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 Polonius wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about Creed...

A few points:

- GS only gives you the chance of a point for every stratagem. A small thing I guess, but something that needs to be calculated for if you use a lot of 2-3pt stratagems.
- The Superior Tactical Training warlord trait is actually pretty good. You can use the 4+ order on a conscript squad, using an order that was a 4+ anyway instead of downgrading a 100% order to a 4+.
- Kell is not that expensive. He is pretty much a powerfist/standard platoon commander with bodyguard abilities. Could keep Creed alive when he would otherwise die, saving you a slay the warlord.

Yeah, I'm not saying Creed is super good or anything but just a couple of points I noticed in his favour.

ajax_xaja wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.

You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..

And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.

Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.

If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.

Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.

On the topic of melta-guns vs plasma I have done a big comparison in Polonius tactical topic here :
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730110.page#9460349
Plasma stands out as the best overall option provided you add tempestor prime for the critical re-rolls of but melta is still good at hunting big targets.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about Creed...

A few points:

- GS only gives you the chance of a point for every stratagem. A small thing I guess, but something that needs to be calculated for if you use a lot of 2-3pt stratagems.

I thought GS works like the Ultramarines warlord trait and works per CP used, not stratagem.

The relic however is the one that lets you roll 1 dice per enemy stratagem regardless of the cost. Not sure if this works on CP used before the game or during deployment though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:

I'm absolutely going to convert up a unit of 10! Only question is, what to use?

I'm thinking a box of skitarri torsos, on cadian legs, wielding some old Empire swords and shields I've got in my bits box with Empire Knight heads (yay for bits box!)

I'm planning to use Skitarii torsos and probably Scion legs (test kits should be arriving this week) so i'll let you know how it goes!

I'm not too bothered about the Admech symbol either, as it fits in with my overall Imperial theme.

Kdash wrote:
I thought GS works like the Ultramarines warlord trait and works per CP used, not stratagem.

You are correct! I was getting confused with Kurov's Aquilla.

Quick Questions about Regiments and "Other Books"...

Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?

"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine"
"If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"

I'm guessing yes???

Can I give my Index units (Rough Riders) Regimental Doctrines <CATACHAN>?

I'm guessing yes??

Elysian (aka TALLARN RD) units with their orders and DKOK/Rough Riders (aka CATACHAN RD) would be pretty strong I think

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Quick Questions about Regiments and "Other Books"...

Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?

"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine"
"If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"

I'm guessing yes???

By RAW? yes. But this has been already been answered by GW in FB and even by designer in Twitter. Answer is:

But you are free to use Rough Riders with regimental doctrines. Do note that catachan doctrines affect either INFANTRY or VEHICLES so RRs dont get anything out of them.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm glad I can combine infantry squads now, even though it costs 1CP for every 20 I want to put together. Never liked conscripts as a unit so I'll likely just powerblob it up with regular infantry squads.

It is only once per turn though, like all stratagems. It is not designed to build an army around, just save the special weapons from depleted squads and lower the kill points you give away.

One thing I was thinking about was this: do you have to pick relics as part of your list, or as part of deployment? It says before the battle, but at what point is that? At what point do you use the +relic stratagem? Do you take one relic in your list, but can use the stratagem and pick another relic when deploying? Mainly, I am wondering this because if you know your opponent before you pick relics, it allows you to tailor your list for the enemy in an allowed way, not the "this list is for vehicles" way. For example, you could pick the lost Cadia relic against chaos, but opt for something like a different sword if not, or save the CP entirely.

I assumed for tournament play you state your original relic on your army sheet at the start of the tournament. The 1CP stratagem would then be used after units have been placed and before turn 1 a la orbital bombardment. I'm going to be using Kurovs Aquila (is this an auto take?) as my primary relic all the time anyway but I'm trying to fit in a Cadian platoon commander into my otherwise all armoured Cadian Spearhead detachment so if I end up playing Chaos I'll spend the 1CP and give him the relic of Cadia. I might even recoup the CP thanks to Kurovs Aquila.

Going full inception but could I use 1 CP to reroll the 5+ required to recoup the Original 1CP, then try and roll a 5+ for that Stratagems CP...Statistically its not worth while but....

I'm pretty sure Kurov's Aquilla is an auto-take, or at least the default unless you have a damn good reason. There are still armies out there with very minimal CPs, so the return won't be high. Still though, even one "free" CP makes it worth it, right?

The laurels are probably the other heavy hitter. What makes them great is that you can put multiple orders on a single unit. It only works half the time, and there aren't a ton of IG units that really get a lot out of double orders. Maybe a combined squad, or a scion squad. Scions wouldn't mind Take Aim and Elimination protocol. the problem there, of course, is that scions usually only shoot once.

Teh relic of lost cadia is also really good, especially against chaos. Even normally, the reroll ones to wound (and reroll hits for units that moved) is a huge buff, especially since it's a 12" bubble.

Teh Dagger is a bit off, as it mostly replicates what scions (or assassins) do, but be mindful of times when this could be devestating.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm pretty sure Kurov's Aquilla is an auto-take, or at least the default unless you have a damn good reason. There are still armies out there with very minimal CPs, so the return won't be high. Still though, even one "free" CP makes it worth it, right?

The laurels are probably the other heavy hitter. What makes them great is that you can put multiple orders on a single unit. It only works half the time, and there aren't a ton of IG units that really get a lot out of double orders. Maybe a combined squad, or a scion squad. Scions wouldn't mind Take Aim and Elimination protocol. the problem there, of course, is that scions usually only shoot once.

Teh relic of lost cadia is also really good, especially against chaos. Even normally, the reroll ones to wound (and reroll hits for units that moved) is a huge buff, especially since it's a 12" bubble.

Teh Dagger is a bit off, as it mostly replicates what scions (or assassins) do, but be mindful of times when this could be devestating.

I think the Aquilla will always be taken, at least initially, but i'm not sure it's going to provide much overall. Will have to wait and see though.

The dagger for me is more of a support item. Nice easy way to keep a 10 man squad and commander off the table for 2 turns before grabbing an objective.

redbeast001 wrote:
I don't know if this has been stated yet. But Dagger Relic on Punisher w/ HB Tank Commander with a Bullgryn Melee squad turn 1 Reserve deploy and assault. Thoughts?

I liked the idea but the infantry need to have the same <Regiment> name as the HQ. Bullgryns don't have a <Regiment> keyword option. (and you can't give the tank commander <militarum auxilla> regiment)

It is a good way to deepstrike a tank (commander) if you're not Tallarn. Hadn't thought of that. If he was <Catachan> you could have a 10 man S4 squad closer to your enemy than they'd like.

A lot of people are keen on using the Ambush stratagem to get punishers in range (either on their own or in a units of 3). I haven't seen anyone suggesting using Hellhounds or Devil Dogs. Getting them within 9" undamaged really makes the inferno cannon or Melta cannons hurt.

I initially was firmly in the Cadian Spearhead Detachment camp (Pask, a platoon commander, a Hydra and 2 LRBT) to compliment my Catachan Brigade but a Tallarn Outrider detachment (company commander 2 x Hellhounds, 1 x Devil Dogs, 5 x rough riders and a Deathstrike) is "only" 40 pts more and deepstriking those 4 Hellhound equivalents turn 1 within range then bringing the deathstrike on turn 4 to shoot is damned appealing!

CaptainO wrote:

redbeast001 wrote:
I don't know if this has been stated yet. But Dagger Relic on Punisher w/ HB Tank Commander with a Bullgryn Melee squad turn 1 Reserve deploy and assault. Thoughts?

I liked the idea but the infantry need to have the same <Regiment> name as the HQ. Bullgryns don't have a <Regiment> keyword option. (and you can't give the tank commander <militarum auxilla> regiment)

It is a good way to deepstrike a tank (commander) if you're not Tallarn. Hadn't thought of that. If he was <Catachan> you could have a 10 man S4 squad closer to your enemy than they'd like.

A lot of people are keen on using the Ambush stratagem to get punishers in range (either on their own or in a units of 3). I haven't seen anyone suggesting using Hellhounds or Devil Dogs. Getting them within 9" undamaged really makes the inferno cannon or Melta cannons hurt.

I initially was firmly in the Cadian Spearhead Detachment camp (Pask, a platoon commander, a Hydra and 2 LRBT) to compliment my Catachan Brigade but a Tallarn Outrider detachment (company commander 2 x Hellhounds, 1 x Devil Dogs, 5 x rough riders and a Deathstrike) is "only" 40 pts more and deepstriking those 4 Hellhound equivalents turn 1 within range then bringing the deathstrike on turn 4 to shoot is damned appealing!

They only have to have the same <Regiment> keyword if your officer has a <Regiment> in the first place.

Give it to a Lord Commissar.

You are correct. I was overly focused on deep striking that Tank.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm pretty sure Kurov's Aquilla is an auto-take, or at least the default unless you have a damn good reason. There are still armies out there with very minimal CPs, so the return won't be high. Still though, even one "free" CP makes it worth it, right?

I like the relic power sword, but I do melee guard, and I'm going to probably have three relics every game I play.

In an effort to get that sweet sweet +1 when rolling for who goes first I think I'd be able to get my 103 model army down to 10 drops. (4xunits of rough riders, heavy use of Ambush Stratagem and some scions) This would involve starting 10 of my independent characters in a chimera (the definition of all my eggs)

On average how many drops have peoples opponents had for a 2000pt army?

Also how dodgy is putting 10 independent characters in a chimera (they would get out turn 1, which with 10 drops I'd hope to get first turn) Said Chimera would be hidden as much as possible and I'd be making heavy use of the Take cover stratagem if I didn't get first turn. Thoughts?

The Dagger of *mumblemumbleshawn* is a hilarious way to bring a Commissar and Bullgryns around with the Tallarn stratagems actually. Use the stratagem for 3 whatevers, then use the dagger for some bullgryns and a commissar to keep the whatevers in line. LOL!

 daedalus wrote:
I like the relic power sword, but I do melee guard, and I'm going to probably have three relics every game I play.

Yeah, I can definitely see myself doing the same. There are a lot of fun-looking relics in the book and I think it's a nice way to add a bit of extra flavour to characters.

I'm curious though - do you use this stratagem before or after doing Warlord traits?

Could you, for example, pick the Grand Strategist Warlord Trait and then use the extra-relic Stratagem, potentially getting some of those command points back?

Why would you give to Commissar thou? Use psyker or a priest since Bullgryns have synergies with those.

Blightstar wrote:
Why would you give to Commissar thou? Use psyker or a priest since Bullgryns have synergies with those.

That works too!

I just think that if your 3 "whatevers" are conscripts you might want the commissar to go with them.

 vipoid wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I like the relic power sword, but I do melee guard, and I'm going to probably have three relics every game I play.

Yeah, I can definitely see myself doing the same. There are a lot of fun-looking relics in the book and I think it's a nice way to add a bit of extra flavour to characters.

I'm curious though - do you use this stratagem before or after doing Warlord traits?

Could you, for example, pick the Grand Strategist Warlord Trait and then use the extra-relic Stratagem, potentially getting some of those command points back?

It says the CP refund effect is while your "warlord is on the battlefield," so I doubt it. You could get the 2 cp back for preliminary bombardment though since that's after setup. Any CP spent while the warlord is in a transport would also not be eligible unless my understanding of transport rules is borked.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.

You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..

And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.

Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.

If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.

Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.

On the topic of melta-guns vs plasma I have done a big comparison in Polonius tactical topic here :
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730110.page#9460349
Plasma stands out as the best overall option provided you add tempestor prime for the critical re-rolls of but melta is still good at hunting big targets.

Awesome analysis! Sounds like I'll have to pepper in some meltas for "spot treating" then. Shame that Plasmas are so ubiquitous now, even with the point increase.

Anything similar to this kind of analysis for the Taurox Prime, w/ missile launchers vs. battle cannon vs. gatling? Really liking the missile launcher's flexibility, but it's expensive as heck...

Taurox Prime doesn’t really have a role anymore after the Russ buff. I did the points spent per wound caused chart for every unit and weapon option in the new book. It still does extraordinarily well vs GEQ and well against everything short of T8 3+ multiwound, but it suffers from doctrine disadvantage among other things like range, negative modifiers from movement (and it needs to move due to awful range) and not benefiting from orders in the same degree. Even in the optimal situations where range or movement issues are ignored and we act like doctrines and orders don’t exist, there are options that pull same and better numbers. Finally, in a meta where some people spam Gatlings and Hurricane Bolters on Guilliman’s Stormravens, it’s an advantage to have T8.

I say that with a degree of sadness, since I had 7 painted for me based on the index rules.

 Therion wrote:
Taurox Prime doesn’t really have a role anymore after the Russ buff. I did the points spent per wound caused chart for every unit and weapon option in the new book. It still does extraordinarily well vs GEQ and well against everything short of T8 3+ multiwound, but it suffers from doctrine disadvantage among other things like range, negative modifiers from movement (and it needs to move due to awful range) and not benefiting from orders in the same degree. Even in the optimal situations where range or movement issues are ignored and we act like doctrines and orders don’t exist, there are options that pull same and better numbers. Finally, in a meta where some people spam Gatlings and Hurricane Bolters on Guilliman’s Stormravens, it’s an advantage to have T8.

I say that with a degree of sadness, since I had 7 painted for me based on the index rules.

Ah, guess I should have mentioned that I'm playing pure tempestus for the most part. I am envious about the Leman Russ' being so great now, but I've gotta stick to my elite stormtroopers. Curious about which weapon loadouts you decided to go with for your 7 though, what'd they end up being?

ajax_xaja wrote:
Ah, guess I should have mentioned that I'm playing pure tempestus for the most part. I am envious about the Leman Russ' being so great now, but I've gotta stick to my elite stormtroopers. Curious about which weapon loadouts you decided to go with for your 7 though, what'd they end up being?

The long range fire support build Taurox Prime (AC, ML) got a buff, but also got 5 points more expensive. It's fairly easy for something to be within 24" and thus getting the Extra shots on 6's.

One the other hand it is still kibble for imperial knights thanks to T6 making it more susceptible to Gatling cannons, and still feels to anti-synergize with scions on account of the 50% must start on the board rule, and the Taurox not really being something good at standing up to enemy fire power.


The S4 spam Taurox Prime (Gatling, SB, HSVG) got 2 points cheaper, and also a bit better. And it was seemingly the superior build before (Frequently showing up in top tourney lists). I'd say the Russ's buffs definitely make it a better source of fire power, and LR's have more staying power thanks to extra wounds and T8. But the Taurox Prime got better overall, and if it worked for you before, it will still work, but a Lemun Russ definitely seems to synergize better with Scions.

What are peoples thoughts on adding;
- Inquisitor
- Culexus
- Callidus
- Eversor

As a bolt of to any army, a 0.617 Mortarion point cost add-on.

ajax_xaja wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.

You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..

And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.

Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.

If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.

Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.

Between the two I'd go Battle cannon. But I think if you're playing straight MT, you need to bring a Valkyrie (although I don't have one yet so this is pure conjecture). It can give you late game mobility because its a flying brick that nobody is scared of, and yet it does come with a couple heavy weapons. The bad thing about MT with Valkyries is sure you're wasting 2 points per man on grav chutes you're not using, but the nice thing is now you can drop and get into short range for your melta or hotshot lasguns.

That said I don't think the Missile Launchers are bad choice at all either. I'd just rather have a couple tauroxes with gatlin guns and HSVGs, and then a couple more with Battlecannon and autocannon instead. Send the gatlin guns charging forward to support your grav chute troops, and keep the battlecannon and autocannon at range to plink away at BS3+.

Blightstar wrote:

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Quick Questions about Regiments and "Other Books"...

Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?

"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine"
"If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"

I'm guessing yes???

By RAW? yes. But this has been already been answered by GW in FB and even by designer in Twitter. Answer is:

Spoiler:

no.

But you are free to use Rough Riders with regimental doctrines. Do note that catachan doctrines affect either INFANTRY or VEHICLES so RRs dont get anything out of them.

What? Even RAW, this should be a no. They lack the <REGIMENT> key word. They only have the ELYSIAN and DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keywords.

Suzuteo wrote:

Blightstar wrote:

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Quick Questions about Regiments and "Other Books"...

Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?

"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine"
"If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"

I'm guessing yes???

By RAW? yes. But this has been already been answered by GW in FB and even by designer in Twitter. Answer is:

Spoiler:

no.

But you are free to use Rough Riders with regimental doctrines. Do note that catachan doctrines affect either INFANTRY or VEHICLES so RRs dont get anything out of them.

What? Even RAW, this should be a no. They lack the <REGIMENT> key word. They only have the ELYSIAN and DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keywords.

It's a bit weird how it's defined. The literal wording is "If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army". What if I would choose the regiment DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG? They don't have a doctrine, and by just following this, would get one. Of course, this leads to other problems (as to whether or not DKOK is a regiment ruleswise, if they can apply rules from the codex and other things, if only the <REGIMENT> units they can take [Tank Commanders, Earthshaker Carriages etc.] would get all benefits...). I wouldn't use the doctrines in the book right now because of these issues, and wait for some FAQ or update.

Also, FWIW, I probably also wouldn't listen to designers on twitter and apply what they say, and wait for FAQ's anyway.

My army's core has been a double brigade:

3 company commanders
3 primaris psykers
3 commissars
3 astropaths
10 infantry squads with plasma gun
2 30-man conscript squads
6 rough riders squads with double plasma gun
10 heavy weapons squads with lascannon and 2 mortars.

It leaves about 150pts left over at 2K. Enough to bolt on some scions or Celestine or some snipers.

My question is, what do I spend all the command points on? I have 21, then will be taking kurovs Aquila and the grand strategist warlord trait, so I should basically NEVER run short. My thoughts at the moment are: re-drawing Maelstrom cards, re rolling dice and buying relics.

I'm not sure whether to go cadian or tallarn tactics - both have their advantages and unique stratagems. Any help?

 DoomMouse wrote:
My question is, what do I spend all the command points on? I have 21, then will be taking kurovs Aquila and the grand strategist warlord trait, so I should basically NEVER run short. My thoughts at the moment are: re-drawing Maelstrom cards, re rolling dice and buying relics.

You should have no problem spending all of those CP. Consider these:

- Fire on my position. If you take a few voxes, this can really damage enemy elite infantry that have charged you. 3cp is quite expensive but you could get some use out of it if you have the voxes.
- Consolidate squads. Only once per turn but could save you a few kill points.
- Take cover. The best one. You should probably use this every enemy shooting phase, maybe even in melee if it isn't just going to be a walk over.
- Preliminary bombardment. I can see this working against large armies so you get lots of rolls. Not great but still a bit extra damage.
- Grenadiers. You can get a nice amount of damage out of a 10 man squad.
- Inspired tactics. Sometimes you just need that extra order and the officer is dead or out of position.
- Fight to the death. Not really great but I guess could be useful to save some objective grabbers who have no commissar.
- Vengeance for Cadia. Great damage increase against chaos.

As for unique ones:

- Ambush. Pretty much your best option for moving across the board. An officer and two infantry squads may not be great if used on turn 1 but are cheap enough that you can leave them off until turn 3-4, when they can have a great effect.
- Overlapping fields of fire. Great for when something big needs to die.

As for Tallarn vs Cadian, it really comes down to if you want to move or not. Cadians make a great gunline but get nothing when they want to move about. Tallarn are the opposite, having great speed but nothing when staying still. It depends on play style really.

Cheers, that's a really good synopsis. I don't have the codex (yet!) but I'd heard of most of those. I guess when taken together we have quite a lot of ways to spend CPs haha.

- I'd not heard of fire on my position. Sounds expensive if you need voxes and, is it any good?
- What would be good to use take cover on? Conscripts? I guess +1 save is good, but seems a lot stronger on super heavies and the like. I mean it sounds good, but wouldn't have called it the best?
- Preliminary bombardment sounds great depending on the opponent.
- grenadiers sounds good on paper, but isn't FRFSRF just flat out better on infantry squads or conscripts? That'd make inspired tactics more handy.
- vengeance for cadia sounds awesome Vs chaos

The cadia/tallarn debate I'm having is really close. Extra movement is more interesting and potentially very powerful, and the ambush stratagem is lovely, but the cadian doctrine combined with 'overlapping fields' is an insane buff to my HWTs. It's a really tough choice! They'll both be fun to try out