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 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?

Pretty much all the cheapish FW artillery got huge points increases (Earthshaker Batteries and Carriages, Medusa, Thudd Gun/Quad Mortars, etc). Salamander Command Vehicle went WAY up, so no more cheap +1 to hits on your Baneblade or whatever. The Cyclops went up 20 points, so most people think that kills them. Wyvern got a points increase rendering it pretty unplayable (it was borderline before, +10 is the deathblow imo), better to build your own out of HWS with Mortars.

Weirdly, though, the Trojan remained the same.

So the Trojan, which was always better than the Salamander, is now even better than the Salamander.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Weirdly, though, the Trojan remained the same.

So the Trojan, which was always better than the Salamander, is now even better than the Salamander.

Yeah not to mention it's a good place to hide your techpriest, Harker, etc in case you don't get first turn (and aren't running a transport Baneblade). Really a badass little vehicle for its price.

 exliontamer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Weirdly, though, the Trojan remained the same.

So the Trojan, which was always better than the Salamander, is now even better than the Salamander.

Yeah not to mention it's a good place to hide your techpriest, Harker, etc in case you don't get first turn (and aren't running a transport Baneblade). Really a badass little vehicle for its price.

Exactly!

I usually put in an Astropath / Primaris Psyker or two (for the sweet -1 To-Hit power and +1 to saves), a Company Commander (for fluff reasons mostly, to lead the Vanguard detachment), a Techpriest, and then my 3rd or 4th Elite is an Atlas.

That means that the Baneblade in question gets:

2d3 repairs a turn, plus
-1 to hit by enemy attacks, plus
+1 to save, plus
re-rolls failed rolls to hit, plus
a whole bunch of comparatively expendable units to extend enemy deep-strike ranges.

All told, though, that's damn near 300 points in addition to the Baneblade's cost. It's fluffy though because my army is the 2nd Concordian ISHTAR.

I'm looking at converting my own Trojan, there is no way I'm paying $60+ USD for that damn thing.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I'm looking at converting my own Trojan, there is no way I'm paying $60+ USD for that damn thing.

:O

I own 3 and have 1 more converted as the "lead" vehicle for my ISHTAR's support company.

But yeah, converting it is the smart option.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I'm looking at converting my own Trojan, there is no way I'm paying $60+ USD for that damn thing.

Oh yeah no doubt. Buy a little toy crane and glue it to a Chimera. Done.

Ive built mine based on a hydra chassis with some pieces from the galvanic servohauler kit. Add a softback cover, some ammo boxes in the back, and I think it conveys the rules quite well.

So not too many changes, just mainly nerfing conscripts. Are we still competitive with the nerf? Just a question of being curious, since the perception seemed to be that conscripts were suddenly stupidly good and let Guard win tournaments left and right.

Melta gun increase and psyker increases are really the only things that impacted my competitive list.

ThePorcupine wrote: I'm loving that list. I'm also trying out mechanized tallarn, so I'm eager to hear how its working for you.

Just a few nitpick.

If all you're running in your chimeras are SWS don't you think tauroxes would be a better choice? Similar survivability, but much cheaper, and arguably 2 autocannons > 3 heavy bolters? I dunno. There's a discussion to be had there.

While hellhounds are pretty good in any case, they don't benefit at all from being tallarn. That's why I'm going to try out sentinels (armored and non) as my tallarn fast attack options. Could be good. Could be trash. But if any regiment can make sentinels work, its tallarn.

Yes, I am considering switching out 1 Hellhound for a squad of Sentinels, but it's hard to scrape the points. I could basically get 2 in there but not 3. I do agree they will do wonders to mess with deepstrike shenanigans.

RE Tauroxes, I do not have any sadly. I also don't like the T6 compared to the T7 and also the triple heavy bolters are pulling good weight taking down infantry or picking that last wound off a vehicle. When you're rolling for 4's I always prefer to take more shots. I will look for Tauroxes to try in the future, but didn't they also get near 100 points as well?

Colonel Cross wrote:My god, that is so much armor for an opponent to chew through! You just open yourself up to horde CC armies or deep strike on your tanks with no screen. Definitely a brutal list!

Yes, horde CC will be a problem, I basically have to feed them a tougher vehicle every turn while trying to kill what I can, hence the 2 Chimeras that I can deepstrike if I need to and hopefully burn down a squad. Honestly Orks and Nids will be a headache but there's very little way around them.

lash92 wrote:
I like your list and since I got some experience with (Tallarn) Mech I want add/ask somethings:

1) I don't know if cyclops are worth it, they just got 50% cheaper with CA.

2) You are lacking troops; was this a problem for you in some games, e.g. regarding objectives?

3) For your primaris I would go with shield + something offensive (maybe maelstrom).

4) Have you played against deepstriking / CC based armies yet? Since you are missing screens entirely they could be quite a pain.

5) In conjunction with 4): Add some scout sentinels. Their scout move is key to minimise the deepstriking effectiveness and since your Tallarn you can fit them out how you want.

6) Have you played against hordes so far? Imo you are lacking anti horde, so maybe some punishers or Wyvern?

7) Depending on how agressive you are playing with your Russes, maybe switch some BT for conquerors. For +3pts you get reroll to hit within 24".

So yeah just my 2 cents

ThePorcupine wrote:
While hellhounds are pretty good in any case, they don't benefit at all from being tallarn. That's why I'm going to try out sentinels (armored and non) as my tallarn fast attack options. Could be good. Could be trash. But if any regiment can make sentinels work, its tallarn.

That's not entirely true, if he gives them a HB But yeah they would benefit more from being Catachan.

Regarding Sentinels: Haven't played the armoured version yet, but the scout is crucial for deepstrike denial. And you can give them every weapon as tallarn (I prefer Lascanon / HB).

1) Yes, I think I'll hold off for now, they're OK but I don't know if I can squeeze them in at this point.

2) Not bad so far, being able to get to the objectives for Maelstrom is the most important, it comes down to being cagey with objective placement when you can be. Once I score it I fully expect my infantry to get obliterated, that's just how Guard are.

3) Gotcha, normally if I'm going aggressive it's with a smite, but I'll noodle around with the other powers.

4) Almost exclusively. I've been playing against Tempestus + Admech + Celestine soup, basically I just have to hope for T1, or grin and bear it then try to counter with what I can, usually I sacrifice a couple of Chimeras as walls against Celestine then blast her and any Scions that have come down around me. Being able to counter-deep strike against them is really important.

5) as I stated to Porcupine, yes, I'm consdering fitting Scout Sents in, keeping them cheap with just multi-lasers I think is going to be best, then at least my opponent will grimace while they're directing fire into them.

6) No, not many aside from the now defunct conscripts. I think Nids and Orks are going to be tough, but I'll at least be maneuverable around them. I do have the 2 Hellhounds that can Ambush with Tallarn (hence why I'm putting them in that detachment). Wyverns have really failed me overall, just not enough shots, or wounds and I've had the same experience with Punishers, even sitting still and blasting 40 shots it seems to always go something like this: 40 shots, with Cadian let's say a generous 30 hits, then against normal infantry that's 20 wounds, then with saves I'm taking down 10 models maybe? And all this while the enemy is within 24" of your line so you're already in trouble if you're not striking and then moving. It's a TAC list, but not amazing at dealing with

7) Yes! I love the conqueror, the points are just not there with this list so it would need a major overhaul. I have 6 Conqueror turrets in the works now, but that will be for my full LRBT army, which is not going to be built competitively If I swapped all my LR chassis over to those I would run Catachan instead of Cadian for sure. Right now I am really liking the consistent damage output of the Executioners, and the stock LRBTs are there for the extra reach.

Really like the feed back btw guys, any other insights and experiences are much appreciated.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
So not too many changes, just mainly nerfing conscripts. Are we still competitive with the nerf? Just a question of being curious, since the perception seemed to be that conscripts were suddenly stupidly good and let Guard win tournaments left and right.

Not really, if anything these nerfs are showing people just how good the rest of the codex is, and in some cases showing that there are even better combos than what we were using before because everyone was blinded by conscripts.

Thinking of using some Conquerors - does their datasheet allow them to be taken in squadrons to minimize drops like codex Lemans?

 deltaKshatriya wrote:

 lash92 wrote:

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?

Conscripts are dead. They + Commissars got nerfed and they now cost as much as normal guardsmen.
Leman Russes are the new hotness, since you can fire your turret twice if you move under half of your movement.

Perfectly fine by me, since I run primarily tanks anyways, but it looks like that it's better just to take normal infantry for screening? Did anything else get nerfed?

Militarum tempestus units l went up, rod of command costs 5 pts now, taurox went up 19 pts. As for conscripts v infantry. I would always take infantry now that they are same cost, ESPECIALLY since they are now minimum size 20 dudes. they are actually a more expensive troop than lascannon infantry squads now(80 for base conscripts, 60 for lascannnon infantry).

Ecdain wrote:

 deltaKshatriya wrote:

 lash92 wrote:

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Hey all, I kinda missed the party, but it looks like conscripts got massively nerfed. Anything else really important happen with new releases? Are conscript/commissars much worse or still useful?

Conscripts are dead. They + Commissars got nerfed and they now cost as much as normal guardsmen.
Leman Russes are the new hotness, since you can fire your turret twice if you move under half of your movement.

Perfectly fine by me, since I run primarily tanks anyways, but it looks like that it's better just to take normal infantry for screening? Did anything else get nerfed?

Militarum tempestus units l went up, rod of command costs 5 pts now, taurox went up 19 pts. As for conscripts v infantry. I would always take infantry now that they are same cost, ESPECIALLY since they are now minimum size 20 dudes. they are actually a more expensive troop than lascannon infantry squads now(80 for base conscripts, 60 for lascannnon infantry).

Taurox went up, but autocannons went down. So it wasn't really too bad of a nerf. Autocannons are actually cheap enough to be mathematically worth bringing.

 Stus67 wrote:
Just curious but what does everybody like putting on their sergeants? I've been debating whether or not to use boltguns or bolt pistols or just saving the point and going laspistol.

Not going to bother remodeling the models so just chainsword+lp.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 exliontamer wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Weirdly, though, the Trojan remained the same.

So the Trojan, which was always better than the Salamander, is now even better than the Salamander.

Yeah not to mention it's a good place to hide your techpriest, Harker, etc in case you don't get first turn (and aren't running a transport Baneblade). Really a badass little vehicle for its price.

Exactly!

I usually put in an Astropath / Primaris Psyker or two (for the sweet -1 To-Hit power and +1 to saves), a Company Commander (for fluff reasons mostly, to lead the Vanguard detachment), a Techpriest, and then my 3rd or 4th Elite is an Atlas.

That means that the Baneblade in question gets:

2d3 repairs a turn, plus
-1 to hit by enemy attacks, plus
+1 to save, plus
re-rolls failed rolls to hit, plus
a whole bunch of comparatively expendable units to extend enemy deep-strike ranges.

All told, though, that's damn near 300 points in addition to the Baneblade's cost. It's fluffy though because my army is the 2nd Concordian ISHTAR.

Hrm, interesting - i always considered the Salamander to be better in the current ruleset.

My thinking was - Baneblade + 1cp + salamander = 2+ to hit. Options are then, go Cadia for the re-roll 1's and change the 1CP to 2CP, or throw in Yarrick if you want to stay Vostroyan and want the re-rolls... Then again a Trojan is cheaper than Yarrick...

I guess, re-rolling all misses is mathematically better, but I can’t help but feel that hitting on 2’s will be more “reliable”.

Well I think people went with the Salamander before because it was cheaper. But chapter approved ended that so I'd rather get full rerolls and some transport capacity now.

Seems like special weapons squads are the most efficient source of backfield plasma at the moment. Two (3 plasma each) special weapons squads with a company commander hiding behind cover and popping out when needed is a solid investment. With the cadian doctrine they can put out a lot of dakka.

Alpharius Walks wrote:
Thinking of using some Conquerors - does their datasheet allow them to be taken in squadrons to minimise drops like codex Lemans?

They are hugely amazing. The innate re-roll allows them to operate independently of everything else, chugging along at 5" a turn.

The combination of 2 storm bolters (8 shots!), hull heavy bolter and Catachan enhanced main cannon puts out a reasonable number of shots (20+) with the majority hitting on 4+ (or better)... when within 12".

Good basically, definitely worth investment. I've got two in a 5-LR 1500pt list.

Alpharius Walks wrote:
Thinking of using some Conquerors - does their datasheet allow them to be taken in squadrons to minimize drops like codex Lemans?

Yes, you can take squads, and I think they're going to be my main go-to now that their points dropped as well. For 3 more points than a stock LRBT you get the full re-roll to hit at anything inside 24" (really 1 point extra than taking a LRBT with a stormbolter)

I was planning to run Cadian Executioners for my -3 save shooting and Manticores as my artillery but now I'm thinking Catachan Conquerors with Basilisks as my source of -3 shooting.

This nets a lot more shots with re-rolls, so ideally more hits, and lets me keep moving my Obsec tanks onto mid-field objectives.

 More Dakka wrote:

Alpharius Walks wrote:
Thinking of using some Conquerors - does their datasheet allow them to be taken in squadrons to minimize drops like codex Lemans?

Yes, you can take squads, and I think they're going to be my main go-to now that their points dropped as well. For 3 more points than a stock LRBT you get the full re-roll to hit at anything inside 24" (really 1 point extra than taking a LRBT with a stormbolter)

I was planning to run Cadian Executioners for my -3 save shooting and Manticores as my artillery but now I'm thinking Catachan Conquerors with Basilisks as my source of -3 shooting.

This nets a lot more shots with re-rolls, so ideally more hits, and lets me keep moving my Obsec tanks onto mid-field objectives.

I've found Catachan executioners (with Harker) to be extremely reliable.

Re-rolling all four dice of plasma goodness is v.nice indeed.

Plus harker helps buff nearby units, definitely worthwhile.

So I know this is the competitive thread and all, but does anyone have a less than competitive and very fun/interesting list that they run with success? I've been considering an all fire all the time catachan list with a malcador infernus, hellhounds and heavy flamer sentinels. Burn everything. Still waiting on the infernus to arrive though.

What do you have access to?

I find the Heavy Mortars to be very fun units and definitely not strong.

Chimeras can help keep points away from our stronger units.

Vanquishers or Exterminators are poor choices for battle tanks.

Hydras.

Veterans.

Regular Ogryns or the shooty Bullgryn.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So I know this is the competitive thread and all, but does anyone have a less than competitive and very fun/interesting list that they run with success? I've been considering an all fire all the time catachan list with a malcador infernus, hellhounds and heavy flamer sentinels. Burn everything. Still waiting on the infernus to arrive though.

I would think about some mechanised close quarter combats Catachans:
- Vets with Shotgun + x
- Special Weapon Squads with flamers
- chimeras with 2 heavy flamers
- starken + priest

So Dark Angels chapter tactic is reroll hit rolls if they don't move (same as Cadian Regimental doctrine) AND cant lose more than one model to a morale check (same as the old Commisar mechanic).

I feel robbed!

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So I know this is the competitive thread and all, but does anyone have a less than competitive and very fun/interesting list that they run with success? I've been considering an all fire all the time catachan list with a malcador infernus, hellhounds and heavy flamer sentinels. Burn everything. Still waiting on the infernus to arrive though.

I generally base around an infantry company.

3 Company commanders.
Six IG squads. Flavor with plasma guns and Lascannons to taste.
3 HWS, two with 3 mortars, one with 3 heavy bolters.
3 Sentinels.
3 astropaths.

That gets you a brigade and is under 900 points. Its easily adjustable as well, you can cut back on the HWTs in the Infantry squads to get more points for other things. Or switch out a HWS for a LRBT or a Basilisk. The astropaths aren't as cheap as they used to be, so I'm not sure about taking them anymore, but they're the cheapest elite to fill out the brigade option, and they still deny at full power while eliminating cover advantage. Ratlings are another good option.

Then I just point up a second detachment of more flexible units (LRBTs, Scions, whatever) to get myself to the point cap.

Its not a tournament competitive army, but its solid, fluffy and fun. The sentinels use their scout move to push back the deep strike bubble in coordination with your Ratling deployment, which gives you more time to shoot. The opponent is left not sure what to shoot at because everything is pretty equally dangerous. Spread out across the table so he can't concentrate on you. Overcharged plasma and lascannons (or ML and autocannons) are a threat to big stuff, mass lasgun fire is your counter to little stuff. Deploy your HWS behind your lines to deny any rear deep strike. Each company commander should be deployed with two Infantry squads in close support and an astropath.

Ok so say you're a Cadian player rocking a boatload of mortar HWS, a shadow sword, and a sufficient amount of chaff screening models. Probably with some drop plasma or melta thrown in for taste.

What do you actually fear? That seems so good, especially since GW was literally like "hey Chaos. Go screw yourself. IG has learned from their fictional mistakes and thus has gained substantial in-game tactical benefits!" This kind of makes it hard for Chaos to compete vs Cadians.

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok so say you're a Cadian player rocking a boatload of mortar HWS, a shadow sword, and a sufficient amount of chaff screening models. Probably with some drop plasma or melta thrown in for taste.

What do you actually fear? That seems so good, especially since GW was literally like "hey Chaos. Go screw yourself. IG has learned from their fictional mistakes and thus has gained substantial in-game tactical benefits!" This kind of makes it hard for Chaos to compete vs Cadians.

Well, if you've invested in a shadowsword, you're worried about it getting shot to pieces in the first turn. Or maybe facing an enemy with no targets worth shooting at. If you brought mortars, you're probably worried your opponent is in power armor at which point they'll be largely ineffectual. If you brought infantry squads, you're worried about them getting shot up, charged, or positioned poorly. No plan survives contact with the enemy after all, and thy get just as many points as you do.

Cadians are a castle army. Go play the objectives and laugh at them if they hide in the corner. Setup the terrain beforehand to discourage castling. That was one of the biggest things I've found to matter this edition. When one person sets up the terrain it ends up being a sucky game, but if you do it like the manual says it works out fine, if you do it intelligently.

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok so say you're a Cadian player rocking a boatload of mortar HWS, a shadow sword, and a sufficient amount of chaff screening models. Probably with some drop plasma or melta thrown in for taste.

What do you actually fear? That seems so good, especially since GW was literally like "hey Chaos. Go screw yourself. IG has learned from their fictional mistakes and thus has gained substantial in-game tactical benefits!" This kind of makes it hard for Chaos to compete vs Cadians.

Anything that can target characters. "Snipers aren't eff-" yeah I know they're not points efficient. They still have the potential to drop critical officers every turn until you deal with them. If they get lucky and kill an officer it's really annoying and a big deal. Not just for shooting, but because the officers are how you sprint for objectives, fall back from combat and fire again, allow you to advance and fire, etc. This also counts for psychic things like Mind War or special abilities, some of which can target a character even if there's screening units and most of these can hurt if you're unlucky. Officers are an incredibly important lynchpin anytime you're bringing infantry. If they start going down your infantry only fight about half as well as they would otherwise. It's not really fair to compare using say 200pts of snipers to kill a company commander either. You're not just killing a 30pt model, you're also affecting around 100pts worth of guardsmen from activating at their best. This means not as many rerolls, not as many 20" sprints for objectives, not as much lasgun fire, etc.

Penalties to Leadership are also a huge deal now. I fought against some Eldar plane the other day that gave out -2 LD to everything around it and had smite and it was a nightmare to deal with. He could put it essentially wherever he needed it and scare guardsmen or hunt down tanks with his autohit guns. I don't think it put out enough damage and debuffs to ensure my line crumbled, but it definitely hurt. However, to ensure some of the guard player's squads ran, you would need to debuff and hit a lot of squads at once, since we have a good 3-4 different ways to counter morale shock with command points.

Other than that, assault units somehow getting through your lines to the tanks. Usually not an issue but it can happen. Anything other than a baneblade is dead the moment it gets caught in close combat.


That's about it though. I've found pretty much every other tactic can be countered pretty easily if you throw enough guardsmen at it. Even -1 hit abilities just can't quite keep up with the amount of fire we put out. Psychic abilities can be rough but that's only because I don't run pyskers. If I bothered to paint up my 2 primaris pyskers I have a feeling even that wouldn't be as big an issue.