Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.

The entire point of elites is because they get regimental doctrines (although I guess you meant the old carapace-style ones). They are the units that you want to use many of the doctrines and stratagems on. For instance, they make good mechanised units on an Armageddon list, as you get a lot more firepower for your 1cp ability when dismounting. They are the the unit you want to give the Mordian's exploding 6s through Volley Fire. Personally, I am thinking that outflanking a unit of Tallarn shotgun meltavets can work really well. Order them to move move move to get them inside 6" in the shooting phase, and the doctrine lets you shoot your guns with no penalty.

Veterans seem in a much better place than they were in the index, as they are no longer just "worse scions". The regimental doctrines, orders and stratagems open up a whole load more possibilities and they are one of the better units to do crazy buffs on. Sure, command squads can do a similar thing but you are losing all of your ablative wounds if you go that route, as well as the extra firepower that lasguns/shotguns give.

ah ok, i havent been able to pick up the codex yet (store got screwed with their order) so I havent been able to see every new interaction the codex has

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
ah ok, i havent been able to pick up the codex yet (store got screwed with their order) so I havent been able to see every new interaction the codex has

yeah I'm still digesting it too. For instance, I think MMM stops you firing at all, not just because you advanced. May need to rethink my flanking meltavets. I was looking forward to getting them within 6". I guess I can still do Get Around Behind Them on a flamer demolisher though.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I dunno. Maybe. I'm just trying to come up with a "good" steel legion list. Everyone and their grandmother has a cadian or a catachan list. It's not hard to make them competitive. The more obscure regiments though?

When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?

But I'm trying to not be so negative. There has to be SOME way to make mechanized guard viable. That's steel legion's whole thing!

Steel legion got hosed though, even vostroya is better at what they do IMO. Sure your double tap is 3" shorter but your max range is 6" longer and meanwhile all your heavies also benefit. The steel legion order is just awful since you can't jump out, shoot , then reenter in the same turn so why bother wasting your energy trying to synergize that order. Just play vostroya and pack either 4 command squads into a chimera or two into a taurox.

Honestly though, best transport we have by far is the valkyrie. it starts the game with -1 to hit it and you can nightshroud it for -2 when you need another turn to get somewhere, or wait on your enemy to move first, heck if you wanted you can put another psycher into it (astropath?) and drop him solo on a later turn to night shroud it again.

Either way I don't care for steel legion, i think they may be the worst doctrine and order.

So, it looks like if I add a fortification to my list, I must either pay a CP for an auxiliary or lose my regimental doctrine?

I guess that Firestorm Redoubt I received a while back is getting put away

 vipoid wrote:

gungo wrote:

No scions should never have been troops in astra militarum detachments.

I agree.

However, this doesn't actually solve the problem. Vets are still going to be competing with Scions (who have better delivery) and SWSs (which are far more efficient).

I think Vets and SWSs need to be troops, Scions should be elites, and Vets shouldn't be paying twice as much as other infantry for their plasmaguns.

The only really bad thing about plasma gun was the fact how it works with deepstrike at 9in makes it the ideal range. Had melta worked at 9+in or flamers worked at 9+in we wouldn't have the issue with plasma being so good for the cost.

However while I agree vets should be paying 7pts for plasma to make them situationslly better then scions. That would only further makes special weapon teams even more redundant.

Special weapon teams should be 3 models with access to 3x flamers, demo charges, grenade launchers, sniper rifles and melta. this way guard can have calm dropped melta, valk dropped flamer/demo teams, and sniper teams again.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.

The entire point of elites is because they get regimental doctrines (although I guess you meant the old carapace-style ones). They are the units that you want to use many of the doctrines and stratagems on. For instance, they make good mechanised units on an Armageddon list, as you get a lot more firepower for your 1cp ability when dismounting. They are the the unit you want to give the Mordian's exploding 6s through Volley Fire. Personally, I am thinking that outflanking a unit of Tallarn shotgun meltavets can work really well. Order them to move move move to get them inside 6" in the shooting phase, and the doctrine lets you shoot your guns with no penalty.

Veterans seem in a much better place than they were in the index, as they are no longer just "worse scions". The regimental doctrines, orders and stratagems open up a whole load more possibilities and they are one of the better units to do crazy buffs on. Sure, command squads can do a similar thing but you are losing all of your ablative wounds if you go that route, as well as the extra firepower that lasguns/shotguns give.

ah ok, i havent been able to pick up the codex yet (store got screwed with their order) so I havent been able to see every new interaction the codex has

Also I think people are placing more weight on the move to elites then it's worth. Obsec isn't that big a deal in general, let alone on a small squishy unit like vets. From all my games in 8th it seems way more worthwhile to focus on either durability or damage. Conscripts are by far are most durable unit and incidentally come with obsec anyway. If your using anything else you are trying to maximize your killing potential. I mean, I hardly ever have obsec on storm troopers matter. They drop in, cream something then get shot off the table or assaulted to death. When they drop in due to the way the rules for deepstrikers are written obsec doesn't even matter. If they live it generally means I am wasting the other player already anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

gungo wrote:

No scions should never have been troops in astra militarum detachments.

I agree.

However, this doesn't actually solve the problem. Vets are still going to be competing with Scions (who have better delivery) and SWSs (which are far more efficient).

I think Vets and SWSs need to be troops, Scions should be elites, and Vets shouldn't be paying twice as much as other infantry for their plasmaguns.

The only really bad thing about plasma gun was the fact how it works with deepstrike at 9in makes it the ideal range. Had melta worked at 9+in or flamers worked at 9+in we wouldn't have the issue with plasma being so good for the cost.

However while I agree vets should be paying 7pts for plasma to make them situationslly better then scions. That would only further makes special weapon teams even more redundant.

Special weapon teams should be 3 models with access to 3x flamers, demo charges, grenade launchers, sniper rifles and melta. this way guard can have calm dropped melta, valk dropped flamer/demo teams, and sniper teams again.

3 model units would be just as silly though, all you would see would be transports packed with flamers and vets would be overlooked again anyway. I think 6 man units is fine, but they definitely needed some other incentive. Demo charges would have kept them as an option but maybe giving them access to 3 heavy flamers would have made them distinct enough as well. IDK maybe the best use for them is to combine them with other infantry.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
So, it looks like if I add a fortification to my list, I must either pay a CP for an auxiliary or lose my regimental doctrine?

I guess that Firestorm Redoubt I received a while back is getting put away

Nothing at all changed about how you would go about including a fortification in your list, fortifications will never prevent your other units from getting doctrines, and you can't bring a fortification in an auxiliary support detachment anyway.

Regarding Veterans and SWSs, I think one big issue is that we have a lot of units performing near-identical roles.

For example, if we want to spam special weapons, we've got:
- Veterans
- Command Squads
- SWSs
- Scions
- Scion Command Squads

Now, we can perhaps separate Scions due to their delivery method, but that still leaves us with 3 units that can spam special weapons. This also leaves us with 3 Elite Choices (though why exactly the SWS is an Elite choice continues to baffle me).

What's more, none of these units have any special rules or such to distinguish them.

ThePorcupine wrote:
When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?

As an avid Steel Legion fan myself, I have to admit... Steel Legion just isn't competitive. I don't think they're irredeemably terrible, and they'll do fine on a casual level. I started writing a whole long rant, but I think it can be summed up as follows: until the Chimera isn't hot steaming garbage and Militarum Tempestus receive a huge nerf, Steel Legion is not going to be the best choice.

The "ideal" formation for Steel Legion right now seems to be a bunch of Plasma packed into super-heavies with firing decks. For anything else you are probably better off with a different regiment.

Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.

That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.

Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.

Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.

I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.

What about vostroya? Seems like the idea behind em is to kite until their backs are against the wall? In theory they should be able to out-gunline other gunlines through sheer range, no?

gungo wrote:
Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.

That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.

Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.

Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.

I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.

Normal sentinels are unimpressive yes. Scout sentinels can be used to deny deepstrikes with their scout move and are cheap way to fill a brigade too.

gungo wrote:
Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.

Well I didn't realise that but it makes sense. I guess it could still be useful if you found a use for actual waves of infantry rather than having them on at the start. It is really just a way to have reserves, which is something that is rather limited in this edition.

 Fueli wrote:

gungo wrote:
Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.

That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.

Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.

Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.

I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.

Normal sentinels are unimpressive yes. Scout sentinels can be used to deny deepstrikes with their scout move and are cheap way to fill a brigade too.

Not only that but a model with 6 t5 wounds is nothing to scoff at either. It's the way you use them, areas denial and troop support seems the two best uses. I'd take heavy flamers on scout sentiels and deny area then move and burn me some gits, for armored sentinals simply mix them through out your line and use them as up armored heavy weapons that can assault and tie down things in a pinch.

Another disappointed SL player here. Im just going to run them as Tallarn for the time being. Not perfect, but at least Im not running "Immobile Bunkers - The List"... :/

I mean, it couldve been fine if the tank part of the doctrine was alright. As it is, the only thing SL have going for them is 18" rapid fire, which is not particularly different from the vostroyan RD, apart from theirs affecting almost all weapons... and even then, Vostroya isnt exactly lauded as the best RD.

(and in cruel irony, even the 18" RF is kind of useless to me - my usual opponent plays death guard...)

gungo wrote:
Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.

That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.

Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.

Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.

I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.

Where does it say send in the next wave costs points for the new unit? Last I heard other strategems worded the same way dont require reinforcement points, like the admech one.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Where does it say send in the next wave costs points for the new unit? Last I heard other strategems worded the same way dont require reinforcement points, like the admech one.

It's in the rules for Reinforcement Points.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

gungo wrote:
Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.

That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.

Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.

Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.

I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.

Where does it say send in the next wave costs points for the new unit? Last I heard other strategems worded the same way dont require reinforcement points, like the admech one.

The rules about reinforcement points are explicit that you have to spend reinforcement points to use abilities that "replace units that have been destroyed". The AdMech stratagem is completely different, in that it merely adds models to an existing unit. In any case, the AdMech faq says that you don't have to use reinforcement points to use the stratagem you're talking about.

 Tyr13 wrote:
As it is, the only thing SL have going for them is 18" rapid fire...

I don't know, their unique stratagem is alright. Sure, reroll 1s is covered by an order but you can do it in addition to another order, such as FRFSRF or BiD. Their unique order isn't great I guess but could be useful in the following turn to mount up and run. They did get a poor relic. I can see why Armageddon players would be disappointed but you can still do something. Dual flamer Chimeras would be the way to go if you don't want to bunker (which I also hate). That "ignore ap -1" rule does help you against what are considered the transport popping weapons, like heavy bolters and autocannons.

Definitely a disappointing regiments but not all hope is lost.

 Red Corsair wrote:

xmbk wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Why can't mauls and axes be taken using index points?

it would be a perfectly fine House Rule.

Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.

Not correct, index can be used for units that are not updated in the codex. You don't get to pick and choose which version you want based on availability of options etc. So currently any unit that has updated rules MUST use the codex meaning you cannot get axes and mauls on your units unless they are available on a unit like rough riders.

People continue to get this so wrong. Another example are demo charges, there gone, period. I don't get to ignore the more current codex entries in order to swap in wargear that is no longer available.

Do you have anything to back that up? The GW link I gave seems to support putting index weapons on codex units, provided the weapon isn't in the codex. It's not picking and choosing a version, you use the most recent version of each (unit and equipment).

ThePorcupine wrote:
I dunno. Maybe. I'm just trying to come up with a "good" steel legion list. Everyone and their grandmother has a cadian or a catachan list. It's not hard to make them competitive. The more obscure regiments though?

When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?

But I'm trying to not be so negative. There has to be SOME way to make mechanized guard viable. That's steel legion's whole thing!

I don't know if you know this, but a unit can only benefit from one order, so using the CP (which you'll have plenty of) means you can use a different order. Works amazingly well with your plasma concept so you can reroll wounds while protecting yourself from overheating. It's been working really well for me, so maybe avoid being negative and just try it out instead!

Lemondish wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
I dunno. Maybe. I'm just trying to come up with a "good" steel legion list. Everyone and their grandmother has a cadian or a catachan list. It's not hard to make them competitive. The more obscure regiments though?

When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?

But I'm trying to not be so negative. There has to be SOME way to make mechanized guard viable. That's steel legion's whole thing!

I don't know if you know this, but a unit can only benefit from one order, so using the CP (which you'll have plenty of) means you can use a different order. Works amazingly well with your plasma concept so you can reroll wounds while protecting yourself from overheating. It's been working really well for me, so maybe avoid being negative and just try it out instead!

But then again, Vostryans get +1 to hit stratagem which is quite much better than rerolls to 1's when using BS3+ plasmaguns. You dont even have to disembark to use it!

Only way to make SL stratagem decent would make it work for the whole army, not just one unit.

Lemondish wrote:
I don't know if you know this, but a unit can only benefit from one order, so using the CP (which you'll have plenty of) means you can use a different order. Works amazingly well with your plasma concept so you can reroll wounds while protecting yourself from overheating. It's been working really well for me, so maybe avoid being negative and just try it out instead!

Glad to hear it's been going well for you! Which configuration of transport have you been finding effective?

I've got some questions that might have been answered in the previous pages:

1) Has the Bullgryn change to their saves/shields been for better or worse? Or is the net effect the same overall? They went from a 2+ Save, to a 4+ but with a rule that states to add 2 to the roll. How would this work for -AP modifiers, that might make that 4+ a 7+?

2) Can a Militarum Tempestus Regiment take Auxilia/Flyers without having their regimental doctrine affected? There's some weird wording on page 132 about "Tempestus only Get a doctrine if every unit is Tempestus" and the auxilla section below stating exceptions. RAI seems to be obvious, but the RAW is wonky.

ajax_xaja wrote:
I've got some questions that might have been answered in the previous pages:

1) Has the Bullgryn change to their saves/shields been for better or worse? Or is the net effect the same overall? They went from a 2+ Save, to a 4+ but with a rule that states to add 2 to the roll. How would this work for -AP modifiers, that might make that 4+ a 7+?

2) Can a Militarum Tempestus Regiment take Auxilia/Flyers without having their regimental doctrine affected? There's some weird wording on page 132 about "Tempestus only Get a doctrine if every unit is Tempestus" and the auxilla section below stating exceptions. RAI seems to be obvious, but the RAW is wonky.

1. It should be net effect the same other than they are more efficient at receiving save buffs from other sources.

2. As people currently understand the rules as written and until its FAQ'd its a bit dodgy, an original Tempestus regiment has to be pure and cant have any non Tempestus unit, however you can make up your own regiment and assign them any of the doctrines which doesn't have the same limitation, and assign them the Tempestus doctrine. I think the rule intent was that they would be pure limited to the Scion units and you might have a detachment of them in your army with their doctrine, not field an entire army of that regiment with tanks and Auxillaries and other stuff.

Could you guys stop complaining about anything?
AM is currently the strongest army and you just got an extremely good codex. You don't need to wory, you will win the game.

 Stuxseth wrote:
Could you guys stop complaining about anything?
AM is currently the strongest army and you just got an extremely good codex. You don't need to wory, you will win the game.

It wasn't the nerf bat some were fearing and gave good army diversity options, but there still internal balance issues that could have been improved to provide a meaningful distinction to unit choices, and some things so far below the level of others that your hurting yourself to play them. When you see things like the Vehicle Augur Array that costs 10 points and gives you 1 hit dice reroll per game you wonder what they were thinking when you have so many other free options to do that.

WatcherZero wrote:

It wasn't the nerf bat some were fearing

That's for sure...

 Stuxseth wrote:

WatcherZero wrote:

It wasn't the nerf bat some were fearing

That's for sure...

The thing is, this thread started before 8th hit, when Guard were kind of a poor army. A lot of the old school Guard players have an underdog mentality, which persists to this day. Hell, Guard is a popular faction partially because they are the galaxy's underdog. Being powerful is new to some of us oldies. (-:

If you think being guard is being an underdog then you missed 5th edition .