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Bring on 8th

Tamwulf wrote:What will probably happen? We'll get a Day One PDF of the Legions with place holder stats so we can play Horus Heresy games in 8th edition from day 1. They won't be balanced or play tested or anything else, and it will quickly become evident that 30K is broken. Then FW will slowly, ever so slowly, drip out updated Legion books, probably at the rate of 2-3 Legions every six months. The first book to be done will be Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and White Scars because presumably, that is the book FW is working on right now. Around Holiday Season 2017, we'll see the first 30K book released for 8th ed- DA, BA, and WS. Six months later, we'll see the first three Traitor Legions. Once again, the Horus Heresy will be strung out over five plus years, with some Legions still using a Day One PDF with placeholder rules. "Codex Creep" will be a real thing, because those Day One place holder stats are going to suck the life out of whatever Legion you play. Anyone that played 2ed/Rogue Trader and then converted over to 3rd Ed knows exactly what I'm talking about. All the current armies received place holder stats/rules day 1, and that was OK at first. Then when the Codexes started rolling out, there was a definite shift in power levels, with New Codex > Older Codex > Place Holder Stats.

That's why I want DA, BA, and WS released in 7th first, so I can play a complete game until Forge World gets around to updating 30K properly. I'm just not looking forward to playing 30K with those place holder stats.

I'm not sure why any that would happen - it seems to go against what GW and FW have always done in the past and everything they've been saying over the last few weeks. Legion codexes? I think you're more likely to see a PDF set of 'data cards'. The codex creep model is exactly what they've been moving away from for years now.

Also, the release of Angelus as 7th wouldn't complete the game in any way - they've already stated that they think the Black Book series will be 12-15 books long, which means there still a lot to come before it's 'complete'.

SirDonlad wrote:Good attempt but no.
Mechanicum HQ's do more than trade wounds with their bodyguard - they use servitors to improve battlesmith rolls as well as denoting firepower via augury scanner - this is before we get into how the Lachrimallus based army list works.

How the list works in 7ed, you mean. This is a new game. It's gonna have new rules. Mechanicum HQs have special Bodyguard arrangements at the moment, but maybe they won't in the new edition. Maybe servitors will be a separate unit who add to battle smith rolls within a certain radius. Who knows?

I'm sure Ordo Reductor will still be written to keep to the fluff as an artillery/siege focussed list, but they're under no obligation to make those rules work in any way like they currently do in 7ed. Expect the way you play your army and arrange your units to change.

New one. I like new rules so far. Also FW will at the end use 8th.

Either homebrew 8.5 or homebrew 3rd-7th fusion. I've accepted that GW is going to make a hash of it whatever they do and I'm going to need to do some bodging to make anything work, but whether I mess with 8th at launch or go back and take the best bits of the patches-on-3e era and blend them into an experimental delicious multi-vintage fusion thing depends on how bad 8th actually is.

In an ideal world I'd like to see fw keep the 7th template and be allowed to make Hh and the "40k" rules there own, so fw could re write and change a lot of the glaring issues.


But what I really want is the last 3 legions to come out in 7th format, then they can get to changing it all to 8th, this will allow people to choose, and not be forced into a rule set that may be worse.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

How the list works in 7ed, you mean. This is a new game.

Thats my pretty much my perspective on 8th - it's a different game.

 ArbitorIan wrote:


I'm not sure why any that would happen - it seems to go against what GW and FW have always done in the past and everything they've been saying over the last few weeks. Legion codexes? I think you're more likely to see a PDF set of 'data cards'. The codex creep model is exactly what they've been moving away from for years now.

Also, the release of Angelus as 7th wouldn't complete the game in any way - they've already stated that they think the Black Book series will be 12-15 books long, which means there still a lot to come before it's 'complete'.

1. There are Legion Codexes, they are just not called Codeses. They are called Horus Heresy Book I: Betrayal, Book II: Massacre, etc. The red books are updates of the Big Black Books. Yes, FW has stated that there are going to be many Horus Heresy Books (I think I saw the 12-15 books rumor as well). There are only 3 Legions left that still need to be fully fleshed out, with unique rules, units, and most importantly, Primarchs. The same rumor that talked about 12-15 books also said the Legions would be completed, and the Siege of Terra would be a couple books, and after that, it would be all campaigns.

2. PDF 'Data Cards' are the same thing as a Day 1 PDF. FW does not have the people or resources to properly play test the entire 30K range, and so they will just vomit out warscrolls for us to play with. Forge World is a subsidiary of Games Workshop, and even though GW has been trying to absorb FW into the main studio, it hasn't happened yet. FW has a very, very small design team, and someone mentioned in another thread that the lead designer has had some kind of long, debilitating illness and is the reason why it took Book VIII so long to come out. It's also the reason why Book VIII is the most poorly written, worst edited Horus Heresy book yet. My personal opinion- FW knew when 8th was coming out, Book VIII wasn't entirely finished, and they didn't want to lose all the development time in a book very few would buy if they knew 8th Edition was coming out. As it is, a person would be really rolling the dice right now in building a new 30K army for 7th ed when 8th ed is coming. Book VIII is constantly being sold out, and that's probably due to the fact that FW underestimated how many people really wanted the book. Out of my play group of about 25 HH Players, we've only seen one Space Wolves and one Custodes player. Everyone else is waiting for 8th ed. Demand for Book VIII is high, but the actual purchase of new 30K armies is on hold until 8th drops.

3. GW can talk about trying to fight codex escalation all they want, but ultimately, they will fail because codex escalation is a part of their business model. The only players I know that select an army based on asthetics are new players to the game that don't know anything about the game. Veteran players select new armies based on how likely they are to win- "power factor". So GW combines new models and gives them powerful rules to entice both new players and veteran players into buying the new army. The last time GW wiped the slate clean was the transition from 2nd ed to 3rd ed, when all the old codexes instanly became null and void, and all the armies at that time received "place holder" rules that, in a word, sucked . As soon as a codex dropped, and GW did a great job dolling out those codexes over several years, that army not only had new models, but new rules that made them awesome. I don't see how that can possibly change with the 7th-8th ed change here. Day 1, all armies are going to get warscrolls for each unit. Think about how many units there are in 40K. There are 64 units in the Space Marine Codex alone. There is no way GW has playtested all of those units/formations out of just the space marine codex, when there are 18 codexes and 15 supplements. The Space Marines have the largest codex, but just thinking that everyone else on average has 30 units in each codex- that's 510 units, plus the extra formations and units out of the supplements. What does that mean? That there is too much for the design team to do, and not enough time to do it in. So 40K will get some very, very broken Warscrolls because there won't have been enough play testing. By extension, even though 30K is much smaller, it also has a smaller design team, and thus, the 30K warscrolls (Day 1 PDFs) will be very, very bad. Expect whole units to disappear as they did in 3rd and in AoS.

4. If GW moves to a "living rule book", as in revises and changes warscrolls as they see fit... well, just go take a look at Privateer Press and how that's working out for them right now. With the players doing all the play testing, new rules for units dropping every week, frequent errata... the game is in constant development, and no one knows all about what is going on. A unit that is great today can be crushed by an errata tomorrow (and it has happened a lot for Warmachine/Hordes lately). GW is going to have to find some kind of balance- too many updates and you break the game. Not enough updates with inadequate play testing means a broken game.

5. GW has already said there will be "army books" for 8th edition. I assume they will be in the same style as the books for AoS. They will roll out new models/units, and when they get to a certain point, they will write an army book for them. The army books have updated warscrolls over the previous warscrolls, meaning you have to get the army book or the digital app for AoS to get the most current warscrolls for your army. As an incentive, GW includes new warscroll battalions and army wide rules in those army books for you to buy. So far, GW has done a fairly good job of balancing out the new armies in AoS vs. the legacy armies (those without an armybook). However, it's important to note that some of the most broken, powerful armies are still those Legacy armies, while some of those Legacy armies have become extinct because they are that bad. Hopefully GW has learned from this, and we'll see more moderation in the army books for 8th ed.

6. Releasing Book IX with BA, DA, and WS (even though it's not supposed to have WS but Dark Mechanicum) would fully flesh out all the Legions for 30K. This would give the players the choice to play those armies well into the release cycle for 8th edition until Forge World can catch up with updated, properly play tested and edited Red Books. In my opinion, that would be the best thing Forge World could do to keep the integrity of 30K viable until they can properly design and play test all the units for 8th ed.

The cynic in me says that what's going to happen is that 30K will get very poorly balanced and edited warscrolls that will break 30K for years to come until FW can get out updated Red Books... which will take them 1-2 years based on their current track record. Whatever happens, 30K is in a very bad spot right now because FW was either totally surprised and didn't plan for 8th edition, or they are swamped with converting everything they can as fast as they can. Think about this: each Legion has about 4-6 unique units, plus the "Plain Jane Units", the Mechanicum, the Solar Auxilia, Custodies, Sisters of Silence, and Titans. Even without BA, DA, and WS, that's about 150 unique warscrolls, then you have to add in the Rites of War for each Legion, plus the "Plain Jane" RoW... I have faith that we will eventually get a great 30K game, but I have no hope that it will happen soon. Probably something along the lines of 2-3 years from now before 30K will be in the same place it is now. Another bleak prediction: We won't see updated Red Books until spring 2018, and Book IX won't come out until the Holiday season of 2018. Man, I hope I am wrong.

That is one heaping pile of assumptions poured into a big bubbling cauldron of negativity. Jesus.

I would rather be playing 8th, I like the changes.

I agree.

And to be fair, 30K wasn't "balanced" before Inferno dropped, and definitely wasn't afterward. Any "imbalances" in the updated 8th edition material are liable to be no worse, and maybe better given that the basic ruleset seems headed toward a more inherently balanced place.

But to each his own.

 gorgon wrote:
...the basic ruleset seems headed toward a more inherently balanced place...

I'm going to tell you a story.

Once upon a time a company in Nottingham made a game. Then they had some cool ideas and added them to the game.

Then they noticed the game was getting too complicated so they rebooted it. Then they had some cool ideas and added them again. The game wasn't too top-heavy yet, so they did it again, and again. Each time they threw new cool ideas into the mix without checking whether they worked, or checking whether the foundation they were throwing them onto was solid. Finally they stepped back and noticed that their game was a precarious top-heavy tower of inefficient mess.

So they said to themselves "It must be time for a reboot!" Then they collected some cool ideas and tossed them into a new pot without checking whether they worked.

The ruleset is not inherently balanced or unbalanced. The problem that led to 7th is that GW's design mentality is based on throwing a steady stream of new content out the door without checking to see if it's done or balanced and then not looking to see what happened to it because they're too busy making more new content.

8th is going to be less bloated than 7th. It isn't going to be any more balanced and it's going to keep getting increasingly bloated as GW throws new stuff at it until they get fed up and reboot it again.

^^^^This^^^^

 SirDonlad wrote:
^^^^This^^^^

Yeah.

I'm looking forwards to weapon master vet squads with power swords. Hitting first against terminators as usual, reducing their save to a 5+ and having the possibility to do 30 wounds.

Well, I'm not going to tell any stories...just the truth.

Things like broken psychics, nerfed assaults, buff shenanigans, and the deathstars that all those things created weren't about bloat. Just like how 5th edition's inherent bias toward armies sitting in metal boxes wasn't about bloat or broken codices. Eighth has a chance to level the playing field to a degree we haven't seen since early 3rd, both because we can see a 'leveling' approach in the core rules, and because we'll get a fresh set of codices designed for this rule set and updated periodically for balance.

Now, 30K doesn't quite have the codex legacy issues of 40K, but a reset can do it some good considering the disparities we see between the Betrayal legions and the Inferno legions.

Yes, imbalances will still exist, as I suggested in the part of my post that was edited out. But I think 8th has a real chance to be a truly good fundamental improvement. And if it gets too bloated for 30k or 40k in 8 years...that's too far down the road for me to get worked up about.

 gorgon wrote:
That is one heaping pile of assumptions poured into a big bubbling cauldron of negativity. Jesus.

Would you rather hear the opposite?

It's all going to be Unicorns and Sparkles and Rainbows! FW is the best, and GW can do no wrong! With such a small design team and so much to do, it means they will be super, duper efficient and seamlessly integrate all 150+ unique units with zero problems! Why, I bet they even have several members of GW right there with them, walking them through carefully and thoughtfully crafted algorithms to convert stats from 7th edition into 8th edition that will allow all the Legions to retain their unique flavor and characteristics, and yet be well balanced with each other. I expect FW to announce the same day that 8th releases pre-orders for new Red Books! 8th edition is going to be awesome! So awesome, that you will forget all about the seven editions before it!

So there. No assumptions and so much hope, faith, optimism and enthusiasm that it can't be contained. Sparkles and Rainbows!

As a side note, I spent a long time in the military, and the old expression was "Plan for the worst, expect the best". I'm planning for the show that 30K will become, but I expect all that planning will be for nothing as 8th will roll out with no problems and we'll all enjoy our game of little toy soldiers. My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen, but I have faith that they are trying their best and I'll make the new rules, whatever they may be, work.

 Tamwulf wrote:
As a side note, I spent a long time in the military, and the old expression was "Plan for the worst, expect the best". I'm planning for the show that 30K will become, but I expect all that planning will be for nothing as 8th will roll out with no problems and we'll all enjoy our game of little toy soldiers. My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen, but I have faith that they are trying their best and I'll make the new rules, whatever they may be, work.

I used to play Tyranids and CSM in 40k. So yeah, I am in the same camp right there.

 Tamwulf wrote:
My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen,

Then why are you here wasting everyone's time including your own?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen,

Then why are you here wasting everyone's time including your own?

How am I wasting your time and my time? You snipped and cut a portion of my post to prove what, exactly? You may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. So let me put it this way:

I expect this transition to 8th edition to not be smooth. There is already a ton of angst and whining about it. I'm sure everyone here has already heard local players complain about it, and some even say they are quitting the game altogether. We haven't seen all the rules yet, and we have no real idea how this edition will affect our armies. People are making a lot of assumptions, and people as a whole, dislike and resist change. The result is that a lot of people have this negative view of the new edition. I am totally looking forward to 8th edition because I love playing Age of Sigmar, and this edition looks like a better version of that rules set.

The experience I have had with GW and Forge World in the past leads me to believe that they will up the initial deployment of this edition, but eventually things will settle down, smooth out, and we'll have a good game again.

Myself, I love the fluff of 30K, I love the models, but sometimes the rules leave a lot to be desired. Hasn't led me to quit playing the game yet! I'm totally looking forward to 8th edition and can't wait to see what GW does with it. It's gonna suck at first. We're gonna have to overcome all that negative bias, and overcome the rough transition from 7th to 8th.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen,

Then why are you here wasting everyone's time including your own?

Chill dude, i'm cool with people venting a bit; theres a whole bunch of drastic changes on the go and this is going to be the start of a multiple year acclimatization between the people playtesting for gw and the community in terms of what we expect from a game and of their approach.

I feel that a lot of the changes have been made without having looked at them in a broader way - aside from what i've already said on characters, the new close combat transports are a bit pants-on-head silly and the new way seems to be that all vehicles are assault vehicles now - except they arent because you have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and your opponent gets to use a turn getting their units out of charge range.

So in effect it's like having a non assault vehicle, but your unit cant be targeted or assaulted until your next turn. Like invisibility, but for anyone disembarking...


What an odd mechanic.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I feel that a lot of the changes have been made without having looked at them in a broader way - aside from what i've already said on characters, the new close combat transports are a bit pants-on-head silly and the new way seems to be that all vehicles are assault vehicles now - except they arent because you have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and your opponent gets to use a turn getting their units out of charge range.

Regarding the underlined bit, isn't that exactly what you're doing? Judging changes without know the broader view of how the game will work in its totality, with all of the core rules, army rules, and unit rules? To take your example, you complain about how all vehicles are assault vehicles now, without knowing what rules that the current assault vehicles might get in 8th.

What you're saying is "there's going to be exceptions for certain models that you don't know about" yes?

Given GWs approach to rulemaking thus far i think its certain that some transport will get to dump its load after moving with a special exception (eldar i recon) but you can glean from the comments in the daily update that this will be the norm - it says "For a combat army, this will mean you will need to get your Transports where you need them in the previous turn for maximum effect."

It doesn't warn that only certain armies need to do that, it just generalizes to all cc armies.

My point still stands - despite making all vehicles assault vehicles, the other changes (core game mechanics, mind) negate it.

I like that this is turning into a YMDC discussion for a ruleset that we've only been given hints about.

Yeah. Nobody knows right now.
I myself can see massive problems in transitioning the ruleset without extensive cutting of weapons, profiles and the RoWs....

 Tamwulf wrote:
3. GW can talk about trying to fight codex escalation all they want, but ultimately, they will fail because codex escalation is a part of their business model. The only players I know that select an army based on asthetics are new players to the game that don't know anything about the game. Veteran players select new armies based on how likely they are to win- "power factor".

Well here's one. I picked SoH because I liked the green colour and Horus.

Actually don't think I have ever had army that would be considered even top-6. Maybe Tau though that was before they got the super upgrade.

What does that mean? That there is too much for the design team to do, and not enough time to do it in. So 40K will get some very, very broken Warscrolls because there won't have been enough play testing. By extension, even though 30K is much smaller, it also has a smaller design team, and thus, the 30K warscrolls (Day 1 PDFs) will be very, very bad. Expect whole units to disappear as they did in 3rd and in AoS.

Well they have had few years to do it(plus AOS can be used as well) and had external groups to test it as well. Not all doom&gloom.

4. If GW moves to a "living rule book", as in revises and changes warscrolls as they see fit... well, just go take a look at Privateer Press and how that's working out for them right now. With the players doing all the play testing, new rules for units dropping every week, frequent errata... the game is in constant development, and no one knows all about what is going on. A unit that is great today can be crushed by an errata tomorrow (and it has happened a lot for Warmachine/Hordes lately). GW is going to have to find some kind of balance- too many updates and you break the game. Not enough updates with inadequate play testing means a broken game.

Once per year.

then you have to add in the Rites of War for each Legion, plus the "Plain Jane" RoW...

That is assuming there are RoW in 8th ed and that they don't just use same detachment style as main 40k.

 Tamwulf wrote:
3. GW can talk about trying to fight codex escalation all they want, but ultimately, they will fail because codex escalation is a part of their business model. The only players I know that select an army based on asthetics are new players to the game that don't know anything about the game. Veteran players select new armies based on how likely they are to win- "power factor".

You need better friends/players.

I'd move and start over from scratch. It's the only way.

 Tamwulf wrote:
6. Releasing Book IX with BA, DA, and WS (even though it's not supposed to have WS but Dark Mechanicum) would fully flesh out all the Legions for 30K. This would give the players the choice to play those armies well into the release cycle for 8th edition until Forge World can catch up with updated, properly play tested and edited Red Books. In my opinion, that would be the best thing Forge World could do to keep the integrity of 30K viable until they can properly design and play test all the units for 8th ed.

I hear you, and I agree. It won't happen.

AT BEST, you'll get a pdf for those legions in 6th/7th edition. There will not be another book with 6th/7th edition rules for 30k.

Go ahead and start wailing and gnashing of teeth. Get it out of your system. Denial is the first stage of grief.

Play testing for over a year? External play testing? Who? This is the age of information technology. There are no secrets. If there were external play test groups, who are they, where are they, what have they been playing? If it's one thing I know about play testing, it's that no one can keep a secret, especially a gamer. Not one leaked a play test profile? No Reddit discussions about vehicle changes? No rumors about the changes in combat? Yeah, there has been no external play testing. There is no evidence to show it.

For gnashing my teeth and denial... you assume too much about how much importance I assign to a game of little plastic toy space soldiers... It's right up there with "Make my bed in the morning".

So are you claiming that the TOs and staffs that were mentioned actually WEREN'T? Like a faked moon landing or something?

If that's where your mind is at...I don't think there's any help or solace any of us can give you.


FWIW, I had some friends who did external playtesting for GW way back when. They didn't leak anything. Only a complete jackass who A) never wants to playtest anything again for GW and B) enjoyed potential legal action against them breaks their NDA and does that.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Play testing for over a year? External play testing? Who? This is the age of information technology. There are no secrets. If there were external play test groups, who are they, where are they, what have they been playing? If it's one thing I know about play testing, it's that no one can keep a secret, especially a gamer. Not one leaked a play test profile? No Reddit discussions about vehicle changes? No rumors about the changes in combat? Yeah, there has been no external play testing. There is no evidence to show it.

For gnashing my teeth and denial... you assume too much about how much importance I assign to a game of little plastic toy space soldiers... It's right up there with "Make my bed in the morning".

Lead times for gw products are years. And you seriously missed that they have several tounament groups like itc testing? Didn't you read faction focus?

And maybe they are smart enough to not get charged by breaking nda and also ruining chance of more chances to playtest. I know i would take that over leaking! Advance peek is fun. Why give it up

 Tamwulf wrote:
Play testing for over a year? External play testing? Who? This is the age of information technology. There are no secrets.

gorgon wrote:So are you claiming that the TOs and staffs that were mentioned actually WEREN'T? Like a faked moon landing or something?

Sounds like there are some secrets...