Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Peregrine**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.

This is the problem: 4d6 shots vs. 40 shots. There is no situation where the AP -1 of the rocket pods makes up for the sheer difference in volume of fire, and the fact that the rocket pods cost more than the punisher cannons is just insult to injury. Vultures with rocket pods are never going to be an effective choice regardless of hit modifiers.

**CaptainO**

There was a post on here a while back questioning how well custodes could compliment AM, Particularly the Vexilla defensor (this name might not be exact). Its a banner that gives fully covered units within 9" a 5++ save and allow all units within 6" to reroll leadership. Basically a better Ork Kustom Forcefield combined with a commisar who doesn't kill his own dudes.

If I run this vexilla chap with my normal catachan blob the 40+ catachan will

Be S4
Have 3 attacks (1 +1 for straken +1 for my priest)
Have leadership 8 rerollable
Have a 5++ save

In a 2000pt army I can bring my catachan brigade (roughly 1000pts) and a Custodes Vanguard detachment (the other 1000.... I never said they were cheap)

The vexilla creates an infantry deathstar that will be hard to shift,Harker castles up with 2 manticores and a basi and the remaining custodes consists of a shield captain (deep striking) another Vexilus in terminator armour (deep striking) and 8 wardens (who can deepstrike 3" away from the enemy with some CP shenanigans)

The wardens when properly buffed have 5 to 6 s8 ap-3 attacks each. Hitting on 2+ with a reroll.... Dudes are ridiculous.

Anyone had any luck with this?

**Red Corsair**

It looks fun but the only problem I have is the custodes, they really don't compliment us that well since they are so expensive, I get why a custode would want guard infantry to gain CP's and cheap screens/campers but if guard is your primary (50%+ of your points) your generally not gona get enough custodes to handle certain issues. Best thing we could port in are the bike shield captains and they seem good on paper until you realize they still go down easily to mortal wounds and have next to zero psychic defense.

I may like the vexillia, but how much is he? Because if he costs as much as 30 or 40 more guardsmen I don't think he's bringing much that those guardsmen wouldn't already do better. Your not getting that many dudes under the invuln blanket without deploying terribly lopsided.

**Ice_can**

Also I would double check that its only within and not wholly within 6 as good luck getting 40 dudes in that space

**MrMoustaffa**

Peregrine wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.

This is the problem: 4d6 shots vs. 40 shots. There is no situation where the AP -1 of the rocket pods makes up for the sheer difference in volume of fire, and the fact that the rocket pods cost more than the punisher cannons is just insult to injury. Vultures with rocket pods are never going to be an effective choice regardless of hit modifiers.

According to him the twin punisher loadout was hideously expensive and it couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with other weapons due to it losing some sort of special rule. He claimed it was normally hitting on 5's I think.

I'm starting to wonder if he has outdated rules or something.

**Kdash**

Ice_can wrote:
Also I would double check that its only within and not wholly within 6 as good luck getting 40 dudes in that space

The Defensor, is "Wholly within" and is a 9" bubble - so effectively an 18" circle.

As for points, if you go normal and not termi armour, i believe it's 114 points (with an axe)

**malamis**

CaptainO wrote:
There was a post on here a while back questioning how well custodes could compliment AM, Particularly the Vexilla defensor (this name might not be exact). Its a banner that gives fully covered units within 9" a 5++ save and allow all units within 6" to reroll leadership. Basically a better Ork Kustom Forcefield combined with a commisar who doesn't kill his own dudes.

I'm not up on Custodes presently, but is there anything stopping you taking a Supcom and one of them instead of going all in? If all you want is the vexilla then surely there's no need to make a full detachment of them if you're taking 1-3 primaris psykers.

**Peregrine**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
He's running them with the multiple rocket pods though so maybe that's part of his issue as well.

This is the problem: 4d6 shots vs. 40 shots. There is no situation where the AP -1 of the rocket pods makes up for the sheer difference in volume of fire, and the fact that the rocket pods cost more than the punisher cannons is just insult to injury. Vultures with rocket pods are never going to be an effective choice regardless of hit modifiers.

According to him the twin punisher loadout was hideously expensive and it couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with other weapons due to it losing some sort of special rule. He claimed it was normally hitting on 5's I think.

I'm starting to wonder if he has outdated rules or something.

Yeah, it sounds like your friend is missing some rules there. Both the rocket pods and punisher cannons are heavy weapons (so hit at the same BS), and the rocket pods are more expensive.

**ThePorcupine**

Wrong. Multiple rocket pods are now assault. It's in the codex. Did the multiple rocket pods from imperial armor never get fixed?

**Polonius**

There is no change in the FAQs to make Index MRPs assault, so RAW they're still heavy.

**Red Corsair**

MRP and the punisher load out are not really worth it IMHO. Loads of s5 with no AP isn't all that effective. For some reason though we can shoot to hellstrike missiles per turn and the twin las canons. It effectively gives guard a predator annialitor at around the same cost, hitting ground targets just as well but with 3 more wounds and a -1 to hit turn 1 and pretty free reign on visibility to enemy models you want it to shoot thanks to it's model. The missiles are nasty since they are basically vanquisher rounds. I hear one other person claim there was better AT available on the ground for cheaper but I am still waiting to here what it is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Also I would double check that its only within and not wholly within 6 as good luck getting 40 dudes in that space

The Defensor, is "Wholly within" and is a 9" bubble - so effectively an 18" circle.

As for points, if you go normal and not termi armour, i believe it's 114 points (with an axe)

He's a total trap then. You could simply buy 30 more guardsmen which is WAY more then he is ever going to save in a game, especially since his banners wording also makes him force you into poor deployment. Infantry should be using Move move move turn 1 to cover the table and deny DS, and prior to turn 1 should be screening your entire line, this means your not going to get full squads under that thing and if you do you are going to need more squads for that initial job. He just doesn't seem worth it to me, he seems better in a marine list where they can give hellblasters or inceptors an invuln save similar to Azreal if you are not playing dark angels, In other words he sounds like he is best suited at buffing elite units, our elite unit (bulgryn) gain nothing from him.

**Fenris-77**

I can see it being useful with Mordians, since they want to be base to base anyway to make use of their overwatch buff. IF you have firebase units under the 5+, and less expensive squads out with the MMM denying board space it sounds like it would work. Or with as firebase of Scion squads, same concept. Heck, even on a Valhallan conscript screen. Anything the opponent is going to be motivated to shoot first and that will be more survivable with the 5++ is potentially a good target.

That said, the point above about elite infantry is well taken. Squads like Hellblasters are a pretty ideal target.

**CaptainO**

Red Corsair wrote:
It looks fun but the only problem I have is the custodes, they really don't compliment us that well since they are so expensive, I get why a custode would want guard infantry to gain CP's and cheap screens/campers but if guard is your primary (50%+ of your points) your generally not gona get enough custodes to handle certain issues. Best thing we could port in are the bike shield captains and they seem good on paper until you realize they still go down easily to mortal wounds and have next to zero psychic defense.

I may like the vexillia, but how much is he? Because if he costs as much as 30 or 40 more guardsmen I don't think he's bringing much that those guardsmen wouldn't already do better. Your not getting that many dudes under the invuln blanket without deploying terribly lopsided.

You can get the Vexilla Defensor dude down to 104points. The range is 9" radius. Its exactly the same rules as the Ork KFF (whole units only) but it also allows "units within" 6" to reroll leadership. Pretty awesome combined with the catachans ld 8 when near an officer.

The other 900ish points would be spent on 8 custodes wardens buffed by the vexilla that give plus 1 attack and a shield captain so they reroll all 1s to hit(they hit on 2s normally) The 2 stratagem that allows them to deepstrike as close as 3" to an enemy combined with the 6 x s8 ap -3 attacks each.... They could destroy a baneblade in one round of cc with attacks to spare.

I've painted my catachan brigade (80 models) and thats only 1000ish points. The fact 1000 point of costodes is 11 models that would require painting is just an added bonus.

I'd have an AM company commander with the Aquilla and grand stratagist to farm CP points. The custodes stratagems are some of the best I've seen but boy are they pricey...

**Otto von Bludd**

Regarding the Vulture, am I correct in my understanding that, if it is taken in an Elysian regiment detachment, it becomes an <Elysian> unit and thus gains their Deep Strike ability as per the FW FAQ? If so that makes it an excellent unit, (immune to alpha strikes) with either the Punishers or the Las/Missile loadout.

**MrMoustaffa**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
Regarding the Vulture, am I correct in my understanding that, if it is taken in an Elysian regiment detachment, it becomes an <Elysian> unit and thus gains their Deep Strike ability as per the FW FAQ? If so that makes it an excellent unit, (immune to alpha strikes) with either the Punishers or the Las/Missile loadout.

Far as I know aeronautical units do not get regiment traits

**Peregrine**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
Regarding the Vulture, am I correct in my understanding that, if it is taken in an Elysian regiment detachment, it becomes an <Elysian> unit and thus gains their Deep Strike ability as per the FW FAQ? If so that makes it an excellent unit, (immune to alpha strikes) with either the Punishers or the Las/Missile loadout.

Correct. The Vulture replaces all instances of AERONAUTICA IMPERIALIS with ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS, and all models with ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS have the deep strike ability.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Far as I know aeronautical units do not get regiment traits

This is an explicitly stated exception to the rule.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:
There is no change in the FAQs to make Index MRPs assault, so RAW they're still heavy.

Correct. Even as assault weapons they're still trash though. Consider the ideal case for the rocket pods: moving and shooting at a target with FLY (so BS 4+ vs 5+, maximizing the difference) with a 2+ armor save (maximizing the value of AP -1). The rocket pods are averaging 14 shots on 4D6. They get 50% more damage from the BS improvement, up to 21. They get double the damage from AP -1, up to 42 effective shots. So, in an extreme edge case situation the rocket pods beat the punisher cannons by a very slight margin, at a slightly higher point cost. In any other situation the sheer volume of fire from the punisher cannons beats the rocket pods per-shot advantages.

**Red Corsair**

Not to mention you get the same firepower on valkyries for cheaper only you can freight dudes up the board as well. MRP just are not worth it on the vulture. The more I crunch it, it really is best suited for AT. Punishers are fun but really don't do crap since they have no AP.

**Otto von Bludd**

Red Corsair wrote:
Not to mention you get the same firepower on valkyries for cheaper only you can freight dudes up the board as well. MRP just are not worth it on the vulture. The more I crunch it, it really is best suited for AT. Punishers are fun but really don't do crap since they have no AP.

I haven't run my Vulture yet in 8th but the AT loadout does seem like it might be, as was mentioned earlier, the best single AT model we have access to. I'm going to have to try an Elysian Vulture with Las/Missiles dropping into casting range of Nightshroud. Its closest competitor would be the LR Annihilator which may be slightly superior actually, I'm not sure. Elysian Vultures are immune to alpha strikes though, which is a big advantage. Being able to drop into hover mode to hit on 3s is also nice.

**Peregrine**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
I haven't run my Vulture yet in 8th but the AT loadout does seem like it might be, as was mentioned earlier, the best single AT model we have access to.

I'm not sold at all, not when the Avenger exists. For ~15 points more you get the same twin lascannon + twin hellstrikes, plus the avenger bolt cannon. The only advantage the Vulture has is the ability to hover and trade its -1 to hit for BS 3+ against some targets. If you ever want to move they're both hitting on the same 4+. And if you're just going to sit in the corner like a fixed turret emplacement then why not take a LRBT of some type?

**Unit1126PLL**

Lots of talk about the Vulture -

on the other FW Flyers, is the Thunderbolt Fighter and especially the Marauder Destroyer any good? I have both, and the Marauder Destroyer looks awesome, but I am having a heart attack every time I pay more for it than a Baneblade (540 points puts it even with a max-everything-but-pintle Shadowsword) for fewer wounds and a lower toughness. Its weapon loadout does seem very good, however, and the -1 to-hit in shooting against it also may offset the toughness difference more than I am giving credit for. Any thoughts?

**Weazel**

Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?

Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?

The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...

**Unit1126PLL**

Weazel wrote:
Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?

Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?

The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...

The Punisher is fine, especially if Pask gives himeself the re-roll 1's order or remains stationary. The only "bad" Russes (though they are pretty bad) are the Exterminator, Vanquisher, and Eradicator, I suspect.

**daedalus**

I did a thing: https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tempestus_Scions_Tactica

Just started with stuff I know gets repeated a lot, and I know Scion questions get asked all the time, so I thought it might be easier to just pass a link around rather than repeat the same things over and over again.

Feel free to contribute or change as you see fit.

**MrMoustaffa**

Weazel wrote:
Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?

Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?

The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...

Executioner's are absolutely disgusting even at bs4, I can't imagine one at bs2 rerolling ones

Absolutely give it a try. It will only fire once, because once that sucker nukes your opponents biggest unit they will do everything in their power to kill it. I am consistently told it is my opponent's most hated model.

**tneva82**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Weazel wrote:
Knight-Commander Pask: In an absolute vacuum and bubble, would you take the Punisher or the Executioner?

Furthermore, which aspects of the rest of your list or your local meta would make you choose one over the other?

The thing is I made a noob mistake while theoryhammering. Because of my SM background I assumed the punisher was S6 ap-1 (pro tip: it's not), leading me to decide it was superior to the executioner and I glued it together. I was about to magnetize the cannon but I was pressed for time and decided to forgo magnetizing. Not sure if I can dismantle it anymore though. Anyway, kinda looking for some reassurance that the punisher is a good loadout or else I start taking it apart...

Executioner's are absolutely disgusting even at bs4, I can't imagine one at bs2 rerolling ones

Absolutely give it a try. It will only fire once, because once that sucker nukes your opponents biggest unit they will do everything in their power to kill it. I am consistently told it is my opponent's most hated model.

Pask in executioner has been one of the top units I have used. It's just sickening firepower. Thank game balance it's 0-1(feels like GW has applied stupid max 1 option discounts with him). Only issue with him is that a) he's prime target so guess which tank is targeted first b) as you have only 1 max in bigger games it won't generally get to shoot more than once(in smaller games he's even more awesome as much more likely to get 2-3 turns of shooting). But you are basically quaranteed to get one unit from enemy vaporized unless it has good inv save, high T and tons of wounds in it. And even those takes a good dent.

With plasma benefitting from reroll's more than non-plasma the executioner feels playing to his strenghts more than other variants.

**Odrankt**

I have been looking at different ways to get cheap yet reliable chaff/screen units to protect my big guys so I was Comparing Infantry Squads with GSC Neophytes Hybrids and realised the Neos are actually somewhat better then Infantry men.

They can be taken in units of 20, giving them a heavy weapon is only 5pts dearer then giving an infantry squad a heavy weapon, while they cost 1pt extra per model that 1 point let's you cult ambush and the ability to bring more models in a unit, can swap out your Lasguns for shotguns on all your units, don't need to spend CPs to make this unit get bigger e.g. merging 2 infantry squads to become one.

If infantry squads are getting boosted from 4ppm to 5ppm and if they become the same price as Neophytes then "we" might as well that using them seeing as we can get extra rules and abilities for the same price.

Thoughts?

**Mellon**

Odrankt wrote:
I have been looking at different ways to get cheap yet reliable chaff/screen units to protect my big guys so I was Comparing Infantry Squads with GSC Neophytes Hybrids and realised the Neos are actually somewhat better then Infantry men.

They can be taken in units of 20, giving them a heavy weapon is only 5pts dearer then giving an infantry squad a heavy weapon, while they cost 1pt extra per model that 1 point let's you cult ambush and the ability to bring more models in a unit, can swap out your Lasguns for shotguns on all your units, don't need to spend CPs to make this unit get bigger e.g. merging 2 infantry squads to become one.

If infantry squads are getting boosted from 4ppm to 5ppm and if they become the same price as Neophytes then "we" might as well that using them seeing as we can get extra rules and abilities for the same price.

Thoughts?

I play GSC w AM as "allies", and I would not reccomend Neophytes. Among GSC players AM infantry is generally considered better than Neophytes. Orders are the main selling point. The points cost is mostly annoying.

Biggest drawback for an AM-player is that you must use the regiment Brood Brothers on all detachments to ally with GSC. And they don't have any regimental rules yet, so no doctrines etc... Also, you need at least as many GSC detachments as AM detachments.

In addition:
Max unit size doesn't help that much, because of morale. (for scenarios at 500-1000p it can be slightly useful)
Cult ambush is fun, but very unreliable unless you invest a primus and/or a stratageme into it. And in a GSC detachment there are many other things that does ambush much better (stealers, acolytes, aberrants).

That said, if you want to run neophytes, here are some common advice.
Double mining weapons are generally better than heavy weapon teams.
Double grenade launcher mixes well with autoguns/lasguns.
Double flamer and a power maul mixes well with shotguns.
Best flexibility and value for your points are probably units without upgrades.

My suggestion would be to revisit this idea after the GSC codex is released. Right now you are better off without Neophytes.

**Odrankt**

Thanks for the input Mellon. However, I always run my AM with GSC so I actually never use <regiments> so losing that isn't an issue as I am used to it by this stage. I have also never used Infantry squads nor used orders on any AM infantry unit either. I am definitely missing out on something but I like running my AM with GSC. I also bring a Mixture of GSC/AM/Nid Detachments so I usually only have one detachment per "ally" as well because my Meta doesn't allow the use of same Detachments e.g. GSC Battalion, AM Patrol, Nids Spearhead.

I am also running my Neos in 3 units of 15 so I am not that worried with losing models to morale. I am using the Neos to create 3 waves of anti-deepstrking area and as Chaff for my Russ's, Basiliks, Hive Tyrant and Biovores. If they can do that for the 1st 3 turns then I would consider that a good investment. I do agree with GSC having better units to Cult Ambush. I actually don't plan on cult ambushing my Neos because of my above idea. I do have a Primus but he will be Ambushing in my 2 Genestealers units in 2 different turns because it is one of the better "Ambush" teams (as you stated).

In terms of upgrades. I am running them all basic. I'm not giving them any heavy weapons as I do expect them do die in the 1st few turns.

I could show you my list as I have a game with Tzeentch today but I don't want to post a GSC soup list in an AM thread seeing as they are "different" armies.

**Mellon**

Allright! You obviously know what you are doing.

I thought you were a mostly AM-player that was looking into GSC neophytes out of curiosity. Sorry for underestimating you and giving way to basic advice :-)

**Odrankt**

Mellon wrote:
Allright! You obviously know what you are doing.

I thought you were a mostly AM-player that was looking into GSC neophytes out of curiosity. Sorry for underestimating you and giving way to basic advice :-)

Your all good Dude! It is also better to assume someone is new rather then expecting them to know everything

Your tips were helpful though and I always appreciate someone else's perspective and thoughts on my own issues.