Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Oldman Lee**

What are people thoughts on a armoured company list are they viable at all? Also what super heavy would work best in a armoured company ?

**malamis**

DoomMouse wrote:
I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...

The Paskisher cannon will be averaging 7 dead marines *by itself* - ((5 * 4 * 2)/216 )* 40) which becomes a non trivial deal, whereas everything but the exterminator (of all things) would still be scraping around 5 or so with average random shots.

I think it's more because everyone's flipped their proverbial about conscripts and 'Moar Dakka' seems like the natural solution, despite it only killing 14~ average with the upgrade.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oldman Lee wrote:
What are people thoughts on a armoured company list are they viable at all? Also what super heavy would work best in a armoured company ?

Cheapest + sponsons.

Steel Behemoth giving 'ignores heavy weapons' is HUGE and makes the lascannon/heavy bolter setup remarkably viable

I'll personally be going for the stormsword as they found the missing 'good ammo' somewhere, and it's going to be forcing invuls on everything, even in cover.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Otto von Bludd wrote:

Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!

I've been slowly working a conversion of a 3rd edition ebay russ with a hull mounted punisher, turning it literally into a gatling gun on tracks. I quite agree that having it turret mounted just doesn't look right :|

**CaptainO**

Has anyone tried the Deathstrike? By that I mean has anyone taken it and then actually managed to fire it off. I was thinking hide it for turn 1 as far back as possible hopefully avoiding the enemies wrath, turn 2 pop smoke and maybe use take cover to keep it alive then fire in turn 3 on 5+ (use a command point to reroll making it a 50% chance)

Alternatively, and this is super sneaky, take it as part of a Tallarn detachment, use the Ambush Stratagem and bring it onto the board turn 3/4. Tallarn doctrine means it doesn't have -1 to hit with heavy even if you moved so you could fire it immediately. If you combined this stratagem with the new Vortex missile stratagem then you are eating up 6CPs but damn!!

Its unclear if all 3 ambushing units have to be brought onto the board at the same time but if you were able to stagger them then 2 x LRBT brought in turn 1/2 and then Deathstrike later...

**Unit1126PLL**

So Titanic units do get regimental bonuses in the Super-Heavy Detachment.

Looks like Super Heavy Regiments are viable (yay for me!) but bringing a regular Super Heavy to an otherwise normal game will dock you points (unless it is part of a Supreme Command detachment).

**necron99**

Oldman Lee wrote:
What are people thoughts on a armoured company list are they viable at all? Also what super heavy would work best in a armoured company ?

I like this question. When 8E first came out I took every bit of armor I had (which really wasn't enough), sprinkled the required bodies in per the detachment and viola. A buddy of mine did the same with better effect - he ran a hoard of LBRT's, three bassies, two manticores and a couple of infantry units, etc. I still don't know where he came up with so many LBRT's but he did finally abandon the list and moved on to Chaos and Eldar lists.

Still I wouldn't mind building up a three super heavy vehicle baneblade variant list. I just got three FW earth shaker carriages (from ChinaWorld) and they accidentally threw in the parts to make Trojan support vehicles...I see that as a sign...

**stratigo**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
I don't like the Punisher, I much prefer the LRBT as a go-to tank. 40 shots is indeed nice, but having 24" range, no AP value and only 1 damage per shot really makes it ineffective vs anything other than light infantry compared to a well rolled battle cannon shot. Since light infantry is already dealt with more efficiently by ever present mortars, lasguns and heavy bolters, I see no reason to use a Punisher. If I want Punisher Cannons I take them on a deepstriking Elysian Vulture.

Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!

You want a punisher on pask or a commander. The amount of infantry horde the game has now makes it pretty darn good.

I wouldn't suggest taking all your tanks as punishers, but it really does benefit you to have one

**Panzergraf**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!

Totally agree, but I won't deny it seems like an effective tank.
Maybe you could convert a Russ to have a quad autocannon - basically a double Exterminator - and field it as a Punisher?

**vipoid**

Regarding the new codex, is there any way to get a Vostroyan Lord Commissar?

**Ir0njack**

No, commissars of all types are <Officio Prefectus> and thus dont get <Regiment> or its bonuses. On the plus side you can take a lord commissar and he won't stop your <regimemt> unit from receiving doctrine bonuses.

**vipoid**

Ir0njack wrote:
No, commissars of all types are <Officio Prefectus> and thus dont get <Regiment> or its bonuses. On the plus side you can take a lord commissar and he won't stop your <regimemt> unit from receiving doctrine bonuses.

Well, that's really disappointing.

I take it that means Lord Commissars cant take the Vostoryan warlord trait even when they're in a Vostoryan detachment?

**Trickstick**

BTW, after 97 pages I think the answer to the thread title is "yes".

(-:

**Razerous**

Demolishers... Squee

**Otto von Bludd**

I won't deny the Punisher is good, but when considering its damage output vs other variants we need to factor in that it may have one less round of shooting (though this is less of an issue with certain doctrines now) and that short range means it may not be able to engage the target it wants to. It's also open to be counter deployed against and, as it shoots at 24", it may only ever get 1 turn of shooting because it puts itself in danger by getting in that range.
The sooner you can put damage on targets the better, with turn 1 being the most important turn to do it in, and this is a major drawback of the Punisher.

It's things like this that keep the Punisher from being the go-to in my opinion.

**Trickstick**

I think that there is only the option for the power sword in the new codex, not the axe/maul. That could hurt some people's models. I guess you can "counts as" for them at least. I lived through the "sergeants can't have lasguns" apocalypse, this is nothing.

**vipoid**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
I won't deny the Punisher is good, but when considering its damage output vs other variants we need to factor in that it may have one less round of shooting (though this is less of an issue with certain doctrines now) and that short range means it may not be able to engage the target it wants to. It's also open to be counter deployed against and, as it shoots at 24", it may only ever get 1 turn of shooting because it puts itself in danger by getting in that range.

What about if you use it with the Vostoryan Doctorine?

**Razerous**

Emergency Plasma Vents & Demolisher cannons have gotten better

**vipoid**

Razerous wrote:
Emergency Plasma Vents & Demolisher cannons have gotten better

What do Emergency Plasma Vents do now?

**Blightstar**

vipoid wrote:
Razerous wrote:
Emergency Plasma Vents & Demolisher cannons have gotten better

What do Emergency Plasma Vents do now?

Every roll of 1 does one Mortal Wound now.

**Colonel Cross**

They only lose 1 wound per hit rolls of a 1.

**vipoid**

Ah, that's a lot more reasonable.

**crouching lictor**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
I won't deny the Punisher is good, but when considering its damage output vs other variants we need to factor in that it may have one less round of shooting (though this is less of an issue with certain doctrines now) and that short range means it may not be able to engage the target it wants to. It's also open to be counter deployed against and, as it shoots at 24", it may only ever get 1 turn of shooting because it puts itself in danger by getting in that range.
The sooner you can put damage on targets the better, with turn 1 being the most important turn to do it in, and this is a major drawback of the Punisher.

It's things like this that keep the Punisher from being the go-to in my opinion.

Field one to three punishers in a Tallarn regiment and outflank them using the stratagem. You'll either be in range or have caused your opponent to modify their scheme of maneuver to account for three outflanking tanks. It is match up dependent of course but it can be a real game changer.

**Red Corsair**

stratigo wrote:
Otto von Bludd wrote:
I don't like the Punisher, I much prefer the LRBT as a go-to tank. 40 shots is indeed nice, but having 24" range, no AP value and only 1 damage per shot really makes it ineffective vs anything other than light infantry compared to a well rolled battle cannon shot. Since light infantry is already dealt with more efficiently by ever present mortars, lasguns and heavy bolters, I see no reason to use a Punisher. If I want Punisher Cannons I take them on a deepstriking Elysian Vulture.

Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!

You want a punisher on pask or a commander. The amount of infantry horde the game has now makes it pretty darn good.

I wouldn't suggest taking all your tanks as punishers, but it really does benefit you to have one

If you want to feth up hordes then just take cyclopes demo vehicles from a catachan detachment. Those things will absolutely mulch an enemy infantry line in one round and they are cheap as dirt even compared to a punisher. Just hide them behind a pair of hellhounds first turn and then drive them up turn 2 and profit. Punisher is definitely over rated, its solid depending on your doctrine and I can see it for example on talarn ambushers or mordian objective grabbers (go ahead charge my tanks lol) but ultimately deveral other variants are much more useful more often. ap- is god awful against some of the stronger units out there right now, castellans in aegis for example, pretty much any infantry in cover lol. Against ANY supersonic target. Then there is the range issue, if I am taking russes I want them dealing damage turn 1+ not turn 2+ and in a pinch if you need those shots elsewhere on the table suddenly, grinding advance and short range will screw you over again. Not hating on it just saying it isnt the end all be all.

**WatcherZero**

I went through the new codex making note of changes not well publicised, not double checked my list yet though. Theres a huge amount of changes to power level but relatively few to points cost. Weirdly some stuff has gone down in points and up in power level.

Points changes:

Baneblade -40
Shadowsword -40
Hellhammer -40
Banehammer -20
Hydra -15
Leman Russ -10 (all variants merged) but no point reduction for Pask or Tank Commander
Master of Ordinance -8
Taurox -15
Enginseer -10
Valkyrie -20
Colonel Straken -15
Hot Shot Volley Gun -3
Melta Cannon -15
Special Weapon Squad -15 (from removal of mandatory Demo charges though must still take 3 special weapons instead so only cheaper in theory)

Heavy Weapon Squad +2
Taurox Prime +5
Plasma gun on a <4+ BS unit +6

Power Points Changes:

Company Commander -1
Tank Commander -1
Pask -1
Colonel Straken -1
Command Squad -1
Special Weapons Squad -1
Veterans Squad -1 Autogun added as weapon choice but identical statline to lasgun.
Ministorum Priest -1 (and lost weapons except Autogun and chainsword)
Servitors -1
Ratlings remain 2 (while 5 more is -1 to 1)
Armoured Sentinels gained 1 toughness
Leman Russ -1
Leman Russ Demolisher -2 (merged with normal russ)
Valkyrie -2
Baneblade -2
Hellhammer -1
Shadowsword -1
Stormlord -1

Tempestor Prime +1
Crusaders +1 to 2 (While each 2 more unchanged at 1)
Ogryn +1 to 5 (But additional 3/6 remain +4/8)
Hellhounds +1
Scout Sentinel +1
Basilisk +1 (while additions remain unchanged)
Hydra +1 (while additions remain unchanged)
Wyverns +1 (addition was changed this time)
Manticore +1 (still cant squadron)
Chimera +1
Banesword +1
Doomhammer +1
Stormsword +1

Melee Weapon list has had power maul and power axe removed.

New Vehicle equipment list
Augur array 10 points 1 hit die reroll with unit per game in shooting phase
Dozer Blade 5 points +1 weapon skill on turn unit charges
Track Guards 10 points, ignore damage table in regards to range degradation
Heavy Stubber
Storm Bolter
Hunter Killer Missile
* A vehicle cannot take both a heavy stubber and a storm bolter
**Every vehicle can access vehicle equipment list except Sentinels, Valkyrie and Baneblade variants

**edbradders**

Does that mean I can give my LRBT an extra heavy bolter?

**WatcherZero**

Comes with cannon and 1 heavy bolter,
May replace heavy bolter with heavy flamer or Lascannon
May take two Heavy Bolters/Flamers/Multi Melta/plasma cannon
May take items from vehicle equipment list.

Ahh I see I put Heavy Bolter instead of Storm Bolter in equipment list, amended.

**edbradders**

So, just to be clear, I can take a LRBT with a hull mounted heavy bolter, 2 sponson heavy bolters, and another heavy bolter from the vehicle equipment list?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I don’t have the codex yet)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, never mind

**vipoid**

Do our Power Fists still costs just 2pts less than SM ones?

**Trickstick**

vipoid wrote:
Do our Power Fists still costs just 2pts less than SM ones?

If space marine power fists are 12 pts, then yes.

**daedalus**

I really saw more point increases than that coming. Wow. This is going to be a really, really good codex.

So, like, what's the guard primary weakness at this point? Mobility still? It seems like everything is rewarding you for sitting still or not moving very far (in the case of the LR).

**WatcherZero**

Based on these changes my 100 power/2000 point Armoured/Artillery Column list got 2 power more expensive and 71 points cheaper, my mixed infantry/armour list got both 2 power and nearly 100 points cheaper.

You will generally be worse off power wise if your army had a lot of artillery and points wise if you had a lot of veterans with plasma otherwise you should be better off.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
I really saw more point increases than that coming. Wow. This is going to be a really, really good codex.

So, like, what's the guard primary weakness at this point? Mobility still? It seems like everything is rewarding you for sitting still or not moving very far (in the case of the LR).

Probably lack of invul saves apart from Crusaders/Bullgryn and a couple of characters meaning vehicles are very vulnerable to AP (6+ on Plasma equivalent and no save on Lascannon/Melta) and troops are very vulnerable to Ap 0/1 Dakka. Powerful psykers and vehicle explosions that cause area effect mortal wounds also hurt a lot as we tend to have higher numbers of units in a small area meaning more victims and we are still generally inferior to everything else in melee apart from a couple of specialist units that can match terminators blow for blow.