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2018/02/24 15:37:56
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
How have you guys been finding the Basiliks + Master of Ordance combo? Is the 30pts worth a HQ for Grand Strategist + Re-rolling hit rolls of 1 for the Basiliks?
I have not used Basiliks before and looking to add them into my GSC army. Anyone have any tips on how to screen them and make sure they survive incase I don't get 1st turn?
I run a mostly Sororitas force, but this is a pure AM/MT question so I'll post it here.
I'm running a Battalion of Scions along my Sisters. One Prime hangs out in the back with my Canoness Warlord and nothing but his Kurov's Aquila. The hope is to keep him around all game to maximize the relic as I experiment with spamming CP.
The other Prime drops with all three plasma Scion units. He has a Rod, so I just need one more order... but more properly, I need one more ordered unit, as reliably as possible. Help me compare these options:
Spend 1 CP per turn on Inspired Tactics for as long as there are 3 Scions units... 2-3 turns if I'm lucky.
Spend 2 CP up front on a third relic with Imperial Commander's Armory (I'm already using the 1 CP version of that strategem to get Kurov's Aquila and the Blade of Admonition, 2 more CP gets me a third relic).
If I go with the second strategy, I believe it needs to be the Auto-Reliquary rather than the Laurels because I need a third unit and not just a third order. The 2+ is better than the 4+ too, it just doesn't cascade like Laurels. Have I got that right?
I suppose there's a third option, which is to abandon the Aquila and drop both Primes into harm's way. That saves me the Armory CP and means there's plenty of orders to go around, I just can't generate more CP during the game.
Please let me know if I've missed another option... I really just want to have the orders to secure my supercharged plasma and be swimming in CPs. Thanks!
Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder.
2018/02/24 22:38:05
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
It only allows one additional order, so it's Take Aim, and then some form of damage re-roll. If you used it to give a movement order they'd then not be able to fire, which is less fun. But Scions are very alphastrikey. Aim to do max damage the second they hit the table, and assume they'll all be dead by next turn. If not, great!
Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder.
2018/02/25 00:51:22
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
MacPhail, my experience is that small units like that don’t last after they’ve drawn blood... I run Tallarn with Sisters and use the Ambush stratagem to outflank 2 plasma Command squads and a plasma Vet squad. After the opponent retaliates next turn I usually am left with one squad and possibly a small portion of another. So my suggestion- take the Aquila and use CP for the Inspired Tactics- most of the time you’ll only have one or two squads to Order after they’ve alpha struck.
2018/02/25 03:36:42
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Take the Laurels of Command, and Spam the 1 CP to give you three orders a turn as long as you're alive. You want maxium return on investment in the shortest possible time.
I see... that's pricey in terms of CP (3 up front for all the relics + 1 per turn) but definitely punchy. I assume I'd do Take Aim to rerolls 1s, the situationally either Bring it Down or Elimination Protocols for the wound rolls, then maybe a movement order if they keep coming... am I right that Laurels can sometimes go that way?
MacPhail, my experience is that small units like that don’t last after they’ve drawn blood... I run Tallarn with Sisters and use the Ambush stratagem to outflank 2 plasma Command squads and a plasma Vet squad. After the opponent retaliates next turn I usually am left with one squad and possibly a small portion of another. So my suggestion- take the Aquila and use CP for the Inspired Tactics- most of the time you’ll only have one or two squads to Order after they’ve alpha struck.
Makes good sense. My experience is about 50/50. When my opponent either knows Scions, watches me reserve my first 5 or 6 drops, or is generally twitchy about getting his back line infiltrated, Scions don't see much beyond turn 2. The rest of the time I either find the perfect drop zone with good cover and range or my opponent is freaking out about Celestine, Seraphim, and melta Dominions and just ignores them to the point they have to hike out on turn 3 to look for targets. I think they're a great match for Sisters that way... there's enough alpha strike elsewhere in the list that they aren't always at the top of it.
I presume problem with demolisher is the extra 18 pts it costs?
And wyvern? Why take wyvern when one could take 9 mortars for the price. 9d6 vs 4d6. Okay okay reroll to wound but doesn't seem worth twice the hits and more spread out rather than one easily taken out model.
And the range, it's never where it needs to be.
As for the wyvern, yeah mortars are better, but he was asking for tanks.
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
2018/02/26 10:00:01
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I presume problem with demolisher is the extra 18 pts it costs?
And wyvern? Why take wyvern when one could take 9 mortars for the price. 9d6 vs 4d6. Okay okay reroll to wound but doesn't seem worth twice the hits and more spread out rather than one easily taken out model.
And the range, it's never where it needs to be.
As for the wyvern, yeah mortars are better, but he was asking for tanks.
Range hasn't been issue for me with punishers. With all the T1 assaults, deep strikes and what not 29" threat range is plenty. Not if all you have is that but few tanks will always have something to shoot. And if enemy stays out of 29" range that's good. They are getting bunkered up in one corner basically making hard to contest objectives. Worth it already
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/02/26 13:43:44
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Odrankt wrote: How have you guys been finding the Basiliks + Master of Ordance combo? Is the 30pts worth a HQ for Grand Strategist + Re-rolling hit rolls of 1 for the Basiliks?
I have not used Basiliks before and looking to add them into my GSC army. Anyone have any tips on how to screen them and make sure they survive incase I don't get 1st turn?
Cheers everyone.
Basis are great but I run them as catachan with Sgt Harker to give them reroll on number of shots as well as reroll 1s.
In terms of placement with their 120" range and the Master of Ordnance's reroll of 1s only working outside of 36" you'd be mad not to place it in the back corner or your board edge. I think the Master of Ordnance is only worth it if you take 3+ units that will take advantage. I have harker in the back corner with 2 Manticores and a Basi. I then put 2 x 10 man infantry squads 12" around the three artillery pieces giving them a large bubble. You could put the bubble closer (minimum 4" away to prevent the enemy from consolidating in) but I use this artillery and infantry "castle" as area denial. One point to note is I don't have the artillery right against the board edge. I like to give them 6" space behind them and ideally 4" between each piece so that once again the enemy can't consolidate into a second piece. The space behind allows the artillery units to fall back after they are assaulted so they're not trapped in combat.
I try and keep at least one decent cc guy back with the icastle (ideally within heroic intervention range) just to make assaulting the bubble wrap even less enticing. I normally use a beefed up company commander or Ogryn Bodyguard with the death mask but I'm sure you're spoiled for choice with a GSC army
.
2018/02/26 22:23:14
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Odrankt wrote: How have you guys been finding the Basiliks + Master of Ordance combo? Is the 30pts worth a HQ for Grand Strategist + Re-rolling hit rolls of 1 for the Basiliks?
I have not used Basiliks before and looking to add them into my GSC army. Anyone have any tips on how to screen them and make sure they survive incase I don't get 1st turn?
Cheers everyone.
Basis are great but I run them as catachan with Sgt Harker to give them reroll on number of shots as well as reroll 1s.
In terms of placement with their 120" range and the Master of Ordnance's reroll of 1s only working outside of 36" you'd be mad not to place it in the back corner or your board edge. I think the Master of Ordnance is only worth it if you take 3+ units that will take advantage. I have harker in the back corner with 2 Manticores and a Basi. I then put 2 x 10 man infantry squads 12" around the three artillery pieces giving them a large bubble. You could put the bubble closer (minimum 4" away to prevent the enemy from consolidating in) but I use this artillery and infantry "castle" as area denial. One point to note is I don't have the artillery right against the board edge. I like to give them 6" space behind them and ideally 4" between each piece so that once again the enemy can't consolidate into a second piece. The space behind allows the artillery units to fall back after they are assaulted so they're not trapped in combat.
I try and keep at least one decent cc guy back with the icastle (ideally within heroic intervention range) just to make assaulting the bubble wrap even less enticing. I normally use a beefed up company commander or Ogryn Bodyguard with the death mask but I'm sure you're spoiled for choice with a GSC army
.
Good idea with the area denial and enemy consolidation. I am tempted to drop the MoO for an Astropath now. Just realised that I am only bringing 1 Basilik so I can just pop the Stratagem to give it re-rolling failed hit rolls. I am also using 2 units of 30 conscripts as my chaff to protect my Tank Commanders, Basilik and Astropath. I hope a wall of 60 dudes is enough to keep my artillery and heavy hitters from being charged and give me good area denial for deepstriking.
Ordana wrote: Why would you ever use conscripts when Infantry squads are the same points and better in every single way.
Valhallan ones can use the mk 45 bolt pistol relic to make them strictly speaking better for pure screening. Thanks to the larger unit size they give you a larger zone of area denial than a mk 45 could with only infantry squads. They also mesh better with aura abilities like a priest.
In addition, if you're an infantry player (as in you use your infantry as more than just a screen and see them as an important part of your firepower) conscripts are more efficient as the first line, allowing your infantry squads equipped with plas/lascannons to not be knocked out by turn 1 alpha charges.
They're a niche unit, but there are legitimate reasons to take them over infantry squads. I think outside of valhallan you're basically just assuming you're burning insane bravery on them every turn. If infantry squads go up to 5ppm then perhaps other regiments will have more reason to run them, but I doubt it.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2018/02/26 22:46:08
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Because I was going to use Termagaunts as meat shield but they have 6+ saves while conscripts are the same points but have a 5+ save. Infantry are better overall and are the same pts but im purposely using the Scripts as meat shileds and don't expect them to do any damage or shooting. I just want a cheap meat shield. Also, the only way to get Infantry to 10+ modles is to use a Stratgem whiel scripts can go to 30 models per unit.
I am using a unit of Infantry though but they have a Lascannons and will be behind the wall of Scripts and infront of the Astropath.
Also, Astropath can either give the Scripts -1 aura, +1 save or auto pass morale via pysker power which I think is better used on them rather then Infantry Squads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/26 22:47:16
Good question. I stopped and thought about it a while.
Me: "Why, if I wanted a 3+ save unit with no good delivery mechanism and insufficient attacks to do anything useful with, I'd play space marines. They'd look so much cooler and require less conversion effort! Man, fething GW puts crusaders in the fething codex but doesn't let priests keep their eviscerators? What the feth is up with that! I'm hungry. Wonder if there's anything I could be watching on TV while I paint tonight."
Good question. I stopped and thought about it a while.
Me: "Why, if I wanted a 3+ save unit with no good delivery mechanism and insufficient attacks to do anything useful with, I'd play space marines. They'd look so much cooler and require less conversion effort! Man, fething GW puts crusaders in the fething codex but doesn't let priests keep their eviscerators? What the feth is up with that! I'm hungry. Wonder if there's anything I could be watching on TV while I paint tonight."
No good delivery method? Valkyries and Chimeras aren't good?
Also conversion? Feast your eyes
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/27 01:32:34
How many crusaders? What are you going to actually DO with them?
10 are 150 points. They have 20 attacks total.
If you transport them in a Chimera, you're adding about another 100 points to the price tag. If you're doing a valkyrie, you're doubling their cost. That's getting you up to sternguard levels of cost. What are you hoping to do with them?
For the same points, you could run a command squad with 4 plasma guns, a SWS with 2 plasma guns and a demo charge, and a company commander. Supercharged, that gives you about an 8% worse (because some are BS4+) chance to hit, a 16-33% chance better to wound, and double damage, and that's without orders. You're also not worthless if you fail the charge, which means your transport doesn't need to get you quite as far. You DO have 8 more melee attacks compared to the number of plasma though, so I guess if you're attacking a giant squad of 3+/4+ units, the crusaders might actually be somewhat better, maybe. The acts of faith don't really seem that useful for them. The one that is effective, the opponent can circumvent by just walking out of melee range. Which he's going to do to light you up with small arms fire until you roll 1/2s. And then you have to deal with all the OTHER weaknesses of melee. I won't enumerate those here, but if you search Martel's posts, I'm sure he's covered them all in detail between all of his 10 word posts bemoaning Blood Angels.
I dunno dude, maybe I'm wrong, but it just doesn't seem like the winning strategy. All things considered, I'd rather have Ogryn/Bullgryn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, yeah, you're lucky enough have a bunch of those already. They got expensive and have spent a lot of time sold out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, this isn't P&M, but I gotta say: I really like the colors.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/27 02:28:17
My first though upon seeing them was what on Earth do these guys offer me over an ogryn bodyguard or a squad of bullgryn? Aside from looking cool I feel I'd rather have the ogryn in pretty much any scenario. Strength and damage tend to matter a lot more in my area than AP for close combat I find, and ogryn mauls do a lot of work.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2018/02/27 08:59:44
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
In addition, if you're an infantry player (as in you use your infantry as more than just a screen and see them as an important part of your firepower) conscripts are more efficient as the first line, allowing your infantry squads equipped with plas/lascannons to not be knocked out by turn 1 alpha charges.
Equal number of infantry troopers without heavy/special would do same job for same price except do it bit better...If you aren't using it with valhallan thing there's no reason.
Just cause you CAN take special/heavy doesn't mean you HAVE to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odrankt wrote: Because I was going to use Termagaunts as meat shield but they have 6+ saves while conscripts are the same points but have a 5+ save. Infantry are better overall and are the same pts but im purposely using the Scripts as meat shileds and don't expect them to do any damage or shooting. I just want a cheap meat shield. Also, the only way to get Infantry to 10+ modles is to use a Stratgem whiel scripts can go to 30 models per unit.
I am using a unit of Infantry though but they have a Lascannons and will be behind the wall of Scripts and infront of the Astropath.
Also, Astropath can either give the Scripts -1 aura, +1 save or auto pass morale via pysker power which I think is better used on them rather then Infantry Squads.
3x10 > 1x30 so not sure why you are too stressed about that. With 3x10 you screen better and lose less to morale so it's cheaper for you as well. One guy can't tag whole squad into combat. Etc etc etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/27 09:02:27
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/02/27 09:24:35
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
3x10 > 1x30 so not sure why you are too stressed about that. With 3x10 you screen better and lose less to morale so it's cheaper for you as well. One guy can't tag whole squad into combat. Etc etc etc.
I just want a good screening unit tbh. The reason I like the 30 models of scripts is because if I am using an Astropath it's better to buff them with a pysker power then a unit of Infantry men. I guess I could try out both situations in a game or 2 over the next few days.
The only issue I see is in my Meta we usually play games where you get extra points for killing full squads. That means 3 units of 10 guys could actually cost me the game if my opponent focuses on them 1st. While a blob of 30 guys will give them less points for the same concentrated fire power making the unit of scripts somewhat better for those situations.
3x10 > 1x30 so not sure why you are too stressed about that. With 3x10 you screen better and lose less to morale so it's cheaper for you as well. One guy can't tag whole squad into combat. Etc etc etc.
I just want a good screening unit tbh. The reason I like the 30 models of scripts is because if I am using an Astropath it's better to buff them with a pysker power then a unit of Infantry men. I guess I could try out both situations in a game or 2 over the next few days.
The only issue I see is in my Meta we usually play games where you get extra points for killing full squads. That means 3 units of 10 guys could actually cost me the game if my opponent focuses on them 1st. While a blob of 30 guys will give them less points for the same concentrated fire power making the unit of scripts somewhat better for those situations.
I see your reason for desiring a large blob unit, the question is, is it worth the nerfs of WS5 / BS5 / LD5 / receiving orders only half the time and If they don’t accept an order they can’t be given any more / no special or heavy weapons....?
I don’t know, it’s just a lot to give up don’t you think? If your Psyker dies or doesn’t get off his power someone could take advantage of that to delete that unit just by killing off half of it (the other half dying to morale). Tough way to lose 120 pts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 00:32:09
2018/02/28 04:12:39
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Red Corsair wrote: I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th
If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.
Not really buying that. -1 to hit is not that major a factor especially when I get to shoot first before losing said trait. I also don't really see anything on the ground dishing out two las canon and two melta missile shots hitting on a 3+ with 14 t7 wounds for it's cost. Since when is saying your opponent will kill it really argument? Of course my opponent will shoot it down given the chance. I think it is more durable then your giving it credit, a leman russ tank commander is about the next best thing in regard to high BS long range AT and although it has +1 toughness it lacks two wounds and has no hit penalty if I go second. The toughness differential in my experience is less of an issue in 8th since most people are using strength 9+ for long ranged AT anyway. A tank commander also costs substantially more when fitted for the same roll and has more issues with range and LOS.
EDIT: BTW the increased BS is important to me as a result of playing so many damned -1 to hit armies. Eldar currently shut down our artillery almost entirely by simply using alaitoc and conceal. It's a big issue when you need to crack open that key wave serpent. Next best solution is to valk in command squads which costs substatially more and is easily counter deployed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 04:17:23
Red Corsair wrote: I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th
If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.
Not really buying that. -1 to hit is not that major a factor especially when I get to shoot first before losing said trait. I also don't really see anything on the ground dishing out two las canon and two melta missile shots hitting on a 3+ with 14 t7 wounds for it's cost. Since when is saying your opponent will kill it really argument? Of course my opponent will shoot it down given the chance. I think it is more durable then your giving it credit, a leman russ tank commander is about the next best thing in regard to high BS long range AT and although it has +1 toughness it lacks two wounds and has no hit penalty if I go second. The toughness differential in my experience is less of an issue in 8th since most people are using strength 9+ for long ranged AT anyway. A tank commander also costs substantially more when fitted for the same roll and has more issues with range and LOS.
EDIT: BTW the increased BS is important to me as a result of playing so many damned -1 to hit armies. Eldar currently shut down our artillery almost entirely by simply using alaitoc and conceal. It's a big issue when you need to crack open that key wave serpent. Next best solution is to valk in command squads which costs substatially more and is easily counter deployed.
Would you say officers of the fleet help you in any way. I have a friend who runs elysians and is really struggling to get his Vultures to work. He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2018/03/01 16:06:30
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Hi there, proud commanders of our beloved emperor!
So, how do you ussually deal with minus to hit modifiers? I have read about some possibilities, but I dont think they really work.
1) Someone recommended to use scions with plasma to negate Alaitoc automatic minus to hit modifier through short distance fire. However, Scions are only there for that one punch when they come...and the turn they show up and try to shoot a vehicle, the eldar player will promptly use his -1 to hit stratagem and your scions will burn themselves...and probably not manage to kill the vehicle...which is quite a problem because they cost a LOT more than a fire prism of serpent.
2) Another recommendation was Pask. There is yet to be a game where my Pask survives to my turn 2.
3) Overlapping fields of fire stratagem...well, it helps. However you have to wound the enemy unit to use it so if your enemy see you are preparing to concentrate fire to his unit, he again uses his -1 to hit stratagem...making his unit -2 to hit...
4) There are units that automatically have another minus to hit modifier (rangers, serpent, hemlock)...how can you even hurt them? With -2 to hit automatically and -3 to hit with stratagem or eldar spell, you have no chance to hurt those pointy eared bastards!
Do you have experience playing against these armies?
2018/03/01 16:21:46
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I have a couple hellhounds I normally bring that help out with that kind of stuff. Otherwise I ignore them as much as possible. If it feels like it's something I could get close enough to, I'll assault it.
Hellhounds. 16" of "I don't care about your modifiers". Even better it has a nice armor save and a bunch of wounds to chew through.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
Hellhounds are nice, but they are rubbish anti tank and can't do it all. Best solution I have used so far are cyclops run in tandem with hellhounds. Bascally the hellhounds block line of sight to the cyclops which advances to keep up. Hopefully turn 2 you can drive up and auto hit the trouble units. That strategy became costly with the errata to cost however.
Modifiers to hit are really starting to make the game stale. Essentially artillery is worthless.
My best units are assault which is hilariously awesome. I always leave home with at least 5 bulgryn and lately I have been inclined to increase the assault element from Valkyries. I run catachan, so I know this doesn't help everyone, but fill your birds with platoon commanders with power fists and plasma pistols and gear up for punching elves. This at least helps verse their infantry and to some degree tanks, but popping serpents and fliers is still a massive issue.
Red Corsair wrote: I take it I am in the minority for liking the vulture in 8th
If you go into hover for the 3+ you will get shot down next opponent turn... it’s a lot of points for something you could do more cheaply on the ground.
Not really buying that. -1 to hit is not that major a factor especially when I get to shoot first before losing said trait. I also don't really see anything on the ground dishing out two las canon and two melta missile shots hitting on a 3+ with 14 t7 wounds for it's cost. Since when is saying your opponent will kill it really argument? Of course my opponent will shoot it down given the chance. I think it is more durable then your giving it credit, a leman russ tank commander is about the next best thing in regard to high BS long range AT and although it has +1 toughness it lacks two wounds and has no hit penalty if I go second. The toughness differential in my experience is less of an issue in 8th since most people are using strength 9+ for long ranged AT anyway. A tank commander also costs substantially more when fitted for the same roll and has more issues with range and LOS.
EDIT: BTW the increased BS is important to me as a result of playing so many damned -1 to hit armies. Eldar currently shut down our artillery almost entirely by simply using alaitoc and conceal. It's a big issue when you need to crack open that key wave serpent. Next best solution is to valk in command squads which costs substatially more and is easily counter deployed.
Would you say officers of the fleet help you in any way. I have a friend who runs elysians and is really struggling to get his Vultures to work. He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.
Not sure about the OoF, I'll give it a shot though, but in regard to taking a vulture with MRP, I think thats kind of the issue he may be having. It just isn't worth taking if your gonna arm it like a valkyrie. Your basically just taking a valkyrie with no transport space. Against eldar maybe the AT vulture isn't the best since it only gains a bonus vs none fly units, but this thing helps a lot vs Bugs and hard to hit admech and marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/01 18:36:23
