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CaptainO wrote:A <MT> Vanguard detachment

What's your 3rd Elite choice.

CaptainO wrote: I might throw one of my astropaths into the cage of steel so Pask starts with a 1+ armour save and allows the cage to ignore the cover saves of one unit.

Is the Leman Russ buffed to 2+ save? Or does Pask increase the the save?


Comparing the regimental tactics and orders of the cadians and the catachans.
Is Pask the only reason to choose Cadians for a Leman Russ detachement?

Firefox1 wrote:
Comparing the regimental tactics and orders of the cadians and the catachans.
Is Pask the only reason to choose Cadians for a Leman Russ detachement?

Well they get to reroll 1s to hit if they don't move. The pound them to dust order mimics the catachan's doctrine for turret weapons, at least slightly. You also have their unique relic (reroll 1s to hit/wound or all hits/wounds vs chaos) and their stratagem (+1 to hit unit already shot at). Basically, if you don't want to stack d6 shot guns, and want to stay still, Cadians are probably better.

One thing that's kind of funny is that cadian doctrine plus PTTD has the same end result as a Catachan giving an Aim order: re-roll a die for number of shots and re-roll 1s to hit.

So it depends on two things: which bonus do you want to be passive vs an order, and what do you want the rest of your army to do?

Though I guess Cadia does also have Pask, and the option to stack an Aim order with their doctrine for full re-rolls, so Cadia is a bit more flexible in the LRBT section.

 ross-128 wrote:
One thing that's kind of funny is that cadian doctrine plus PTTD has the same end result as a Catachan giving an Aim order: re-roll a die for number of shots and re-roll 1s to hit.

So it depends on two things: which bonus do you want to be passive vs an order, and what do you want the rest of your army to do?

Though I guess Cadia does also have Pask, and the option to stack an Aim order with their doctrine for full re-rolls, so Cadia is a bit more flexible in the LRBT section.

Well they are a bit different. Firstly, the Cadians have a tank order whilst take aim is an infantry order. Also, the Cadians need to stay still. I think that is what the choice will come down to in the end. You want a gunline? Play Cadian. You want to move up with flamers? Catachan.

The idea of Tallarn devil dogs is really starting to appeal to me, especially outflanking. Almost guaranteed to get within 12" of something juicy unless the enemy has perfect bubble wrap. Then you get 2-4 melta shots at bs4. Of course, they cost 128 points in the index, so are a bit pricey. It could be much more efficient to just use a demolisher with meltaguns or something.

The one thing that intrigues me is the dozer blade. Only 5 pts, so it isn't going to be anything major but could be decent. There are no difficult terrain checks anymore, so they are not going to do what they used to do. Perhaps some sort of close combat buff? +1 attack, or +1 to hit on the charge? Any guesses?

Hmm. That's interesting. I'm actually kind of excited about what vehicle upgrades there are.

So I see people wanting to Tallarn Ambush super heavies, but I'm not sure the models are small enough to fit within 7".

Within 7" doesnt need to be fully within....right?

Besides the width is just over 6". So if you put it on the side that would work.

No idea what Dozer Blade does but Track Guards prevents vehicles movement from degrading due damage.

And Reece @ Fronglinegaming thinks that allowing Titanic vehicles to use Tallarn stratagem is an oversight. Might be or might not. Still the best use seems to be Tank Commanders due their unique order. The order allows tank to move 6" before OR after shooting. This allows the russ to move into flamer range, grab objectives or just hide from retaliation. Very powerful!

 Trickstick wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
What stratagem gives +1 to armour saves?

Take Cover!: 1 CP, grants one of your units +1 to their saving throws. The unit is chosen in your opponent’s shooting phase after they have nominated that unit as a target.

I'm not 100% but I think this Stratagem is only available in alternate scenarios like Stronghold Assault. Its not one of the 3 Universal Stratagems and it doesn't appear to be mentioned in any of the AM Codex leaks.

Blightstar wrote:
No idea what Dozer Blade does but Track Guards prevents vehicles movement from degrading due damage.

And Reece @ Fronglinegaming thinks that allowing Titanic vehicles to use Tallarn stratagem is an oversight. Might be or might not. Still the best use seems to be Tank Commanders due their unique order. The order allows tank to move 6" before OR after shooting. This allows the russ to move into flamer range, grab objectives or just hide from retaliation. Very powerful!

An oversight? It's specifically written into the stratagem. It's not like they forgot to exclude them: they went to the effort to specifically include them. I think Titanic units will benefit from regimental doctrines.

If they don't, I'd be surprised.

Firefox1 wrote:

CaptainO wrote:A <MT> Vanguard detachment

What's your 3rd Elite choice.

CaptainO wrote: I might throw one of my astropaths into the cage of steel so Pask starts with a 1+ armour save and allows the cage to ignore the cover saves of one unit.

Is the Leman Russ buffed to 2+ save? Or does Pask increase the the save?


Comparing the regimental tactics and orders of the cadians and the catachans.
Is Pask the only reason to choose Cadians for a Leman Russ detachement?

My MT Vanguard detachment is made up of a Taurox Prime, Tempestor Prime plus plasma'd up MT command squad and then 2 astropaths to pad out the elite slots. The detachment is at least 50% TM (its unclear how they're going to measure this but either way 2 units are TM (plus a transport) while 2 or not. Thats 50% in my book and will allow the the Taurox Prime to make use of the Superior Intelligence Strategem.

The astropaths will be able to buff one LRBT to a 2+ save each. This buff can only be used on your own turn so to avoid Pask being shot on the first turn you could use the Take Cover Stratagem (although I think this stratagem may only be used in alternate scenarios like Stronghold Assault)

Either way Pask would be buffed to 2+ with the astropath Physic Barrier.

Previously Pask was taken for his 2+ to hit and his ability to give two orders. However the main reason I'd take a Cadian LRBT detachment now is to use the Cadia specific Stratagem - Overlapping Fields of Fire which allows all units to add +1 to their to hit rolls on a unit already wounded by a Cadian Unit. This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!! (9 of which have a -1AP) That Mathhammers to Pask being able to take 10 Wounds off a MEQ unit! On his own!!! For Overlapping Fields of fire to work said unit would already have had to lose one wound meaning that thats a full unit of 10 MEQ gone with spare change!

I also intend to throw in a Hydra to be the 3rrd Heavy slot in that detachment. If there is a flyer around its hitting on a 3+, after which Overlapping Fields of Fire can be used (for one measly CP) and all the other units in the Detachment (including pask) will be able to hit said flyer without a negative modifier (+1 for Overlapping Fields of Fire, -1 for shooting at a flyer)

Finally I'm trying to work out the mathhammer for the Cadian Specific Order Pound them to Dust but initially it looks like its better than the re-roll 1s order.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
On further reading it appears Cadias doctrine of Born Soldiers already allows a re-roll of 1s if the unit (in this case a LRBT with Battle cannon so 72" range) remains stationary. I thought this was limited to Infantry.

CaptainO wrote:
This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!!

A roll of 1 always fails.

Yep, don't use a +1 to hit buff on a 2+ model unless you're specifically trying to counter a -1 debuff.

Re-rolling 1s, on the other hand, is incredibly strong on a 2+ unit. Because only 1s can miss for them it's effectively re-roll all hits for them, except easier and cheaper to acquire. A 2+ re-rolling 1s will hit 35/36, practically an auto-hit for most models (a Punisher can expect to miss just 1 shot).

This also means putting +1s on a 3+ unit is very valuable, because of how common re-rolling 1s is now a 2+ is a very nice thing to have. You go from 28/36 (3+ re-rolling 1s) to 35/36, and if you have any full re-rolls available you can save them for lower-BS models that actually need them.

Of course due to re-rolling 1s linear relationship to expected successes (it increases expected successes by 1/6 regardless of how you get to that number, IIRC), high BS and high volume of fire are equally valid approaches to maximizing it. But if you're concerned with making sure one particular shot/volley hits (ie your volume of fire is fixed), obviously higher BS is better all other things being equal.

 Trickstick wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!!

A roll of 1 always fails.

Maybe I missed the faq but the RAW says that all subsequent units add one to hit. Does this not mean all 1s = 2s and therefore hit? I could be wrong but if it has been faq'd can you send a link?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch that just found it after a quick check




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Pask doesn't move he'll still kill 10 MEQs in a turn.

Arguably its better to focus the other two LRBT and Hydra on a different unit and use the Overlapping field of fire on that. I was trying to think of a unit that would have models left over to be shot at after Pask kills 10 MEQ




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Pask (with Punisher and 3 Heavy bolters) doesnt move he actually can take out 11.55 MEQ in once shooting phase.

Cadia seems like the best all around option. Some good tools. Vs a knight or something the +1 stratagem would work nicely with a shadowsword. Which didn't move. and rerolls 1's to hit. And if its titanic re-roll all wounds....

Plus everything is already green. Using super heavys with tallaran seem a tad gamey, and as others have said might be an oversight. Will wait for the FAQ

I would say that Catachan is more powerful, as it can be used on the move. If you concentrate in d6 shot weaponry, it becomes very powerful. There is just something about a rule that gives you an advantage to staying still that does not appeal to me, as objective play is so important.

A couple of leaks have stated that rough riders are not in the codex. Can somebody please tell me this incorrect. They just got good!!!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they aren't can I still bring the rough riders from the index to a tournament?

They are missing from the Codex but are still present in the Index so you can still use them as is from there.

I think we'll see a new Rough Riders kit in the future and they'll release new rules for them then. Just my speculation though.

Not in the codex but you are free to use the index as the most recent datasheet for models they no longer make.
OR
you can use DKOK death riders which are even better.

Its not that big a deal the index is still 8th edition and what most armies are using and very little in the codex helps rough riders since they are neither infantry or vehicles.

I'm very torn which doctrines I will use, but Tallarn is looking pretty amazing and very dynamic as others have mentioned. Outflanking Russes/Hellhounds with rough rider support is just very appealing especially combined with their tank order and the relic dagger for more outflanking.

So, if I were to do a "Deep Striking" Tallarn Super-heavy (by putting it in a Supreme Command now that that is confirmed), there's no way to get it into Flamer range, is there?

I know Tallarn's have the special tank-order to move/shoot, but Tank Orders only work on Keyword Leman Russ, right?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, if I were to do a "Deep Striking" Tallarn Super-heavy (by putting it in a Supreme Command now that that is confirmed), there's no way to get it into Flamer range, is there?

I know Tallarn's have the special tank-order to move/shoot, but Tank Orders only work on Keyword Leman Russ, right?

Sure, move it into range next turn after shooting everything else the previous turn.

Tank orders only work on leman russes. I was really hoping they'd include the hellhounds and their variants in that, but the codex review video shows the text still referring specifically to leman russes. I get they don't want titanic units benefiting from orders, but I'll never understand why they don't just specify non-titanic vehicles. *sigh*

Ambushing a superheavy seems great, but there's little preventing the opponent from just moving their army backwards to swarm and kill it without its infantry screen (which definitely doesn't fit within the leftover ambush zone in front of the tank.)

Well, the Super-Heavies at least discourage charging to a degree by refusing to get fully bogged down, now shooting into their own combats, etc...

I was just trying to figure out the value of Sponsons on super-heavies in real-world terms. They're very pricey, on units you either need to decide are going up close, or are staying far away.

Edit: BTW... no one is mentioning it outright, but is it safe to assume to Primeris Psyker can be whatever Regiment we want, so as to not break bonuses?

I'm semi-seriously thinking of running a Leman Russ company at 2k. Tank commander and 3 squadrons of 3.

It's cool how unclear it is which regiment would be best. That said, I think I'm coming down on the side of Tallarns. I think that their mobility will be key. Cadians give you more raw firepower but they encourage you to sit still and cluster around the command tanks.

A slight problem is that I'll have a terrible number of CPs - probably just 4. And I might often want to use the ambush stratagem, using up 3 of them in one go.

In terms of configuration I think I'll probably run two squadrons of standard battlecannon, lascannon and heavy bolter russes. The third squadron will have at least a couple with heavy flamers, which I'll be able to order to zoom around burning people.

I'm not sure what to put in the turrets, other than battlecannons. A couple of punishers and/or demolishers might be good. The battlecannon seems like the best all-round gun though.

This leaves me a bit under 100 points left. I think a primaris psyker makes sense, to try and keep my tank commander alive by making him hard to hit. I might be able to squeeze in the points for a taurox for him to ride in. Alternatives include a tech priest or some scout sentinels to screen.

It would be quite cool to just run the 10 tanks but I'd like to have some chance of achieving the relic mission, so some kind of infantry is a requirement.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, the Super-Heavies at least discourage charging to a degree by refusing to get fully bogged down, now shooting into their own combats, etc...

I was just trying to figure out the value of Sponsons on super-heavies in real-world terms. They're very pricey, on units you either need to decide are going up close, or are staying far away.

Edit: BTW... no one is mentioning it outright, but is it safe to assume to Primeris Psyker can be whatever Regiment we want, so as to not break bonuses?

Most of the auxiliary stuff (techpriests, ogryns, psykers etc) don't get the regimental bonuses but can still be in a detachment and not prevent them either.

As for sponsons, I am torn. I love how my 4 sponson tank looks, so will probably keep it. I can imagine a Catachan Hellhammer with full flamer sponsons doing a lot of damage with the rerolls, or a Tallarn being able to move very fast. With the 2+ hit stratagem, I imagine you want your SH in combat against things that can't hurt it. Imagine charging it into some conscripts, you are basically using the enemy to prevent your tank being shot at, whilst you can shoot fine. Then you can fall back and simply use the stratagem again.

 Trickstick wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, the Super-Heavies at least discourage charging to a degree by refusing to get fully bogged down, now shooting into their own combats, etc...

I was just trying to figure out the value of Sponsons on super-heavies in real-world terms. They're very pricey, on units you either need to decide are going up close, or are staying far away.

Edit: BTW... no one is mentioning it outright, but is it safe to assume to Primeris Psyker can be whatever Regiment we want, so as to not break bonuses?

Most of the auxiliary stuff (techpriests, ogryns, psykers etc) don't get the regimental bonuses but can still be in a detachment and not prevent them either.

As for sponsons, I am torn. I love how my 4 sponson tank looks, so will probably keep it. I can imagine a Catachan Hellhammer with full flamer sponsons doing a lot of damage with the rerolls, or a Tallarn being able to move very fast. With the 2+ hit stratagem, I imagine you want your SH in combat against things that can't hurt it. Imagine charging it into some conscripts, you are basically using the enemy to prevent your tank being shot at, whilst you can shoot fine. Then you can fall back and simply use the stratagem again.

Agreed... but boy are the 4x Sponsons an expensive add-on, essentially coming at the cost of an extra Leman Russ all by themselves. That said... I am thinking a mixed Militarum list is looking optimal, with the Tallarn part not only ambushing, but in doing so, cutting down your number of deployment drops dramatically.

CaptainO wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!!

A roll of 1 always fails.

Maybe I missed the faq but the RAW says that all subsequent units add one to hit. Does this not mean all 1s = 2s and therefore hit? I could be wrong but if it has been faq'd can you send a link?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch that just found it after a quick check




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Pask doesn't move he'll still kill 10 MEQs in a turn.

Arguably its better to focus the other two LRBT and Hydra on a different unit and use the Overlapping field of fire on that. I was trying to think of a unit that would have models left over to be shot at after Pask kills 10 MEQ




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Pask (with Punisher and 3 Heavy bolters) doesnt move he actually can take out 11.55 MEQ in once shooting phase.

Well, if it's Pask and two command tank buddies, what you can do with the cadian stratagem is shoot with Pask first.

He's sure to do at least one wound, so now both of his command tank buddies can hit on 2+ as well. It's like having three Pasks!

If there's anything left of the target, anyway. Anything you'd want to focus three Pasks on is probably a superheavy of some sort.

I don't think Super Heavies get <Regiment> doctrines.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/10/02/astra-militarum-8th-edition-codex-leak-compilation/

"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."

Wulfey wrote:
I don't think Super Heavies get <Regiment> doctrines.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/10/02/astra-militarum-8th-edition-codex-leak-compilation/

"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."

So, that confirms (just as Reece does in Frontlines Pt2 Codex review), that super-heavies DO get it in Supreme Command, or the 3x Super-Heavy detachments.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
I don't think Super Heavies get <Regiment> doctrines.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/10/02/astra-militarum-8th-edition-codex-leak-compilation/

"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."

So, that confirms (just as Reece does in Frontlines Pt2 Codex review), that super-heavies DO get it in Supreme Command, or the 3x Super-Heavy detachments.

That would be the `oversight` portion where GW forgot to keep the <regiment> out of the other ways to get super-heavies on the board.