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Razerous wrote:
I know this may seem like an odd question;

How much better is the Hydra Vs. a Wyvern at taking down a flyer (/vehicle). Because I'm looking at cost/benefits, the loss of the additional infantry slaying firepower vs. the AA / AV

Well it's apples and pears really. The Wyvern is anti-(light) infantry and the Hydra is, perhaps not necessarily anti-flyer but simply a powerful weapons platform vs anything with the Fly keyword.

First of, there is a pretty big point difference; the Wyvern's 93 to the Hydra's 123.

As for the actual damage on a flyer:

Let's say a flyer has T7 and a 3+ save.

The Wyvern will do on average 0.83 wounds, the Hydra 2 wounds.

And keep in mind that the Wyvern has 4D6 shots, meaning there is another element of randomness compared to the Hydra's solid 8 shots.

Doctoralex wrote:
The Wyvern will do on average 0.83 wounds, the Hydra 2 wounds.

So is that 1 dmg of wound vs 2x2 = 4 damage of wounds? (The hydra is @ D2).

And even factoring in the re-roll to wound? Cheers, I'm at work so my math-fu is limited.

 Aenarian wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

Grenade Launchers are actually worth their points now, and are better than plasma against infantry hordes.

I'm curious, but in what way do you actually have a lot of problems versus infantry hordes? A FRFSRF lasgun is better than a grenade launcher within 12" and you have heaps of those. At 24", you go from 9 lasguns to 11.5 (using averages), at 12" you go from 18 to 19,5. Hell, if you're using FRFSRF you go from 36 to 35,5 when picking a GL. You could also get mortar teams for the same cost, and they are strictly superior to the frag grenade if you're desperate for anti-horde weapons, while plasma gun or meltagun will let you deal with enemies you can't normally hurt well, while only being a little worse than the grenade launcher in the worst case scenario.

I don't doubt that a grenade launcher could be worth its points in a very specific scenario, namely when I want to purely deal with hordes T3 hordes and don't expect to face anything else, or very light vehicles for the krak grenades. But I have never come across a scenario where this small increase against these kinds of targets ever mattered enough to take the opportunity cost of not taking a meltagun or plasma gun for the vehicles or heavy infantry I expect to face.

True, but can a lasgun be S6 AP-1 D d3(or is it d6?)? No. Neither does it have a potential for 6 S3 shots at 24". Anyway, my point is that it is better anti-horde than the flamer. The lasgun is better antihorde per point, but less versatile. It's not a must-have by any means, but it is versatile, mobile, low points, and the gun itself is more plentiful than the plasma gun (two in each infantry squad box compared to zero). I get that the plasma gun is only two points more, but how long do you honestly think that will last? When the new codex drops it will probably be around 10pts. For now it is affordable to add to an infantry squad, but at that point you are getting the least mileage possible for the plasma gun itself. Better to put your plasmas in vet squads and give them a reroll 1s buff.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kraks wound primaris marines on 3+, reduce their save and have potential to do multiple wounds per shot. One krak grenade can kill a primaris outright. For 5 points. Without overheating.

Razerous wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:
The Wyvern will do on average 0.83 wounds, the Hydra 2 wounds.

So is that 1 dmg of wound vs 2x2 = 4 damage of wounds? (The hydra is @ D2).

And even factoring in the re-roll to wound? Cheers, I'm at work so my math-fu is limited.

Nope, that's all the factors counted in. So 0.83 total wounds vs 2 total wounds.

CplPunishment wrote:


True, but can a lasgun be S6 AP-1 D d3(or is it d6?)? No. Neither does it have a potential for 6 S3 shots at 24". Anyway, my point is that it is better anti-horde than the flamer. The lasgun is better antihorde per point, but less versatile. It's not a must-have by any means, but it is versatile, mobile, low points, and the gun itself is more plentiful than the plasma gun (two in each infantry squad box compared to zero). I get that the plasma gun is only two points more, but how long do you honestly think that will last? When the new codex drops it will probably be around 10pts. For now it is affordable to add to an infantry squad, but at that point you are getting the least mileage possible for the plasma gun itself. Better to put your plasmas in vet squads and give them a reroll 1s buff.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kraks wound primaris marines on 3+, reduce their save and have potential to do multiple wounds per shot. One krak grenade can kill a primaris outright. For 5 points. Without overheating.

It's d3 damage on the krak grenade.

But can a Grenade Launcher do 2 S8 AP-3 D2 shots? No. Neither does it have a potential for 1 S3 shot at 24", as it is always at least S7 AP-3. It could kill two Primaris marines if you're lucky (and it wounds them on 2+ or 3+!), and is much more likely do to so than a krak grenade, that even the overheat chance is worth it. It also stands a good chance of killing the same number of horde units because its much more likely to wound and get through any armour, and its actually significantly better than the frag grenade when within 12" even without supercharging it.

I get your point that it's better than the flamer, but I have never seen anyone who claims that the flamer is actually good or recommend it, so being better than a bad choice does not necessarily mean that it is good. Especially as, right now, the plasma gun is a better choice and we cannot really make predictions on what might happen. The flamer might go down to 2 points or 0, the plasma gun might be reduced in price or not changing and Scions costing more as they are the prime carrier. Codex Space Marines saw basically no points increase whatsoever, even on choices that were considered incredible. The Stormraven was nerfed in other ways to prevent spamming. If the plasma gun is heavily nerfed, we could return to this discussion. But right now, even if we use the plasma gun in the worst possible situation as you said, giving it to infantry squads, it is superior to the grenade launcher. And right now is when it matters. As a sidenote, because I play Krieg, I'll probably have 7 pts plasma guns until 2019 or something when they update the army list.

But the point about you only having a limited number of plasma guns in the box is correct, and sadly just a remainder of how old the actual kit is. An updated one will likely include all of them, if that ever happens. And I stand by a previous suggestion I made, that guardsmen gets the option of a (possibly free) flamer, grenade launcher or heavy stubber in addition to the standard special weapon and heavy weapon choices.

Edit: To summarize, the grenade launcher has a very small niche. It's an anti-horde weapon slightly superior to the lasgun with its frag grenade, and anti-light vehicle/medium infantry (as it lacks the AP to really hurt heavy) with the krak option. But the frag grenade is almost always unnecessary, as it does not really fulfill its objective that well, and there are better options for the krak that does not reduce your horde-killing capability that much. A meltagun or plasma gun firing one shot deals two thirds of the damage a frag grenade does against T3 5+, the plasma gun deals more within 12", and they are both better against vehicles, monsters or heavy infantry apart from some specific situations. Right now, it's a bad option when you have superior ones. The same can be said for the flamer. I would only recommend the plasma gun or the meltagun as it stands right now, and if things change with the codex, I will change my recommendations.

How viable are our super heavy tanks?

Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:

Stormlord (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon, +1 Heavy Stubber (Pintle))
embarked: 18 (6x3) HWT - Heavy Bolter
embarked: 1 Company Commander
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)

Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.

Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .

That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.

Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).

fe40k wrote:
How viable are our super heavy tanks?

Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:

Stormlord (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon, +1 Heavy Stubber (Pintle))
embarked: 18 (6x3) HWT - Heavy Bolter
embarked: 1 Company Commander
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)

Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.

Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .

That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.

Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).

I run an entire baneblade company routinely (my thoughts are earlier in the threat).

Your list looks fine, though imo the best for-the-price superheavy is the Stormhammer.

@Aenarian

I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*

That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.

No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.

fe40k wrote:
How viable are our super heavy tanks?

Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:

Stormlord (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon, +1 Heavy Stubber (Pintle))
embarked: 18 (6x3) HWT - Heavy Bolter
embarked: 1 Company Commander
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)

Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.

Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .

That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.

Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).

Can you squeeze in an Astropath to give the storm Lord +1 save?

CplPunishment wrote:
@Aenarian

I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*

That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.

No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.

Well, that seems reasonable. I'm using a few of them because I like the idea of a grenade launcher and right now I don't have to maximize all my slots to win (like last edition, playing vs Necrons and Eldar), but I would never recommend it competitively. If it becomes more expensive, we'll see what happens.

On the topic of Superheavies:

I see far too many people paying for stuff on their super-heavies. It's more than just a weapons platform:

-You are paying for 26! wounds with T8 3+ save.
-You are paying for 9 attacks with Adamantium Tracks.
-You are paying for Steel Behemoth.

It's simply meant to get stuck in.

 Aenarian wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
@Aenarian

I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*

That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.

No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.

Well, that seems reasonable. I'm using a few of them because I like the idea of a grenade launcher and right now I don't have to maximize all my slots to win (like last edition, playing vs Necrons and Eldar), but I would never recommend it competitively. If it becomes more expensive, we'll see what happens.

I think we can agree that:
Flamers are lackluster
Grenade Launchers are fine for friendly pickup games
Plasma and Melta are optimal for competitive tournament games
And snipers? Well, at least they're cheap!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctoralex wrote:
On the topic of Superheavies:

I see far too many people paying for stuff on their super-heavies. It's more than just a weapons platform:

-You are paying for 26! wounds with T8 3+ save.
-You are paying for 9 attacks with Adamantium Tracks.
-You are paying for Steel Behemoth.

It's simply meant to get stuck in.

I share similar sentiments. In my first game of 8th my shadowsword got swarmed by genestealers. I was shocked to see it not only survive but whittle the swarm down with its tracks. Even better, my opponent was shocked to find out that it could still fire its main gun whilst engaged! They are tough AND lethal.

CplPunishment wrote:
@Aenarian

I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*

That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.

No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.

Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less? I thought GLs were ok when I first looked at them, but in practice they're just terrible. Guards units are meant to get FRSRF, and a GL gets no benefit from that. Two guardsman get 4 shots total at 24", and cost less than one guardsman with a GL. At 12", they get 8 shots.

GL is bad for normal guardsman. I think its only useable place is on rough riders, if you're using them as a harrasing flanker unit rather than charging them in. RR only get laspistols anyway, and can't take orders. So even the crappy GL is an upgrade.

But since plasma is just better anyway for only 2 more points, the GL just seems like a solution looking for a problem.

 argonak wrote:

Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less?

Because you can't always get another guardsman instead, although the PG is better unless you absolutely can't find 2 points somewhere. But having 5 points left and nowhere else to spend them would be my only scenario. Or well, I use them normally because I like the model, don't really have enough plasma guns to go around, and I don't play competitively that much.

 argonak wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
@Aenarian

I honestly can't say that your summary is wrong. The plasmagun is the obvious choice *at its current price*

That being said, I only have a finite number of plasmagun-wielding guardsmen, so I'm going to put them where they will be the most potent (on BS 3+ veterans). I have a much larger finite quantity of grenade launchers, which I plan to add to my six infantry squads if I have 30pts to play with. Why? Because Grenade Launchers are better and I don't rely on my infantry squads to do the heavy lifting anyhow. They are bubble wrap for my basilisks and area-denial buffers for enemy deep-strikers. I'm going to take them because I own them and I have had successes with them so far.

No I can't be certain that plasma will become more expensive, but we all know that for what it does on the table, it should be more expensive, and due to their new rules writing ethos, it is not unreasonable to suspect that the points cost can increase in the near future.

Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less? I thought GLs were ok when I first looked at them, but in practice they're just terrible. Guards units are meant to get FRSRF, and a GL gets no benefit from that. Two guardsman get 4 shots total at 24", and cost less than one guardsman with a GL. At 12", they get 8 shots.

GL is bad for normal guardsman. I think its only useable place is on rough riders, if you're using them as a harrasing flanker unit rather than charging them in. RR only get laspistols anyway, and can't take orders. So even the crappy GL is an upgrade.

But since plasma is just better anyway for only 2 more points, the GL just seems like a solution looking for a problem.

Your sentiments are true in general, and I like the idea of putting them on Rough Riders. If you read all of my posts, you will understand my opinion more clearly. Grenade Launchers do fine on BS4+ guardsmen in friendly pickup games, but are underpowered in competitive games. That being said, they are not something you will regret if you have 5-30 points to spare and a few stock infantry squads without special weapons. Losing the 9th lasgun in a squad will never cost you a game, and most guard players have more grenade launchers anyhow, due to the way GW does their sprues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aenarian wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Why would you ever take a grenade launcher when you can get more hits by just taking another guardsman for 1 point less?

Because you can't always get another guardsman instead, although the PG is better unless you absolutely can't find 2 points somewhere. But having 5 points left and nowhere else to spend them would be my only scenario. Or well, I use them normally because I like the model, don't really have enough plasma guns to go around, and I don't play competitively that much.

Exactly.

Honestly, If I had a random 5 points left over I'd probably spend them giving bolters to Sergeants and company commanders before I picked up a GL.

Since then I'd be picking up 5 S4 shots at 24" for those 5 points instead of 1d6 S3.

 ross-128 wrote:
Honestly, If I had a random 5 points left over I'd probably spend them giving bolters to Sergeants and company commanders before I picked up a GL.

Since then I'd be picking up 5 S4 shots at 24" for those 5 points instead of 1d6 S3.

I always take bolters where I can, when I can afford to. I agree that they come before Grenade Launcher. But as Ive said before, infantry squads don't do the heavy lifting in my force. They mostly just stand in the way.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

fe40k wrote:
How viable are our super heavy tanks?

Specifically; do you think a list of 3 super heavies at 2000 points would be durable enough? I don't think that 3 would be tough enough (considering 4 knights can be dealt with), but I'm just curious, because of the following list:

Stormlord (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon, +1 Heavy Stubber (Pintle))
embarked: 18 (6x3) HWT - Heavy Bolter
embarked: 1 Company Commander
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)
Shadowsword (+4 Twin-Heavy Bolter, +4 Lascannon)

Frankly, it started with me being curious how much dakka I could get out of a Stormlord; ended up with ~119 Heavy Bolter-ish shots, for 800 points. The other two super heavies are for anti-vehicle duty, and extra dakka.

Sure; 800/600/600 points are tied up into the three vehicles which are more vulnerable than I'd like; but, that much dakka coming from the dakka-boat that would be the Stormlord; makes the Ork in me proud .

That said... if this list has to move at all (which it will, since it needs to get in range), its firepower goes down significantly... BS4 => BS5, ouch.

Still... I'm almost tempted to drop the ~$600 to make it a silly reality. But, I doubt I could find opponents down for facing triple-super heavy outside of a tournament (at least it's not quad-heavy Baneblades XD).

Can you squeeze in an Astropath to give the storm Lord +1 save?

Good question.

The list as it stands comes out to 1998 points; if I dropped one of the [2 Twin-Heavy Bolter, 2 Lascannon] sponsons from one of the vehicles I could fit in 2 Astropaths for a flat 2000 points.

That said, only one of them could fit onto the Stormlord, increasing my total drops from 3 to 4; but, +1Save on a tank, and 1 enemy within 18" not getting cover saves is kind of big.

That +1Save would go a LONG way on a super heavy. Hmm...

Those 2 astropaths are only going to run you 30 pts ... so you can still get some more goodies. Additionally, just start them embarked and disembark to use the power. That will save you the drop. Besides, you should only need 1 Astropath anyway since you can only cast 1 of each power.

What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.

Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.

 argonak wrote:
What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.

Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.

Hotshot volleyguns. I wipe out MEQ and give TEQ a hard time with them. Alternatively, Culexus assassins?

 argonak wrote:
What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.

Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.

How about heavy artillery, such as basilisks?

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.

Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.

Hotshot volleyguns. I wipe out MEQ and give TEQ a hard time with them. Alternatively, Culexus assassins?

I was thinking about those. I'll give a unit with 4 a try in my next game via proxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CplPunishment wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.

Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.

How about heavy artillery, such as basilisks?

I really ought to get one of those, but I haven't been able to decide between it and a manticore. I'll try a basilisk and see what I think.

Hey first post in this thread - I'm looking at starting a guard army, but want to do a converted Ork as guard type crossover. It's going to be a fair bit of work so wanted to get a bit of a short rundown on which units to take and which to avoid. I checked the first post but you guys don't have a summary or anything there.

Im fairly new to 40k, haven't faced guard yet, but from what I've heard these units are good to great: Conscripts + commissar, scion command squads, heavy weapon teams, bullgryn and wyverns/basilisks.

Is that fairly accurate? What else would you add to the list? Doesn't have to be purely top tier stuff, but units you think are worthwhile taking in a list. If you can be bothered, a recommendation on weapons for HWTs and the like would be great.

Conscripts are a wall. You need to chew through them, but they don't really do much more damage than a tactical marine squad unless they get really, really lucky. Like "I roll sixes on everything" lucky. Any weapon that does a lot of shots will be their bane; any assault from units that have a lot of attacks will, as well, especially if you use a transport to absorb overwatch. A trio of flamer/combiflamer tactical squads with support (transports and HQ reroll buffs) can take a conscript squad down in one turn of shooting plus assault. Basically, expect to use more than equal points to take them down quickly, but it's not really that hard to do unless your list is kitted out to take on MEQ and only MEQ.

Scions though... scions are legitimately powerful-- equipped with plasmaguns and hitting on 3+, they're strong enough to threaten most units while being cheap enough that overcharging isn't really a problem for them, especially when combined with Orders to reroll ones. They're the real powerhouse unit behind the top tier IG list, and the complaints about conscripts are throwing a smokescreen in front of the actual problem.

cheesedupree wrote:
Hey first post in this thread - I'm looking at starting a guard army, but want to do a converted Ork as guard type crossover. It's going to be a fair bit of work so wanted to get a bit of a short rundown on which units to take and which to avoid. I checked the first post but you guys don't have a summary or anything there.

Im fairly new to 40k, haven't faced guard yet, but from what I've heard these units are good to great: Conscripts + commissar, scion command squads, heavy weapon teams, bullgryn and wyverns/basilisks.

Is that fairly accurate? What else would you add to the list? Doesn't have to be purely top tier stuff, but units you think are worthwhile taking in a list. If you can be bothered, a recommendation on weapons for HWTs and the like would be great.

Theres no major "bad" units. Just think to yourself: Okay, can I deal with a landraider, can I deal with hordes? Can I deal with Flyers.

In my list I take zero HWT's, Wyverns, Basilisks, etc. So make it how you want.

Build your army around the units you really want to use. Also convert some meks into sentiels! Would look great I think, they're awesome units anyways (With flamers or powerlifters)

Also a a note, HWTs are super-fragile. Even with a cover bonus, a dev squad with heavy bolters will probably wipe out a full squad every turn. And they require LoS to fire, so if you're bringing a significant number of them, they're going to get shot at and you're going to lose a good portion of them.

Okay sweet cheers for the advice. General idea so far is Boyz as Conscripts, Stormboyz for Scions, Warbikes as Rough Riders and mega armoured Nobs as Bullgryn. Not sure what to duse for Sentinels as I love both the regular sentinel models and the killer kans! Should be a fun conversion project in any case.

Vehicles are going to be the expensive part, as unlike the infantry there isn't a huge amount that can be used as either ork or guard (trying to get two playable armies out of one set of models). Outside the wyvern/basilisk what would you recommend making? Thinking of maybe a Taurox? Not sure how big it is, but it could double as a hardtop battlewagon with some conversion.

 argonak wrote:

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.

Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.

Hotshot volleyguns. I wipe out MEQ and give TEQ a hard time with them. Alternatively, Culexus assassins?

I was thinking about those. I'll give a unit with 4 a try in my next game via proxy.


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CplPunishment wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What units are good counters to Rubric marines? The bonus to save against most of my weaponry is really causing me trouble. Especially when they're dug into cover. And their weaponry is generally nasty as well.

Overcharged plasma is obviously one option, but I don't want to spam it and I only have one real command squad built right now anyway, damn things are still sold out.

How about heavy artillery, such as basilisks?

I really ought to get one of those, but I haven't been able to decide between it and a manticore. I'll try a basilisk and see what I think.

I run a batallion of scions: 2 primes and 3 5-man scion units. 230 points base +3CP. Great for stealing objectives and punishing forces that advance quickly. A single five man squad won't be enough, I suspect.

Basilisks are good in multiples as well. If you can't afford 2, 1 might be ok (can't hurt). However many you take, remember that they roll 2d6 and pick the highest to determine the number of shots. A master of ordnance nearby allows them to reroll 1s to hit units more than 36" away.

Basilisks are great since they don't need line of sight, and no longer have a firing arc or minimum range. They are cheaper than the leman Russ, and the earthshaker cannon is better than the battle cannon in so many ways.



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 Melissia wrote:
Also a a note, HWTs are super-fragile. Even with a cover bonus, a dev squad with heavy bolters will probably wipe out a full squad every turn. And they require LoS to fire, so if you're bringing a significant number of them, they're going to get shot at and you're going to lose a good portion of them.

While I generally agree, 3 mortar teams are 27 pts, do 3d6 shots at 48" range and don't need line of sight. Added bonus: they are a great buffer for my basilisks.

CplPunishment wrote:
Basilisks are good in multiples as well. If you can't afford 2, 1 might be ok (can't hurt). However many you take, remember that they roll 2d6 and pick the highest to determine the number of shots. A master of ordnance nearby allows them to reroll 1s to hit units more than 36" away.

If you're buying enough Basilisks that you want a Master of Ordnance as well, strongly consider Sergeant Harker (and <Catachan> Basilisks) over the MoO. Harker has a bigger bubble, no 36"+ restriction, a solid gun, and can affect units outside the Basilisks as well. All for only 12 points more.