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Wulfey wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
I don't think Super Heavies get <Regiment> doctrines.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/10/02/astra-militarum-8th-edition-codex-leak-compilation/

"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."

So, that confirms (just as Reece does in Frontlines Pt2 Codex review), that super-heavies DO get it in Supreme Command, or the 3x Super-Heavy detachments.

That would be the `oversight` portion where GW forgot to keep the <regiment> out of the other ways to get super-heavies on the board.

I don't think so... as I can imagine the larger detachments almost being considered a "tax" preventing you from just arbitrarily adding one, buffed, super-heavy to essentially any Imperium army and reaching Regiment benefits. I suspect its intentional.

Either that or they just wanted to make sure that if you want to get regiment rules on superheavies, you've really got to commit.

I think the auxiliary detachment might be excluded not because it's a superheavy, but because it's only a single model.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Blightstar wrote:
No idea what Dozer Blade does but Track Guards prevents vehicles movement from degrading due damage.

And Reece @ Fronglinegaming thinks that allowing Titanic vehicles to use Tallarn stratagem is an oversight. Might be or might not. Still the best use seems to be Tank Commanders due their unique order. The order allows tank to move 6" before OR after shooting. This allows the russ to move into flamer range, grab objectives or just hide from retaliation. Very powerful!

An oversight? It's specifically written into the stratagem. It's not like they forgot to exclude them: they went to the effort to specifically include them. I think Titanic units will benefit from regimental doctrines.

If they don't, I'd be surprised.

Ah yes of course Titanic units will get regimental rules (if they are in non-aux detachments). The "oversight" part Reece mentioned was the "outflank" reserve-stratagem Tallarn has. Going over my Baneblade (old forgeworld pattern mind you), he is actually too big to use the stratagem!

Aux detachments have been excluded from every Chapter/Legion/Forge World etc rules already. No surprise that aux detachments don't get regimental bonuses either.

Actually, I think the superheavies are too big for the tallarn ambush stratagem. Reason being is the chasis is a little over 7" at its width with sponsors on and you need to wholly within 7".

It doesn't say wholly. As long as part of every model of a unit is within 7in the entire unit is within 7in. If one side rear track of a baneblade is within 7in the entire model is within 7in.

Tallarn Stratagem: Ambush: 3 CP, place 3 Tallarn units in reserves, these enter the battlefield within 7″ of any board edge, more than 9″ away from enemy units

Calvhalla wrote:
Actually, I think the superheavies are too big for the tallarn ambush stratagem. Reason being is the chasis is a little over 7" at its width with sponsors on and you need to wholly within 7".

So you an outflank if you want to give up sponsons. A very viable option for some of the transport variants, as the power comes more from the contents. An outflanking banehammer/doomhammer is pretty cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
It doesn't say wholly.

Tallarn Stratagem: Ambush: 3 CP, place 3 Tallarn units in reserves, these enter the battlefield within 7″ of any board edge, more than 9″ away from enemy units

Do we have the actual rule text? I have only seen that editorialised summary. We do have The Dagger of Tu’Sakh text, which is similar. That does indeed have the word wholly.

I am basing it off flgs text on every strategem. However I'm fairly sure it was also in the video. It's possible they made a mistake Transcribing.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/09/30/codex-review-astra-militarum/

Yeah I think they just didn't write the rule 100% accurately in their summary, and it does in fact have the "wholly" word. If it does not, you have the possibility of chaining things like conscripts half way across the board.

 ross-128 wrote:

CaptainO wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!!

A roll of 1 always fails.

Maybe I missed the faq but the RAW says that all subsequent units add one to hit. Does this not mean all 1s = 2s and therefore hit? I could be wrong but if it has been faq'd can you send a link?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch that just found it after a quick check




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Pask doesn't move he'll still kill 10 MEQs in a turn.

Arguably its better to focus the other two LRBT and Hydra on a different unit and use the Overlapping field of fire on that. I was trying to think of a unit that would have models left over to be shot at after Pask kills 10 MEQ




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Pask (with Punisher and 3 Heavy bolters) doesnt move he actually can take out 11.55 MEQ in once shooting phase.

Well, if it's Pask and two command tank buddies, what you can do with the cadian stratagem is shoot with Pask first.

He's sure to do at least one wound, so now both of his command tank buddies can hit on 2+ as well. It's like having three Pasks!

If there's anything left of the target, anyway. Anything you'd want to focus three Pasks on is probably a superheavy of some sort.

I loved this idea but then started doing the mathhammer using http://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

Get this, there isn't really a need to upgrade your supporting tanks to command tanks even if fighting a superheavy!?!?

All you need is Pask in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters and ONE bog standard LRBT with Battle cannon and hull mounted Heavy Bolter.

If you remain still with Pask and shoot with him first (40 x s5 shots ap0, 9 x s5 shots ap-1, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s)
then follow up with your bog standard LRBT with Battle cannon and hull mounted Heavy Bolter (d6 x s8 shots (reroll number of shots) ap-2, 3 x s5 shots ap-1, hitting on 3s (+1 thanks to fields of fire), re-rolling 1s to hit)
you'll take 27.287 wounds off a 26W t8 3+ armour save baneblade equivalent!!!

Granted the punishers 24" range isn't great and will make standing still (and therefore get the reroll 1s ) difficult but even if Pask has to move up to 5" (half his range) this combo will take off 24.5 baneblade wounds

The cost of this 1 round baneblade killer combo...367 points!!!

The math is waaayyy off in that simulator.
Pask:
Punisher cannon does 4,3 wounds
Bolters do 1,4 wounds

So with that math single russ would have to do ~21 wounds to a baneblade.

There is some weird escalating bug in there. After punisher, even a single heavy bolter shot would do multiple wounds.

Balls really?

Looks like I'm going to have to do it by hand.

Give me... a while...

gungo wrote:
It doesn't say wholly. As long as part of every model of a unit is within 7in the entire unit is within 7in. If one side rear track of a baneblade is within 7in the entire model is within 7in.

Tallarn Stratagem: Ambush: 3 CP, place 3 Tallarn units in reserves, these enter the battlefield within 7″ of any board edge, more than 9″ away from enemy units

That doesn't seem right. That would mean you could exceed 7in by putting the ass end within 7 and the rest further forward, which can't be right, say nothing about chaining a 30 man unit of conscripts from one end of the board to the other as long as one is within 7".

CaptainO wrote:
Balls really?

Looks like I'm going to have to do it by hand.

Give me... a while...

The combo does approx 9 wounds.

Poor math is involved with the OP.

Ya after doing it by hand the combo only comes to a significantly lower 10.566 wounds.

My fault for trusting something I found on the internet.

Should have taken that Nigerian Princes advice....

Like many I'm also interested in trying out the Russes with the new dex, and wondering what'll be optimal.

If the Punisher variant is the math winner, it's still limited by the 24" range. It's hard to get the Grinding Advance double shots due to range limitations, and extremely hard to take advantage of the Cadian re-rolls for not moving at all with a short range gun like that.

I like the idea of outflanking three Tallarn Punishers. They'll get to range, they can get normal tank commanders, they get to alpha strike, and they most likely double shot. Their sponsons don't take any modifiers from moving either, so that's some bonus damage right there.

I'm eagerly waiting for Saturday to get to see the whole picture, and the points costs.

I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...

I'm not quite sure either. The Vulture was doing this before and with quite solid stats. Honestly, I'm opposed to the punisher because I already roll enough dice, no need to roll 40 for a tank. I'll probably stick with the iconic battle Cannon

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...

Overall volume of fire is seen as generally being more useful nowadays than quality of fire. It's the secondary effect to AP getting walked back this edition, hurting almost anything on a 5+, and now getting full BS with the turret even when the LR is moving. If you can improve BS further or grant a reroll, the effect of the benefit is going to be that much more profound on a 40 shot weapon that it would be on, say, a two shot weapon.

So, I was hoping for some help with a silly list. It's all melee guard all the time, basically trying to be a better melee horde than orks.



I also plan to combine squads so straken has 1-2 big blobs with him, yarrick, the psyker, and a priest, a couple back guarding the earthshakers, and the rest doing whatever.

I'm trying to figure out what would be best to fill it out the rest of the way. Power mauls on the commanders and as many sarges as possible for str 6 seemed decent, but I was wondering if there was anything people might recommend. I'm also not sure if this is enough guardsmen overall, I was considering some rough riders instead of sentinels, just for a few more bodies on the table.

SilverAlien wrote:
So, I was hoping for some help with a silly list. It's all melee guard all the time, basically trying to be a better melee horde than orks.

Spoiler:

1892 points total

++Catachan Brigade++
Straken
Primaris Psyker
Yarrick
7x10 infantry squads
2 priests
Harker
3x1 scout sentinels (heavy flamer)
3x1 earthshaker batteries

1046 points

++Catachan Brigade++
3 Company Commander
7x10 infantry squads
2 priests
1 platoon commander
3x1 scout sentinels (heavy flamer)
3x1 earthshaker batteries

846 points

I also plan to combine squads so straken has 1-2 big blobs with him, yarrick, the psyker, and a priest, a couple back guarding the earthshakers, and the rest doing whatever.

I'm trying to figure out what would be best to fill it out the rest of the way. Power mauls on the commanders and as many sarges as possible for str 6 seemed decent, but I was wondering if there was anything people might recommend. I'm also not sure if this is enough guardsmen overall, I was considering some rough riders instead of sentinels, just for a few more bodies on the table.

You need more commissars. And normally with S3 P.Mauls are the best due taking you into S5 but as you are already S4, taking axes is best way to go. Only instance where mauls are better than axes are against T3 6+ troops.

SilverAlien wrote:
I also plan to combine squads so straken has 1-2 big blobs with him...

I am going to predict that the combined squad stratagem will have some sort of "if a unit ends its movement phase within 2" of another..." wording. That would make it work the way I think they want it to, as a way to "consolidate squads" that have been wounded as a counter to kill points. That is the name of the stratagem after all. It would limit you to 1 consolidate a turn, killing huge squads as a viable tactic. A melee Guard list can still work very well though.

Can you imagine if you didn't have to have unit cohesion to do it though? That would get crazy silly. This wall of infantry here? It can't ever move again, but I can now remove casualties from it from this squad (points at other side of the table) waaaay over here!

 daedalus wrote:
Can you imagine if you didn't have to have unit cohesion to do it though? That would get crazy silly. This wall of infantry here? It can't ever move again, but I can now remove casualties from it from this squad (points at other side of the table) waaaay over here!

You know, that sounds like something that could easily be in the rules.

Blightstar wrote:
You need more commissars. And normally with S3 P.Mauls are the best due taking you into S5 but as you are already S4, taking axes is best way to go. Only instance where mauls are better than axes are against T3 6+ troops.

Actually, the power maul is better vs toughness three sv 5+, three hits results in an average 2.08 wounds with maul vs 2 with axe, it's better vs toughness three with a 6+, 7+, or any toughness three that relies on an invulnerable or fnp save, and is the exact same vs toughness four sv 6+ but costs a point less. So honestly the maul is better against every single enemy infantry unit I would expect to see in large numbers.

As for why I'm not using commissars, it's fluffy, Yarrick can babysit the 1-2 big squads I make, and catachan's get LD 8 near an officer already, which should be good enough for squads of 10.

 daedalus wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...

Overall volume of fire is seen as generally being more useful nowadays than quality of fire. It's the secondary effect to AP getting walked back this edition, hurting almost anything on a 5+, and now getting full BS with the turret even when the LR is moving. If you can improve BS further or grant a reroll, the effect of the benefit is going to be that much more profound on a 40 shot weapon that it would be on, say, a two shot weapon.

Volume fire is very strong, I agree.

I don;t agree on the other point though - it's exactly the same buff to both weapons (assuming both weapons are equal in terms of damaging whatever you're shooting at). The battle cannon is still generally better at shooting toughness 6+ models, and generally worse at lower than this. Giving them the exact same accuracy buffs doesn't change anything. I'm just a bit surprised that everyone only seems to be seeing the punisher as the go-to choice now!

I'm thinking of sticking to LRBTs with Catachan doctrine. Dependably heavy damage, fairly low on points. Great range.

Orders and Harker make it pretty easy to get rerolls even on the move.

I don't like the Punisher, I much prefer the LRBT as a go-to tank. 40 shots is indeed nice, but having 24" range, no AP value and only 1 damage per shot really makes it ineffective vs anything other than light infantry compared to a well rolled battle cannon shot. Since light infantry is already dealt with more efficiently by ever present mortars, lasguns and heavy bolters, I see no reason to use a Punisher. If I want Punisher Cannons I take them on a deepstriking Elysian Vulture.

Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!

Punishers might be something Vostroians want to have a second look at. Same with MM sponsons.

SilverAlien wrote:

Blightstar wrote:
You need more commissars. And normally with S3 P.Mauls are the best due taking you into S5 but as you are already S4, taking axes is best way to go. Only instance where mauls are better than axes are against T3 6+ troops.

Actually, the power maul is better vs toughness three sv 5+, three hits results in an average 2.08 wounds with maul vs 2 with axe, it's better vs toughness three with a 6+, 7+, or any toughness three that relies on an invulnerable or fnp save, and is the exact same vs toughness four sv 6+ but costs a point less. So honestly the maul is better against every single enemy infantry unit I would expect to see in large numbers.

As for why I'm not using commissars, it's fluffy, Yarrick can babysit the 1-2 big squads I make, and catachan's get LD 8 near an officer already, which should be good enough for squads of 10.

You're right about that althought the difference between 2 and 2,08 casulties is pretty non-existent in the end. But my line of thought with axes was that your list doesnt really need more help killing that chaff, does it? Giving out axes (or even swords) would give you more teeth against marines and other toughish~ targets.

But you might be right about the commissars. I completely forgot about that +1LD thing. The difference really isnt that great. But with commissars you (or your opponent) woudlnt have to rely on luck for survival. You would always know the result: if there is still 2 guys standing, the squad isnt going to die to morale. Personally I love mitigating all the possible roll based chances as always as I can. Makes for a bit more sturdier strategies. Also helps a bit with Combined Squads.

edit: TL;DR: just give your guys ANY power weapons because that 4/5pts is going to give results and use commissars or not, I would prefer it but they arent really lynchpins like they are with conscripts.