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I used melta vets in a Valkyrie and they have to be dropped >9" away from enemy units, however, they may still move, advance, etc as normal. So yes, they can move within melta range.

 DoomMouse wrote:
This wasn't entirely what I was expecting. Some sensible stuff, but most of our strongest stuff still seems weirdly intact! I thought they'd use chapter approved to reign in AM a bit so we're not so far above the rest of the armies...

- Conscripts before the other nerfs might have been comparable to infantry squad costs. With them, they're just flat worse. Regular infantry should have gone to 5pts if conscripts went to 4. It'd have been a bit tough, but I wouldn't have been against it. If conscripts are 4pts, they could undo the commissar nerf for us at least
- Can't believe they didn't bump up elysians by at least a point (if not two)
- 7pt plasma guns still make all other special weapons redundant in my opinion. Melta definitely didn't need a price hike.
- Surprised they didn't bump the cost of russes a little. I'd only lost two games of 8th 40k with my competitive foot guard list, and they were both to russ-heavy mech guard
- Astropaths and psyker nerf seems fair. It's not going to stop me spamming smite though, so maybe they could have gone further. Astropaths will still have a role using psychic maelstrom/nightshroud/psychic barrier for cheap though, as well as removing cover.
- Autocannon buff seems reasonable. Surprised they kept mortars so nice and cheap.
- I would only have bumped up ratlings to 8pts per model personally
- Manticore and taurox prime nerfs look appropriate.

I made a similar point in the thread where they're talking about the supposed reveal that rules tweaks will go to twice a year instead of a week after every codex drop. Guardsmen were absolutely worth 5pts a model and conscripts 4pts per model with the old commissar rules, but with the commissar nerf it lowers the value of all other infantry by a fair amount. Very small changes can have massive impacts in this game and hopefully GW will start to figure that out. I mean hey at least they're trying but I don't understand why conscripts went up to 4pts per model yet apparently nobody took a look at the shadowsword for example and thought "huh, maybe this is a little cheap for what it does." GW obviously has no experience with this kind of tight rules writing so I'd imagine that if they're going to truly improve it's going to take time. We could tell that from the get go, most problem units get hit so hard they go from OP to useless overnight, or sometimes get such a small slap on the wrist they remain unchanged. At least they didn't wreck the entire army or not change anything, I was bracing for 6pt infantry squads and 200pt leman russes given how GW reacted to previous complaints about IG.

At least autocannons got a small but fair decrease. I have about 15 of the things from previous editions and it's nice to see that they're a bit better value. They're still not super competitive but at least I'm getting some sort of discount.

The taurox was a little bit cheap for what it did, I think a 10pt raise for the base variant was a fair price increase, especially since with the autocannon discount it really only went up like 5 points.

Personally I'm not seeing the freaking out over astropaths being 30pts, they're still a decent value at that price point just for ignoring cover alone, not to mention a small chance of smite or a regular psychic power or even the ability to cast other powers. At least Primaris Psykers didn't get the Malefic lord treatment.

I'm still trying to figure out what on earth they were smoking with the melta changes though. I mean I was having decent success with them in vet squads in transports but I wasn't for a second pretending they were somehow blatantly superior to plasma at a point more. At 17pts per gun unless there's some big rules shakeup we're not aware of around the corner I don't see melta being that powerful compared to other options. Is this bringing it into line with what space marines pay or something?

Overall it wasn't a terrible update, IG didn't get absolutely destroyed overnight and I know the Admech are decently happy about their update, so as a whole it wasn't a terrible first crack, but GW definitely has room to improve and keep tightening up the ruleset. One of the big problems with this game is the stupid amount of variety and variables they have to account for. I don't think anyone in the world could make this game perfectly 100% balanced and keep half the flavor and variety we have. We can get close obviously, but I don't blame GW for needing some time to figure all this out.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I used melta vets in a Valkyrie and they have to be dropped >9" away from enemy units, however, they may still move, advance, etc as normal. So yes, they can move within melta range.

Aah guess i got it wrong. Though disembark includes movement for that turn and grav chute requires staying out of 9". Well good for me on tuesday with flamers

So... they lowered the Artemia Pattern Hellhound's cost to match the standard Hellhound, but forgot to make the turret weapon cost points. So it's now 20 points too cheap, have fun with that before they notice it and FAQ it.

Pretty sure the Artemia HH is meant to work like that, since it only has 2D6 pick the highest hits compared to the standard hellhounds flat 2D6 hits. They had to lower the price because it went from being slightly better than the standard model to significantly worse.

 Tyr13 wrote:
Pretty sure the Artemia HH is meant to work like that, since it only has 2D6 pick the highest hits compared to the standard hellhounds flat 2D6 hits. They had to lower the price because it went from being slightly better than the standard model to significantly worse.

The Artemia Pattern still does 2 damage per hit, while the codex Hellhound only does 1. The Artemia Pattern also gets to roll two dice and pick the highest to determine hits, so it actually averages more damage than the Hellhound against anything with more than one wound.

I would be very surprised if the Artemia Inferno Cannon being 0 points was intentional.

Yeah, that seems like an oversight... it's not quite as good as a stock hound, but not 20 points worse. As is, it's now a default choice for a fire ship (where you gun for mortal wounds when wrecked).

I still like catachan hounds, but in any other regiment gunning for a brigade, it becomes a cheap, effective choice, especially since you can just run the oop kit and most people won't care. With heavy bolter, it's only 36 points more than a multilaser scout.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So my Chapter approved hot takes:

The good:
- A lot of our best stuff was untouched. Superheavies, Russes, Bassies, heavy weapons, and hellhounds all were left alone.
-Autocannons move from overcosted and niche to just plain niche.
-I guess powerfists are more viable?

The expected:
-Psykers got a points hike, with the Astropath now 2/3 the cost of a primaris. Probably good for overall balance, but even at the new cost, Primaris Psykers are great, just less spammable.
-Manticores got a slight hike, as did Taurox Primes

The Bad:
-Our FW selections got mauled pretty bad.
- The conscript nerf is complete
-Ratlings went from "intriguing source of mortal wounds" to "pass."
-I hope everybody likes plasma, because that's the only really viable special weapon in most applications.
-Is it just me, or were the command rods not the broken element of scions?

The ugly
-Why are earthshaker carriages more than a basilisk?
- Vanquishers went down five points. they could go down TO give points, and still suck.
-Weren't Wyverns borderline already? It's now essentially the same cost as three mortar squads!

All in all, I'm fine with most of the changes, except the melta price hike (if anything, BS3+ should be 12 and Bs4+ 8) while ignoring the woefully overcosted grenade launcher and even flamer (sad but true).

I don't think it's all doom and gloom on the Forge World front. The Leman Russ Conqueror and Annihilator got the 10 point discount like the other russes, solidifying them as probably the best options.

The good Vulture options are basically untouched. The Punisher Vulture is still a measly 160.

The carriages being more expensive than the chimera chassis versions is... bizarre. But not everything got hit with the nerfhammer.

KestrelM1 wrote:
The good Vulture options are basically untouched. The Punisher Vulture is still a measly 160.

Eh, I liked the AT-spec Vulture, it was basically a flying las-predator, and it's a cool model. Now it's only 10 points cheaper than a Vendetta.

IMO, this is a classic case of GW getting the problem wrong. When hellstrikes lost once-per-game in the change of editions, FW forgot to update things like the Thunderbolt to match the Valkyrie (i.e. one set of missles). Instead of fixing the root cause they've made an ugly patch with annoying side effects.

KestrelM1 wrote:
I don't think it's all doom and gloom on the Forge World front. The Leman Russ Conqueror and Annihilator got the 10 point discount like the other russes, solidifying them as probably the best options.

The good Vulture options are basically untouched. The Punisher Vulture is still a measly 160.

The carriages being more expensive than the chimera chassis versions is... bizarre. But not everything got hit with the nerfhammer.

10 point discount? I'm not getting it. I'm looking at the index and the Conqueror used to cost 110. Gun for 25 and HB for 8. 143 total which is cheaper than a regular Russ from the codex.

In the Chapter Approved the Conqueror went up 12 points so it matches the Codex Russ. I have no problem with that, since it's the best variant.

I do have a problem with many of the other nerfs though.

For example, they should revert the Commissar errata now. Commissars are the only thing that could justify Conscripts costing 4ppm.

Now I have to watch everyone buy and win tournaments with 30 or 60 Dark Reapers for 6 months before GW raises them from 25 to 45 points each.

The Conquereor was previously 132 base via the FAQ, to match the old Index price. I don't blame you for that mistake, though, as having to check 3 sources for the correct points cost for a model is quite a chore.

Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts

 DoomMouse wrote:
Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts

Sort of? I've cooled on heavy weapons in infantry squads overall, but I think the price drop allows you to take a squad with an AC and use as an objective grabber/long range plinker.

I'm far more excited for ACs on sentinels (two points more than multilasers!) or in heavy weapon squads, where they run 54pts for three, but won't draw a ton of enemy attention.

Yeah they seem better suited for sentinels and HWSs now. I just don't think they're worth it in infantry squads. Use those bodies to hide Las Cannons.

I have 3 converted Chimera with autocannon turrets and I'd probably prefer Heavy Bolters but autocannons look too cool.

So, Guardsmen of dakka: Do you think that Conscripts would have made sense at 4 points a model without the nerf to orders and summary execution?

pismakron wrote:
So, Guardsmen of dakka: Do you think that Conscripts would have made sense at 4 points a model without the nerf to orders and summary execution?

IMHO... yes. With full orders and Summary Execution, they are actually capable of offensive action while staying incredibly durable.

Really, GW actually just figured out what most IG players hadn't: there were multiple ways to still have fearless conscripts! You had the valhallan relic pistol, as well as the fearless psychic power. and that's not counting the Insane Bravery strategem, even though IG are always swimming in CPs.

Looking at the leaked CA stuff, my overall opinion is that GW really doesn't have any idea what they'e doing, there's not a whole lot of methodology behind the changes, and not much thought as to how the units actually function on a table. I don't think they're going to radically change the balance of IG armies or their competitive ranking, but will narrow the types of units we see. Some of the changes don't bother me, I'm fine with the Primaris Psyker going up a bit, but a lot of them seem really poorly thought out. Lots of stuff that needed help didn't get it (Exterminator, Vanquisher didn't get nearly enough, etc), stuff that nobody thought was an issue got hit with the nerf bat (Tempestus Command Rods, Meltaguns and Ratlings...really?) With the Manticore price increase, looking at my competitive choices, I'm increasingly wondering why I couldn't just run an LRBT with a Battlecannon instead. Ok, it needs LoS, but that's heavily table dependent, it's harder to kill, more mobile, if taken barebones is only 9pts more than a barebones Manticore, has very capable secondary weapons options, and can be given Orders, while matching firepower output against anything but T5 and T8-10 targets (which aren't particularly big concerns).

Really, it looks like they really want people to be using a couple Russ variants, Infantry Squads, and Plasma Deep Strike Scions. My prediction is that most lists we're going to see will revolve around these things, with the splash of artillery or hellhound. Transports I think are going to be even rarer in IG armies, mechanized lists are basically going to be nonexistent for 8E.

pismakron wrote:
So, Guardsmen of dakka: Do you think that Conscripts would have made sense at 4 points a model without the nerf to orders and summary execution?

Hrm, personally? No. They only really worked when provided with lots of support and played in a certain manner, but utilized in any other manner, or in anything but maximum squad size, the basic Infantry Squad was superior, and still wasn't awful at being a meatshield.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts

I don't think so. I've got a bunch of Autocannon heavy weapons teams from previous editions, but the changeover to 8E really hit them hard. For the difference in price (and the platform they're carried by), the Heavy Bolter feels like a much more appropriate weapon, and if you need the extra hitting power you're probably better off saving those points for something that'll actually do the job well. If you have a handful of points left over, it wouldn't hurt to take the AC, but the AC and HB should be the same cost, there's just not enough advantage to make it worth taking over a heavy bolter or not just biting the bullet to take a Lascannon. They worked much better in 5E-7E (where they also were usually the same price as a heavy bolter).

Open's up a lot of design space

So i finally made the jump and began collecting an Astra Militarum army.

I'm playing at 1500pts at the moment and the plan was to build a brigade containing 3 Leman russ, infantry and some sentinels (i am mainly playing maelstrom, but i'll try out eternal missions soon).



So the theory is (and it's all i have as i have zero experience playing AM):
* Use the ambush stratagem on Pask with 2 infantry squad
* Create a frontline/bubble with the 4 remaining infantry, getting their orders from the nearby company commanders
* Put a leman russ on each flank, the one with the lascannon getting the protection of the astropath (yes i love the punisher, and yes i'm considering other guns like the executionner)
* Use the plasma tempestus command squads as a "blow this s*** up now" button
* Put the heavy weapon team on my backline (objective) (a bit of a bait for ennemy deep strike unit)
* Use the sentinels as my backline, denying deep strike (and with the tallern doctrine and lascannons, they should be able to help blow some stuff up)
** The plan is to advance with all my army except the heavy weapon team and pressure my opponent with the infantry and the LR frontline while flanking him with Pask and some infantry

Anyway as i have 0 experience i don't know yet the weaknesses of this strategy and list.

One question i do have though is if i have enough antitank firepower. In theory i have, 8 lascannons, 6 spare hunter killer missiles, the plasma deep strike and Pask (punisher, lascannons, 2 multimeltas hitting on 2+).

Anyway i'm super happy to finally get to play AM (a bit of a child's dream i guess), but if you guys have any suggestion or can point out something i overlooked while building this list i would gladly take it

Cheers

You need to be careful with regiments and keywords. Only Cadians can take Pask and only Tallarn vehicles can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty.

The Ambush stratagem is Tallarn only as well, theres the similar Relic but again Pask is named and you cant give relics to named characters.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Do you reckon autocannons will be worth taking on infantry squads now? They're better but I'm not sure if they compete with lascannons or heavy bolters even at 12pts

They're better but there are definitely more efficient options now. Basically it just means that if you have models armed with autocannons you're going to be punished slightly less for taking them, since it can somewhat assist in almost any situation, but there are only a couple of very fringe scenarios where it's the ideal choice. I actually really like autocannons, but my meta is so tailored to them being effective it's ridiculous. I would say 75% of my games are against either Primaris Marines, Terminators, or some other 2 wound infantry. This means that Autocannons hit way harder than you'd expect and are essentially just long range plasma guns for me, minus the AP. In almost any other situation they would be middling at best, I just have so many targets that work for them and so many autocannons that weight of fire overcomes the issues I face. I also mainly have them modeled as Cadians so with native rerolls they tend to put out very consistent damage.

The big 3 heavy weapons remain the mortar, heavy bolter, and lascannon. The rest are perfectly serviceable, they're just not anything jaw dropping. There is no "grenade Launcher" among the heavy weapons anymore at least, even missile launchers aren't completely terrible, it's just I'd rather have a lascannon 99% of the time.

I also agree that with the recent changes the Leman Russ has come into its own as probably the best of the heavy support options, aside from maybe baneblade variants. I have been running infantry squad spam, stormtroopers, and Leman Russes and doing very well. I essentially build my lists on a principle of 3's with a platoon's worth of infantry, a platoons worth of stormtroopers, and a tank or two, then just multiply that as I go up in points. Many opponents don't really seem to know how to deal with it. If you go after the tanks the infantry squads get in the way and the stormtroopers land behind. If you go after the infantry the tanks are unmolested and the stormtroopers pick you off in the open. And if you spread out to deny stormtrooper drops now you're spread out against IG and have lost your sole advantage, meaning I can get in a proper slugging match and destroy them in detail. If you're going to take tanks with infantry guard, I would heavily recommend you invest in the basic LRBT. That 72" range can come in handy since every heavy weapon is 48" at best and most of your shooting will be 24" or less. Executioners can work well also, but I tend to take less of them and use them as a counterattack element to plug a gap. With their drastically shorter range they end up being more of a defensive tool than an offensive one.

With the price hikes on Hellstrike missiles, is the Marauder Destroyer still better than the Marauder Bomber?

Was hoping for a price cut on grenade launchers to make them worth it. Have 4 Tallarn grenade launcher models that i want to use WYSWYG. 3pts makes them a good cheap addition to infantry squads.

Conscript pt increase is unnecessary, and smells like a already planned change before the Commisar FAQ nerf. It is what it is though. Guess GW is going in extra on the tissues for the Tears this edition.

Honestly, even though they missed the ball on somethings ( Vanquisher Cannon rework, other LRBT variants, Ratlings point increase?) it could have been much much worse though. Conscripts costing as much as regular guard is silly though, as is the Earthshaker platform/basilisk debacle.

So how about dem sentinel power lifters eh? They seem so silly they might just work.

So how are you guys handling all the Eldar and Tyranid minus to hit roll shenanigans?

So I didn't sleep very well last night and in a stupor it came to me - these are all fluffy changes!
I mean, a conscript might be worse in every way than a guardsman, but to the departmento munitorum, that's still a lasgun, flak armour, and frag grenades to supply, and the meat filling to maintain and ship around. Plus lots of generals treat all troops as cannon fodder whatever their training was.

It all makes sense* now!





*when sleep deprived

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
With the price hikes on Hellstrike missiles, is the Marauder Destroyer still better than the Marauder Bomber?

The hellstrike cluster is still paying 41/72~pts per hp on LRs with/without the Master of the Fleet bonus. they were getting 27/48 pts per average before which was something extraordinary. The bomber is still relying on too many factors to get its points back; especially since the bombs do better on infantry - which the MD is better at mauling with it's alternate armaments anyway.

So, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

I'm far more excited for ACs on sentinels (two points more than multilasers!) or in heavy weapon squads, where they run 54pts for three, but won't draw a ton of enemy attention.

I had missed the sentinel application!

There really is no reason at all to take multilasers on them now.

 malamis wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

I'm far more excited for ACs on sentinels (two points more than multilasers!) or in heavy weapon squads, where they run 54pts for three, but won't draw a ton of enemy attention.

I had missed the sentinel application!

There really is no reason at all to take multilasers on them now.

It's still the cheapest option, and even for two points, I'd rather throw a storm bolter on a tank than upgun a scout sentinel, which is 90% there to block deep strikes, draw fire, charge as needed, or hide on objectives. Going from 1/9 wound on a rhino while moving to 1/3 of wound is pretty negligible.

What does everyone intend to do to supplement their screens for the arty / heavy weapons now that your one conscript squad that could take insane bravery doesn't really make sense anymore.

I'm wondering whether 3 Infantry squads with flamers in front of the other infantry squads and juicy stuff is sufficient.

It might just be that we need to evaporate any attackers after the first wave with a punisher / vulture.