when it actually wounds, it'll probably deal 4+ damage. The same argument goes for all of the 1-shot weapons, including the volcano cannon. If luck smiles on you, you'll hurt what you're firing at, but you'll usually do nothing.

Thing about Vanquisher now is that its mathematically impossible for the gun itself to actually kill a tank, and its incredibly unlikely even when taking the other weapons into account. Add to that the fact that the only way to get a vanquisher cannon is by getting the tank, and you'll probably want a hull lascannon, so in the end, you're paying 177 points for something that's no more exciting than two lascannons. Want to add multi-melta sponsons? 40 points extra. I would much rather have 9 HWT with lascannons, or use my heavy artillery which can do both anti-armour and anti-infantry duties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
If you are considering taking a Vanquisher just pay a few more points and take an Annihilator instead. It does the job way better.

Yes, this is how you should do it. You pay ~10% more points (192 vs 177) but you gain almost 50% more firepower without sponsons. A vanquisher cannon is nothing more than a different-looking lascannon right now. The only bad part is that you can't use tank commanders with them, but the Annihilator is actually better than a TC Vanquisher.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
If you are considering taking a Vanquisher just pay a few more points and take an Annihilator instead. It does the job way better.

FORGEWORLD MAKES ME GO REEEEEE!

*ahem* I mean, its a friendly game and I asked my friend what kind of list he wants in terms of WAAC-ness between 1 and 5. He said 3, thus I'm going to try a Vanquisher.

Doctoralex wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
If you are considering taking a Vanquisher just pay a few more points and take an Annihilator instead. It does the job way better.

FORGEWORLD MAKES ME GO REEEEEE!

*ahem* I mean, its a friendly game and I asked my friend what kind of list he wants in terms of WAAC-ness between 1 and 5. He said 3, thus I'm going to try a Vanquisher.

A Vanquisher is literally one of the least competitive turret options, with the Exterminator maybe being worse. So I guess it works?

But in all honesty, I don't think any of the Leman Russ options are especially competitive. Some of the Pask-options might be there, but in general, they range from bad to decent.

Pask isn't half bad in a Vanquisher with Hull Lascannon and Multimelta Sponsons. I've only fielded him once with that setup in 8th but he did pretty well. It's a very dangerous 24" bubble for enemy vehicles and monsters, since he can theoretically deal 24 wounds to anything within it.

With that said, that's probably the only way I'd field a Vanquisher at the moment. With BS4+ they're terrible.

In my first game I noticed that I kind of walled up my LR Executioners and they suffered from their fairly short range. They were really tough though so I think I might try to use them in more of a close support/blitz formation next time.

Thinking of this:

Pask
Punisher
LC and MM sponsons

LR Punisher
Hull HF
2x HF sponsons


LR Punisher
Hull HF
2x HF sponsons

Just run them right up the field in close support of my Chimeras and Hellhounds to sweep objectives and provide a juicy target to keep fire off of the real killers (Manticores, Hydras and Bassys)

That's actually pretty decent. 3 heavy flamers is scary as heck. Punisher cannons are amazingly good in my experience.

Most of the time youre shooting troops that are coming towards you.

8/10. Would advise.

I want to try that out so bad! Unfortunately most of my sponson weapons are glued in... (a mix of having gotten the tanks second-hand, and having put the new ones together before becoming well-versed in the hobby.)

Ok I'd really appreciate some help with this.

In this scenario I have my 20+ conscript in a flat line, base to base.

An enemy declares a frontal charge, I overwatch, the charge role is a success and the enemy has at least one model within 1" of my line. This enemy unit is chosen to fight first. All models are able to pile in 3" provided they end up closer to the nearest enemy (in this case my conscripts)

My question is, are the enemy models able to "jump" my wall of models (and invariably their own "already in combat models" and therefore be on the other (back) side of my line of conscripts or do they have to move 3" around the edge of my existing wall/line of models?

Depending on the answer I assume it would be the same of the consolidation move.

If the answer is no and they can't "jump" over my wall of models which are in base to base contact would the enemy be able to "slip through" gaps between my wall of models, <1", >1" or = 2" (assuming for ease that the base of the enemy model =1"?

This question has been bugging me so any guidance based on experience or even better someone from GW making it clear would be sweet!

I believe that they can go through gaps, but they'd have to be at least 3". They cannot go through your models as far as I know. Things with FLY might be able to though, because I wouldn't put anything past them.

 daedalus wrote:
I believe that they can go through gaps, but they'd have to be at least 3". They cannot go through your models as far as I know. Things with FLY might be able to though, because I wouldn't put anything past them.

When you say they can go through gaps but they'd have to be at least 3" you're talking about between units right? If the unit of conscripts remain in coherencey then the gaps wouldn't be >2" so does that mean the enemy couldn't go through?

Yeah, right. You have to get in 1" of another mini to be able to fight. But I don't think you can walk out of 1" of a mini if you're already engaged, unless you're falling back.

I might be wrong about that. Don't have a rulebook with me right now.

CaptainO wrote:
Ok I'd really appreciate some help with this.

In this scenario I have my 20+ conscript in a flat line, base to base.

An enemy declares a frontal charge, I overwatch, the charge role is a success and the enemy has at least one model within 1" of my line. This enemy unit is chosen to fight first. All models are able to pile in 3" provided they end up closer to the nearest enemy (in this case my conscripts)

My question is, are the enemy models able to "jump" my wall of models (and invariably their own "already in combat models" and therefore be on the other (back) side of my line of conscripts or do they have to move 3" around the edge of my existing wall/line of models?

Depending on the answer I assume it would be the same of the consolidation move.

If the answer is no and they can't "jump" over my wall of models which are in base to base contact would the enemy be able to "slip through" gaps between my wall of models, <1", >1" or = 2" (assuming for ease that the base of the enemy model =1"?

This question has been bugging me so any guidance based on experience or even better someone from GW making it clear would be sweet!

They can jump your guys in the movement phase only if they have the fly keyword. That is, if they are jump infantry, jetbikes, crisis suits etc. In the charge phase they can shoot through gaps in the line if the gaps are at least 25 mm in width (assuming 25 mm bases). Only one model has to end in CC with the charged unit, the rest of the models can go anywhere upto their full charge roll as long as they don't engage units that they did not declare charge on. In principle you can do the same with the pile in move, but you need to end the move closer to the closest enemy model, which really puts a very low limit on any practical backfield penetration. But a screen with more than 25 mm base-to-base model spacing is not a screen. You can charge right through it.

As an ork player I have on two occasions charged right through a sloppy screen, and in both cases it won me the game. What happened in one of the games was that a couple of my charging boys engaged the conscript screen (that had already been charged with a trukk to eat overwatch), the rest of the boyz used the rest of their charge move to move just short of an inch away from the stuff behind the screen. In the ensuing pile-in move a leman russ, three weapons teams and one of those half-track thingys were engaged without getting to fire overwatch. And because of the way the trukk and boyz bracketed his lines, and how his russ was placed up against some terrain he could not fall back with either unit. Regards

Now that I've gotten a chance to look at my rulebook, I think I was mistaken and the above is right.

Something else they have to do is declare whatever they're trying to sneak past your screen to get to as a target of the charge, which entitles it to fire overwatch.

 daedalus wrote:
Something else they have to do is declare whatever they're trying to sneak past your screen to get to as a target of the charge, which entitles it to fire overwatch.

Only if the attacker wants to attack the target in his own fight phase. But often your main concern, as an attacker, is to engage whatever is behind the screen, so it will stop shooting for a turn. And for that to happen you do not need to declare a charge, as you can typically engage it by piling in to it, and thus not declaring a charge and not being hit by overwatch. In certain cases you can even use the consolidate move to wrap around the tank so it cannot fall back, or pin it against terrain or other units. The best counter-tactic to this is spacing between screen and core, and spacing between individual units behind the screen. And of course keeping the screen tight.

Also, if you are moving forward with both screen and army, it might be necessary to have some kind of screen at the back, or you might be hit by units that can charge out of deepstrike. A ninety point squad of kommandoes has more than a 50% chance of making a nine inch charge (with rerolling), and can easily charge one defending unit while piling into a couple more, typically only declaring a charge on units that has weak overwatch. They probably wont kill much, but they can be mightily annoying.

Back to the topic of Russes, I'm going to run 3 LR Annihilators with Lascannons and MM sponsons buffed by Harker in a Brigade Detachment. I think this is actually where the non Pask/non TC Russ can be OK, in a Brigade filling out a HS slot. They aren't that expensive compared to a HQ options and if you take them to replace the Basilisks you would probably take otherwise it's kind of like subtracting the cost of the Basilisk from the cost of your Russ. These will be screened by 50 infantry inside 5 dual HF chimeras with Straken and a Priest riding along.

9 Lascannons and 6MMs re-rolling 1s is death to anything within 24" but I admit I am somewhat torn because for the price of these 3 Russes I could get about 5-6 T7 vehicles. I think though the T8 of the Russ combined with the ability to pop out of a concealed position and shoot the turret at full BS (if I go turn 2) should be worth it. Thoughts?

pismakron wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Something else they have to do is declare whatever they're trying to sneak past your screen to get to as a target of the charge, which entitles it to fire overwatch.

Only if the attacker wants to attack the target in his own fight phase. But often your main concern, as an attacker, is to engage whatever is behind the screen, so it will stop shooting for a turn. And for that to happen you do not need to declare a charge, as you can typically engage it by piling in to it, and thus not declaring a charge and not being hit by overwatch. In certain cases you can even use the consolidate move to wrap around the tank so it cannot fall back, or pin it against terrain or other units. The best counter-tactic to this is spacing between screen and core, and spacing between individual units behind the screen. And of course keeping the screen tight.

Also, if you are moving forward with both screen and army, it might be necessary to have some kind of screen at the back, or you might be hit by units that can charge out of deepstrike. A ninety point squad of kommandoes has more than a 50% chance of making a nine inch charge (with rerolling), and can easily charge one defending unit while piling into a couple more, typically only declaring a charge on units that has weak overwatch. They probably wont kill much, but they can be mightily annoying.

Assuming you can get them closer to the desired unit to pile in against during the charge move, yeah, that's right.

pismakron wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Ok I'd really appreciate some help with this.

In this scenario I have my 20+ conscript in a flat line, base to base.

An enemy declares a frontal charge, I overwatch, the charge role is a success and the enemy has at least one model within 1" of my line. This enemy unit is chosen to fight first. All models are able to pile in 3" provided they end up closer to the nearest enemy (in this case my conscripts)

My question is, are the enemy models able to "jump" my wall of models (and invariably their own "already in combat models" and therefore be on the other (back) side of my line of conscripts or do they have to move 3" around the edge of my existing wall/line of models?

Depending on the answer I assume it would be the same of the consolidation move.

If the answer is no and they can't "jump" over my wall of models which are in base to base contact would the enemy be able to "slip through" gaps between my wall of models, <1", >1" or = 2" (assuming for ease that the base of the enemy model =1"?

This question has been bugging me so any guidance based on experience or even better someone from GW making it clear would be sweet!

They can jump your guys in the movement phase only if they have the fly keyword. That is, if they are jump infantry, jetbikes, crisis suits etc. In the charge phase they can shoot through gaps in the line if the gaps are at least 25 mm in width (assuming 25 mm bases). Only one model has to end in CC with the charged unit, the rest of the models can go anywhere upto their full charge roll as long as they don't engage units that they did not declare charge on. In principle you can do the same with the pile in move, but you need to end the move closer to the closest enemy model, which really puts a very low limit on any practical backfield penetration. But a screen with more than 25 mm base-to-base model spacing is not a screen. You can charge right through it.

As an ork player I have on two occasions charged right through a sloppy screen, and in both cases it won me the game. What happened in one of the games was that a couple of my charging boys engaged the conscript screen (that had already been charged with a trukk to eat overwatch), the rest of the boyz used the rest of their charge move to move just short of an inch away from the stuff behind the screen. In the ensuing pile-in move a leman russ, three weapons teams and one of those half-track thingys were engaged without getting to fire overwatch. And because of the way the trukk and boyz bracketed his lines, and how his russ was placed up against some terrain he could not fall back with either unit. Regards

Thanks for the explanation man, very much appreciated. With so many models in an AM army its going to be tricky to have enough of a space between a conscript screen and the second line while also giving enough space in your back lines for your tanks and artillery to maneuver in the event they are charged. I can see the tactic of surrounding and trapping vehicles being used a lot against AM players.

"Oh no my LR is stuck in cc"

"I'll just use my cc experts to clear them off.... oh right "

When your LR gets into CC you back off and shoot the crap out of what was assaulting it. I like the new mechanic overall, the trick is to not put all your shooting eggs in one basket.

Sure, if your line didn't get multiassaulted.

Typically, at least for me, it's difficult to really spread things out in the deployment zone by the time assault happens. Particularly when I want my already lackluster tanks to fire at full BS for at least the first turn.

Granted, that depends heavily on what the opponent is, and that's probably my fault for not using conscripts.

 More Dakka wrote:
When your LR gets into CC you back off and shoot the crap out of what was assaulting it. I like the new mechanic overall, the trick is to not put all your shooting eggs in one basket.

LR will only be able to "back off" if they can move without going through terrain and enemy units. Also the LR wouldn't be able to shoot the turn it backed off. The new tactic will involve the enemy pilling in "around" the LR, trapping it, which means the enemy unit can't get the crap shot out of it next turn.

AM deployment areas are normally pretty packed with 100+ models especially if you are using a conscript screen. Once the enemy is back there tearing gak up, successfully backing up could require a lot of movement of several vehicles further reducing AM shooting ability (-1 to hit). Deep strike denial through the use of the 9" distance rule could mean MSU or characters will be used to prevent the enemy getting behind your lines at least until they've slogged through the conscript screen.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:
Sure, if your line didn't get multiassaulted.

Typically, at least for me, it's difficult to really spread things out in the deployment zone by the time assault happens. Particularly when I want my already lackluster tanks to fire at full BS for at least the first turn.

Agreed

I think that the static parking lot or gunline just doesn't work anymore and really hasn't since 5th. IG have to actually maneuver to get objectives in most missions even if playing Eternal War.

About to buy 3 heavy artillery carriages. Should I buy Earthshakers or Medusas?

Going to buy the other 3 by christmas in any case, so this is mostly about what you think would be most cool. Don't really care about gameplay differences between them.

Either is fine, you can easily convert both back and forth between the weapon styles.

I like the Medusa because the sculpt isn't pushing 30 years old, you can easily source a tube to fit on the barrel to extend it to a Basilisk profile.

World eaters counter AM, Ynarri d scythe foot spam counters world eaters, AM counters d scythes foot spam

I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.

I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.

 GreaterGood? wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I think high T spam list in general counter AM. All our high strength weaponry is easy to remove, and/or is very inaccurate. It's very easy to overwhelm AMs ability to deal with enemy armor. Yes we can have 14 cannons but they will not survive turn 1 and of any that do only 50% will actually hit the target.

I've not even come close to losing against toughness spam. Melta, and or Plasma scions drop in and kill everything, with only about 500 points dedicated to it, I'm dropping in 21 plasma guns with orders, and overcharging killing everything.

I mean great.. approx 13-15 wounding hits, 30 wounds dealt. Assuming no cover and some orders. That will nuke two tanks, two MC's.

So why a tiny bit hyperbolic, it will put out a very efficient amount of damage.

I wonder if people would shy away from a first turn alpha strike if everything had a native 4+++. That would simply allow for an epic beta strike yet while allowing the opposing player more board control vs. a smaller force.