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gungo wrote:
Honestly I'm hoping gw nerfs plasmagun/pistol across the board for all armies so it's at best str6 and str7 overcharged.
It's not just the fact plasma is overpowered, but it completely throws off balance with all special weapons with grenade launchers and melta guns being worse in most situations.
And worst still most vehicles in 40k 8th are not as durable as they should be.
There is way to much easily accessible and cheap str8 multi damage weapons that make a mockery of t8 3+ save ~15 wound units....
if plasma guns get nerfed as I hope above it's almost garaunteed that leman russes and similar vehicles would be much much better. At str 7 a plasma gun can still do decent damage but it won't be nearly as bad as it currently is.
If you just raise plasma to 15ppm people will still spam they are just that good with deep strike at alpha striking. And it does very little to solve the bigger problem caused by plasmaguns.
With plasma nerfed to str 7 armies will need to rely on krak missiles, lascannons, melta wpns, melee, or high rate of fire, etc all of which are either vastly more expensive with less shots or have much shorter range to take down t8.

I really hope that doesn't happen. Frankly, I like that IG weapons are actually relevant again - as opposed to being worthless, overpriced garbage, compared with the D-weapons, Grav and such that dominated the battlefield in 7th.

I would argue that the issue lies not with plasma (save for it being a bit too cheap), but with the other special weapons.
- Grenade Launchers have been garbage for at the past 3 editions, and 8th has done nothing whatsoever to change that.
- Flamers went up in price (for some baffling reason) and, whilst decent, don't really offer much that the squad couldn't already achieve with lasguns. What's more, the changes to transports make them a less attractive option on the mechanised front and the new Deep Strike rule means you'll never land in flamer range.
- Meltas have a similar problem Re. Deep Striking (albeit not quite as bad), as well as the issue of transports shooting up in cost. However, I would argue that the greatest threat to meltas is not plasma but Lascannons. Why take a melta, which needs to get within 6" of its target to fire at full effect, when you could have a Lascannon that's almost as good from 48" away?

In effect, I don't want this to turn into "Too many people are using plasma because they've realised that it's the only special weapon that's actually worth a damn and which fits in with the new rules. So let's nerf plasma to oblivion and force IG players to choose between 4 special weapons, all of them bad. That'll fix things."

I really miss old deepstrike. I'm sure everyone's had at least one of those "parallax error" arguments about the scatter die, but man, I was a freaking wizard with the 5th edition melta Stormtroopers.

Any tried the Maraduer Destroyer yet? How did it fair.

Im looking to run it in my IG/Elysian list. Paired up with an officer of the fleet. That's a whole lot of hurt raining down.

8 S8 AP-2 2D6 dmg (Pick highest)
12 S7 AP-1 2D
12 S6 AP-1 1D
6 S5 AP-1 1D.

Oh and heavy bombs.

And since it doesn't take up a flier slot even if its all you have in the air you don't auto lose (Ref: New FAQ).

Plus it looks Bad friggen ass.


I tried the shadowsword, and the preator assault launcher. Both really cool. But I am finished with variable shots. 1D6 shots? I'd always seem to roll a 1 or a 2.

Also. Anybody use the Cyclops?? 40pts. Moves 10 inches. Auto hits everything within 1D6.

Awesome counter charge unit. And I like not having to roll to hit.

After a lot of research (math, stats, internet) and a few games:

Our army is very good. The guard was lame for several years now and its finally getting some glory. It was about time!

However, our units are VERY unbalanced. Its clear things are not even remotely close to the "all is well balanced" GW was saying. Following units I compare from a competitive point of view. In semi or friendly, everything is usable.


Conscripts are great unit! They can hold the line, which is great, but have a very small firepower. I dont see the reason to nerf this unit, its hardly spammable to win (like many other units from all armies) and are just a buffer, which is exactly its role fluffwise. With the new marine (and later possibly chaos) rule of objective secured, they will be much worse for a objective grap, which is one of their best use now.

Tauroxes are OP. Can not say anything more about a unit, which is so cheap, yet with so great firepower AND standing power.

Scions...I am not sure about them. Scion Command squads are brutal,possibly OP. However, only with plasma guns (other special weapons are meh, only melta is quite ok). However, if your opponent is tricky enough, he can lower your deepstrike results very well. And after the enemy space marines will use their auspex stratagem...well...its a unit of scion command squad down for sure before it even fires.

Scion infantry. Great, but not OP. This guys are very well balanced. I would only wish those hot-shots to be one inch more in range, because right now, the guys with hot shots are only ablative wounds for special weapons guys...

Artillery - good, all of them. Nice balance.

Leman Russes - impotent, totally. Go spend your points on something else. Only Pask have a decent amount of damage efficiency, but he is always picked first by the enemy, so he will not fire very often...

Chimeras - they should be cheap transports, but they are too bad for that purpose (horrribly overcosted). Because of that fact, the units like SWS, Command squads or veterans are poorly usable and I will not mention them any more..

Valkyries - better than chimeras thanks to grav chute rule. Still too expensive to be really usable, but otherwise ok, they have nice special rule.

Infantry squads and HWTs...they are ok, but outshined by other good choices. Since HWTs are very squishy, inaccurate and cheap, a player needs to use a lot of them to do something...but then you have quite a problem with positioning them effectively (LOS is quite a bitch ). Thats their biggest problem, which, unfortunately, has no solution known to me (except not using anything than mortars ).

Commanders - orders are great for massed conscripts and bad for everything else. If you calculate how much points you are paying for that slight firepower boost, you will discover its much more efficient to buy another gun/body, then to invest in commander. If only infantry squads could have 20 men and two HWTs...would make quite a difference withnout being too strong.

Commissars - also good only for conscripts. Everything else dies from the shooting, not the morale. Again, why no 20-man infantry squad.....

Sentinels, RR, ratlings, ogryns, hellhounds I dont know for sure. Ratlings are nice snipers, otherwise i dont use that units and they are not looking good math wise.

Just my two cents...well, yeah, i know, its several bucks...sorry for the wall of text, guys

Don't agree with your analysis of Russes or Chimeras

They're both very tough. 12" move on Chimeras is big for objective grabs alone.

Chimeras are some of the best transports in the game. Nice and low down. Good movement. Pretty good T.

Still debating double HF, they're under 100 with ML-HB but like almost 110 with 2x HF and then you may as well get a Hellhound

I guess if transporting infantry was the real name of the game that'd be my go-to.

dual heavy flamers is nice to have. Roll up right down the middle. If the enemy wants to lascannon it, great. It'll eat fire. If they want to charge even better.

Id try to find the points to make it happen.

Melta is underpowered and could do with upgrading maybe +1 dam would make it a more visbe alternative plasma

Don't make tanks any stronger yes non pask isn't brilliant but not everything needs to be top of the power curve.

Grenade launchers suffer from competing design space at the bottom end we have Las guns bolt guns flamers and mortars all trying to do the same thing

The solution would be to make grenade launchers do something completely different change grenade launcher damage to 1 mortal wound/5 models in the target unit rounded up for hoping large unit's.

Or make them ap1 mortars with an 18" range might give them a purpose

 rhinoceraids wrote:
Chimeras are some of the best transports in the game. Nice and low down. Good movement. Pretty good T.

Not for those points. Too expensive. I told you, guys, this is from a competitive point of view. You would not use something which costs about 100 points without decent firepower just for transport. Tournament wise its not a good unit. Not effective. Rhinos are slightly better and they are still not good for competitive tournaments.

Neither is Leman Russ (try to calculate his cost and firepower/durability with some of the good units in our army). Hes laughable.

It's not just what they do on the table though, it's how they interact with other elements of the army.

A Chimera is a bully of a transport, it can basically point at something head to it and make it there before it dies. A Taurox targeted by anything goes down quick by comparison.

Leman Russ tanks are not the real killers in the army, they're there to soak up anti-tank fire, get in the way of assault units and give your artillery breathing room to do the heavy lifting.

I've used Leman Russes and chimera's both in competitive scenes.

I ran two russes in my local tournament and went undefeated. The only way one was killed was with a necron pylon.

I tried out the triple HF on a Punisher and it did so-so the HF's were great the Punisher cannon is terrible against 3+ or better armor, but that also costs 200 points, for 100 pts a pair of HFs on a Chimera is similar damage output and can scoot a squad out to the other end of the table for objectives.

It's also very reactive to deepstrike.

 MinscS2 wrote:
As someone who plays in a semi-competitive/casual environment, I'd say that list is quite tryhard.

W-hat? He's gimping Pask with a Vanquisher cannon, has 40 infantry with no Commissars to prevent runners as the only thing preventing his tanks from getting stunlocked by assault armies, and only took one mortar hws. And you STILL think that's tryhard? Yeah, he has a lot of arty, but 2-3 rhinos + deepstrikers are going to impact his frontline by turn 1/2, shred a hole in the infantry line, and charge the tanks/arty turn 3.

Regarding Chimeras.

Chimeras belong to a rather small group of tanks currently; The heavily armored transport which also tots heavy weaponry-family
Some other units which belong to this "family" is the Razorback and the Waveserpent.

Out of these 3, I'd say that the Chimera is by far the worst off points/performance wise.

It wants to move, it's a transport. It's also BS4+, which means that if it does what it's intended to do (move) it's shooting is pretty lackluster, hitting on 5+ or worse.
The Razorback and Waveserpent don't have this problem due to BS3+.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also carry much better weapons, like Assault Cannons, Lascannons, Brightlances, etc.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also have the potential for a much deadlier cargo due to the nature of the army it belongs to (Space Marines and Eldar respectively.)
And yes, the Waveserpent costs noticeably more than the Chimer and Razorback, but it's also *much* more resilient.

I (used to) love the Chimera, I own 3 and I usually fielded at least one, but often all three in 6th and 7th Ed.
IG is by far the army I've played with the most in 8th, but I haven't fielded a Chimera a single time so far. I just don't know what I'd do with it.
It's no longer a bunker for my commanders. Not that it's needed anymore due to character's being almost immune to being singled out, but it couldn't even if it wanted to anymore.
It's no longer a bunker for the occupants to shoot out of safely like it used to be.
As a immobile dakka-tank it's lackluster due to it's poor weapons/cost-ratio. 2 BS4+ HB's at 91 ppm? No Tanks (pun intended.)
As a mobile harass-tank it's lackluster either due to it's poor Ballistic Skill (5+, yay!) or because it with Dual Flamers simply becomes a bad Hellhound.

I'm genuinely at a loss at what to do with my Chimeras at the moment. :/

RogueApiary wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
As someone who plays in a semi-competitive/casual environment, I'd say that list is quite tryhard.

W-hat? He's gimping Pask with a Vanquisher cannon, has 40 infantry with no Commissars to prevent runners as the only thing preventing his tanks from getting stunlocked by assault armies, and only took one mortar hws. And you STILL think that's tryhard?

Is his list tryhard? No.
Is his list tryhard for someone who tries to be casual? Yes, I genuinely think that.

He has more artillery in 1250 pts than I have in 2000 pts.
Pask isn't actually bad in a Vanquisher, it's probably the best way to field a Vanquisher. As a matter of fact, in a casual 1250 pts list, why even bring Pask in the first place??
40 Infantry don't become a bad choice just because there's no commissar. Infantry is solid regardless.

Yeah, he has a lot of arty, but 2-3 rhinos + deepstrikers are going to impact his frontline by turn 1/2, shred a hole in the infantry line, and charge the tanks/arty turn 3.

You assume a whole lot here.
I've likewise played 2000 pts vs Tyranids quite afew times in 8th, (without Conscripts!) and I never felt that I became overrun on turn 3.
In fact, it was mostly the other way around, and my opponent felt like he was getting shot of the table in turn 3, and I guess most people who play casual lists againt that IG-list will feel the same.
His list isn't WAAC, but it's not casual either - it's just solid.

This may be meant as a wider question in regards to the game rules as a whole, but none the less here goes...

Air units (in my case Valkyries) and weapon accuracy. As it stands anything that moves and shoots with a heavy weapon suffers a -1 to BS, this would mean that unless I go into hover, my Valkyries are stuck firing at 5+. Furthermore, if I engage an enemy air unit with my Valkyrie, I'm now firing at 6+. Is there a rule that I'm missing here, or are aircraft just really inaccurate when it comes to firing?

Also while I'm here: Hellstrike Missiles. I was initially excited to see that they were now unlimited ammo, but after using them (and realizing I could only fire one at a time...) they don't seem super useful, as their chances of hitting compared to the missile pods are not great. Thoughts?

Ultimate casual list: Creed, Kell, fill the rest of the points with multilaser Sentinels and multilaser Chimeras.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Spoiler:

Regarding Chimeras.

Chimeras belong to a rather small group of tanks currently; The heavily armored transport which also tots heavy weaponry-family
Some other units which belong to this "family" is the Razorback and the Waveserpent.

Out of these 3, I'd say that the Chimera is by far the worst off points/performance wise.

It wants to move, it's a transport. It's also BS4+, which means that if it does what it's intended to do (move) it's shooting is pretty lackluster, hitting on 5+ or worse.
The Razorback and Waveserpent don't have this problem due to BS3+.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also carry much better weapons, like Assault Cannons, Lascannons, Brightlances, etc.
The Razorback and Waveserpent also have the potential for a much deadlier cargo due to the nature of the army it belongs to (Space Marines and Eldar respectively.)
And yes, the Waveserpent costs noticeably more than the Chimer and Razorback, but it's also *much* more resilient.

I (used to) love the Chimera, I own 3 and I usually fielded at least one, but often all three in 6th and 7th Ed.
IG is by far the army I've played with the most in 8th, but I haven't fielded a Chimera a single time so far. I just don't know what I'd do with it.
It's no longer a bunker for my commanders. Not that it's needed anymore due to character's being almost immune to being singled out, but it couldn't even if it wanted to anymore.
It's no longer a bunker for the occupants to shoot out of safely like it used to be.
As a immobile dakka-tank it's lackluster due to it's poor weapons/cost-ratio. 2 BS4+ HB's at 91 ppm? No Tanks (pun intended.)
As a mobile harass-tank it's lackluster either due to it's poor Ballistic Skill (5+, yay!) or because it with Dual Flamers simply becomes a bad Hellhound.

I'm genuinely at a loss at what to do with my Chimeras at the moment. :/

RogueApiary wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
As someone who plays in a semi-competitive/casual environment, I'd say that list is quite tryhard.

W-hat? He's gimping Pask with a Vanquisher cannon, has 40 infantry with no Commissars to prevent runners as the only thing preventing his tanks from getting stunlocked by assault armies, and only took one mortar hws. And you STILL think that's tryhard?

Is his list tryhard? No.
Is his list tryhard for someone who tries to be casual? Yes, I genuinely think that.

He has more artillery in 1250 pts than I have in 2000 pts.
Pask isn't actually bad in a Vanquisher, it's probably the best way to field a Vanquisher. As a matter of fact, in a casual 1250 pts list, why even bring Pask in the first place??
40 Infantry don't become a bad choice just because there's no commissar. Infantry is solid regardless.

Yeah, he has a lot of arty, but 2-3 rhinos + deepstrikers are going to impact his frontline by turn 1/2, shred a hole in the infantry line, and charge the tanks/arty turn 3.

You assume a whole lot here.
I've likewise played 2000 pts vs Tyranids quite afew times in 8th, (without Conscripts!) and I never felt that I became overrun on turn 3.
In fact, it was mostly the other way around, and my opponent felt like he was getting shot of the table in turn 3, and I guess most people who play casual lists againt that IG-list will feel the same.
His list isn't WAAC, but it's not casual either - it's just solid.

Chimera looks like an assault transport to me, Minsc. Stick Ogryns in it, drive up to someone's face, flame them, shoot them, then get out and assault. If your chimera is still alive, ram it into them to eat overwatch. The Chimera has the staying power to survive doing that, a Taurox doesn't. The flamers work perfect with that plan. And the Ogryns can even shoot the silly looking lasgun array on the way up. 6 rapid fire shots isn't bad. I'm going to buy one and run it with two heavy flamers, stormbolter, and lasgun array, with bullgryns inside.

As to the Taurox, it would be a perfect guard truck if it wasn't for those damn autocannons. Make those optional and you'll see a lot of Tauroxes on the field I think.

I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.

They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.

They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.

Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Pask isn't actually bad in a Vanquisher, it's probably the best way to field a Vanquisher. As a matter of fact, in a casual 1250 pts list, why even bring Pask in the first place??

Using Pask is the only way to make a Vanquisher even remotely useful. It's still probably the worst tank to use Pask in, but if you'e dead set on using a Vanquisher (like me, I just love the model), then use it with Pask.
I don't see it as tryhard at all, even for a casual list.

His list isn't WAAC, but it's not casual either - it's just solid.

Ive changed Pask to a regular tank commander vanquisher and a normal LR vanquisher. Ive also replaced ome of the Basilisks with a Hydra. Hopefully that will tone down the WAAC-ness of the list a bit.

RogueApiary wrote:

Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.

Haha yeah that is definitely not a competitive way to deploy Scions in a tournament, but it is fun. We are close though to having a viable mechanized, fun, competitive list. I don't see it happening, but if you don't mind losing you can certainly have some fun with our mech options.

For instance, SWSs can only chuck 1 demo charge at a time, it's 1 use, and they'll never survive to throw a 2nd. Only meltas or super charging plasmas synergize with it. You can put 2 of those in a Chimera and have a nice little punch putting out 4 meltas and 2 demo charges. But why go through all that trouble and pay all those points when our BS is so poor and demo charges are unreliable # of shots. It's just not very efficient. If they could include heavy flamers I'd seriously consider putting 2 SWSs in a Chimera with a total of 4x flamers and 2 heavy flamers. But as it stands they're just under powered. I hope they make that change in the codex.

Two questions:

1) What do you think of 10 Scions inside a Taurox Prime, just equipped with Hellguns plus a Prime dropping for orders, for hunting infantry.
Is it "wasting" the 4 special weapon slot?

2) Since the non commander Leman Russes have pretty weak damage output I am planing to add Pask.
Is it worth the extra points for +2BS if you don't plan to bring other tanks to oder?

 lash92 wrote:
Two questions:

1) What do you think of 10 Scions inside a Taurox Prime, just equipped with Hellguns plus a Prime dropping for orders, for hunting infantry.
Is it "wasting" the 4 special weapon slot?

2) Since the non commander Leman Russes have pretty weak damage output I am planing to add Pask.
Is it worth the extra points for +2BS if you don't plan to bring other tanks to oder?

1) Yes. The special weapons should improve your ability to hunt infantry, so why wouldn't you give them some? It's also not the best way to run them, but in principle, they should have some special weapons at least.

2) Yes. You gain 66% more offensive power for a 34% increase in base cost. Percentages are subject to change depending on loadout (flamers don't benefit at all, and adding weapon reduces the relative increase in points).

 Aenarian wrote:


1) Yes. The special weapons should improve your ability to hunt infantry, so why wouldn't you give them some? It's also not the best way to run them, but in principle, they should have some special weapons at least.

2) Yes. You gain 66% more offensive power for a 34% increase in base cost.

1) Because more special weapon means less guys taking advantage of FRFSRF which would make the Prime not so useful anymore.

2) What are the numbers for a regular Tank Commander?

 lash92 wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:


1) Yes. The special weapons should improve your ability to hunt infantry, so why wouldn't you give them some? It's also not the best way to run them, but in principle, they should have some special weapons at least.

2) Yes. You gain 66% more offensive power for a 34% increase in base cost.

1) Because more special weapon means less guys taking advantage of FRFSRF which would make the Prime not so useful anymore.

2) What are the numbers for a regular Tank Commander?

True, but I would still take the special weapons for redundancy. You never know what you might have to kill with it. At least two of them.

At worst, 27% cost increase for a 33% power increase. Pask is always better unless you want a flame tank.

 Aenarian wrote:


At worst, 27% cost increase for a 33% power increase. Pask is always better unless you want a flame tank.

Sure the +10 points for +1BS and an extra order is a no-brainer.
But I was asking because I was considering adding some Tank Commanders additional to Pask.

Thanks for the help!

Do LR block LoS to other LR. Could you "hide" Pask behind two LR for turn 1 at least (I'm assuming I'm going second) ?

CaptainO wrote:
Do LR block LoS to other LR. Could you "hide" Pask behind two LR for turn 1 at least (I'm assuming I'm going second) ?

I mean theoretically yeah, but they could probably draw a model to hull line from somewhere. Fliers don't/won't care about that though, as they slide right on past your perimeter, kill Pask and probably something else important.