Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ross-128 wrote:
Of course, if someone runs quadra-knight you'll be able to just completely focus one at a time, in which case a well-rounded list probably *will* kill one per turn as I illustrated.

This is just false.

"A well-rounded list"?

If I have 3 devastator squads and 6 tactical squads all armed with lascannons, I STILL would not be able to kill 1 IK per turn.

That kind of durability (especially when combined with its offensive capabilities) for that power level (and probable points cost) is

 Traditio wrote:
Also, JNA:

"If it's anything I don't personally like, it's broken."

No. Anything which is obviously and conspicuously better than the vast majority of other selections in the game is broken.

Or is it the stuff that's too expensive/too weak that's broken?

And okay.

Grav Pistol-same range, same AP, wounds Marines worse, Termis the same.
Plasma Pistol-same range, same AP, wounds Marines better, Termis the same, and doubles out T3 things, at the cost of getting hot.

The Grav Pistol is better, sure-but not ridiculously slow. In fact, against Guardsmen, it's actually far worse.

JNAProductions wrote:Or is it the stuff that's too expensive/too weak that's broken?

That's ridiculous.

"No, this tiny minority of unit selections isn't OP. It's the vast majority of the game that's underpowered."

That's stupid.

And okay.

Grav Pistol-same range, same AP, wounds Marines worse, Termis the same.
Plasma Pistol-same range, same AP, wounds Marines better, Termis the same, and doubles out T3 things, at the cost of getting hot.

The Grav Pistol is better, sure-but not ridiculously slow. In fact, against Guardsmen, it's actually far worse.

Biased sample. Why don't you start talking about MCs and landraders?

I like how he's ignoring my points now. His lists are bad. That's the real issue. I have 3k lists with 15 tac marines and they're main use is a fast rhino for blocking movement.

 Traditio wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Of course, if someone runs quadra-knight you'll be able to just completely focus one at a time, in which case a well-rounded list probably *will* kill one per turn as I illustrated.

This is just false.

"A well-rounded list"?

If I have 3 devastator squads and 6 tactical squads all armed with lascannons, I STILL would not be able to kill 1 IK per turn.

That kind of durability (especially when combined with its offensive capabilities) for that power level (and probable points cost) is

Your opponent brought somewhere between 1600 and 2000 points of units, what are you doing with just 3 devs and 6 tacs?

keep in mind the IKs would likely only get a handfull of CPs whereas the oppisition could get considerably more. and if the IK is taking say a patol detachmenty along (maybe a tech marine to do repairs, and 2 squads of scout marines as objective grabbers) they'd only get Imperium and general stragetiums. and I GARENTEE the more faction specific a stragitum is, the better is is. GW's gonna wanna be dischouraging power gamers from superfriends lists.

ross-128 wrote:Your opponent brought somewhere between 1600 and 2000 points of units, what are you doing with just 3 devs and 6 tacs?

What?

This is an utter non-response.

It doesn't in the slightest answer my point.

My point is that EVEN IF I SPAMMED LASCANNONS, the IKs would still be practically impossible to take down in a turn.

A forteriori, if I DON'T spam lascannons or melta, IKs will be practically invincible.

That's unacceptable.

 Traditio wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Of course, if someone runs quadra-knight you'll be able to just completely focus one at a time, in which case a well-rounded list probably *will* kill one per turn as I illustrated.

This is just false.

"A well-rounded list"?

If I have 3 devastator squads and 6 tactical squads all armed with lascannons, I STILL would not be able to kill 1 IK per turn.

That kind of durability (especially when combined with its offensive capabilities) for that power level (and probable points cost) is

As myself and others have gone over many times before, you lists aren't well-rounded. Missiles, Boltguns, Flamers and Lascannons do not make a well-rounded list, they make a kind of square list with curved sides from all the pressure being placed upon them with trying to deal with everything when - to put it lightly - they are just terrible.

Your problem is more that you were taking some of the universally most under-powered weapon upgrades the Marines codex has (and a decent-ish special weapon that can't deal with vehicles full stop).

I caution everyone about making "this is OP! that is UP" statements right now, we've not got the points costs yet, and these faction focus articles are almost like Codex fluff in that their entire point is "LOOKIT HOW AWESOME YOUR FACTION IS!" you think they're gonna tell us about any nerfs? there was proably a reason the wraith Knight was skipped in the eldar focus article

Matt.Kingsley wrote:As myself and others have gone over many times before, you lists aren't well-rounded. Missiles, Boltguns, Flamers and Lascannons do not make a well-rounded list, they make a kind of square list with curved sides from all the pressure being placed upon them with trying to deal with everything when - to put it lightly - they are just terrible.

Your problem is more that you were taking some of the universally most under-powered weapon upgrades the Marines codex has (and a decent-ish special weapon that can't deal with vehicles full stop).

My point has nothing to do with my lists.

My point has to do with lists that actually should be good against IKs.

Lascannons are obviously an AT weapon.

Even if I spam AT weapons, the IKs are still going to be ridiculously durable against them and are still going to be undervalued in terms of their actual durabilit, mobility and damage output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I caution everyone about making "this is OP! that is UP" statements right now, we've not got the points costs yet, and these faction focus articles are almost like Codex fluff in that their entire point is "LOOKIT HOW AWESOME YOUR FACTION IS!" you think they're gonna tell us about any nerfs? there was proably a reason the wraith Knight was skipped in the eldar focus article

We know that they evaluated an IK at 23 power relative to a tactical squad at 5.

That could mean a lot of different things.

But it does not bode well for IK's not being completely OP.

It's possible that they won't be.

But it still doesn't bode well.

And again, that isn't because Knights were OP, it was because Lascannons didn't do their job at all - even against normal vehicles Lascannons were a terrible weapon to use.

Unless you're going to tell me Leman Russes, Land Raiders, Monoliths and Orkanauts are OP, too.

Lascannons suck at at in 7th. They are even worse at anti-mc. That fact is independent of iks. Lascannons are really only good at dropping void shields.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And again, that isn't because Knights were OP, it was because Lascannons didn't do their job at all, even against normal vehicles Lascannons were a terrible weapon to use.

It's not just 7th edition!

It's 8th edition!

That "23" number that I'm giving you is the average number of lascannon shots that will be required, on average, to take down a single IK.

Even in 8th, even if I spam lascannons, those IKs, point for point, will have the advantage.

That's not good game design.

 Traditio wrote:

ross-128 wrote:Your opponent brought somewhere between 1600 and 2000 points of units, what are you doing with just 3 devs and 6 tacs?

What?

This is an utter non-response.

It doesn't in the slightest answer my point.

My point is that EVEN IF I SPAMMED LASCANNONS, the IKs would still be practically impossible to take down in a turn.

A forteriori, if I DON'T spam lascannons or melta, IKs will be practically invincible.

That's unacceptable.

Look, let's break this down. If you are only facing one, single knight, you have 5 whole turns to kill the thing. Dropping a knight in a 500 point game is a bit of a dick move, but a 500 point list can very likely kill a knight within 5 turns as long as you use cover or something to mitigate incoming damage. And if your opponent complains about a knight costing less than 500, well it's not your fault they didn't use up their whole point budget.

If someone drops all knights in an 1850 or 2000 point game, which most likely is about four knights, a competent 1850-2000 point list most certainly can drop a knight per turn with concentrated fire.

So if you're only bringing 500 points of units, you don't NEED to drop the knight in one turn. That knight is all he's got, you can take all day! As long as you have one model standing when that knight drops, you've won.

If you find yourself in a situation where you've got 5 turns to kill 4 knights, then you're also going to have more than enough points at your disposal to do it.

And even then, no, you can't compare a LR to an IK.

LR have virtually no damage output.

Lascannons will quickly cripple an 8th ed knight if fielded in any kind of numbers.

ross-128 wrote:Look, let's break this down. If you are only facing one, single knight, you have 5 whole turns to kill the thing. Dropping a knight in a 500 point game is a bit of a dick move, but a 500 point list can very likely kill a knight within 5 turns as long as you use cover or something to mitigate incoming damage. And if your opponent complains about a knight costing less than 500, well it's not your fault they didn't use up their whole point budget.

If someone drops all knights in an 1850 or 2000 point game, which most likely is about four knights, a competent 1850-2000 point list most certainly can drop a knight per turn with concentrated fire.

So if you're only bringing 500 points of units, you don't NEED to drop the knight in one turn. That knight is all he's got, you can take all day! As long as you have one model standing when that knight drops, you've won.

If you find yourself in a situation where you've got 5 turns to kill 4 knights, then you're also going to have more than enough points at your disposal to do it.

You are still not understanding me.

THE POINTS LEVEL DOES NOT MATTER.

LASCANNONS WILL NOT BE EFFECTIVE AGAINST IMPERIAL KNIGHTS.

That's the point that I'm trying to make to you.

Let's suppose that we play a 500 point game.

You have that 1 IK.

For that points, I'll likely be able to bring (let's say that I just go unbound):

2 devastator squads (340 points, let's assume).
1 tactical squad (95 points, let's assume).

And, I don't know, a rhino or two?

That's 9 lascannons.

I would need, on average, 3 rounds of shooting with all of my lascannons to take down your IK.

Guess how many Lascannons you can field for the cost of 4 Knights in 8th (based solely on Power Level)?

At least 23. And the 4 Knights can maybe kill 4-5 of those turn 1 if you assign Wounds correctly and go second. Even then, you can cripple the knights more than they can and win the game based on Objectives.

You also have more Command Points so you can re-roll Damage rolls and auto-pass Morale if need be.

You can also arm your Sergeants with combi-meltas for when a Knight that isn't heavily damaged gets too close for comfort, and a Power Fist in case one gets a charge off.



And if you think the Lascannon is the be-all end-all of Anti Vehicle weapons then you're in for a shock... they're not. However, they can now actually do their job.

AND the point is that while Lascannons aren't better at killing one, everything else is AND they degrade.
So in a way Lascannons are better as you don't need to One Shot a knight to decrease its output.

Martel732 wrote:
Lascannons will quickly cripple an 8th ed knight if fielded in any kind of numbers.

No, they won't.

It will take, on average, 23 lascannon shots at BS 4 to take down a single IK. In order simply to reduce it to half-health and start affecting its stats, you'll need like 11 or 12 shots.

If literally every heavy weapon on your side of the board is not a lascannon or a multimelta, you are at a SEVERE disadvantage from the get go.

And yeah. You have 5 turns, at least, to do it. Even if you lose a lascannon or two, you can still make up for it after a few turns.

 Traditio wrote:

ross-128 wrote:Look, let's break this down. If you are only facing one, single knight, you have 5 whole turns to kill the thing. Dropping a knight in a 500 point game is a bit of a dick move, but a 500 point list can very likely kill a knight within 5 turns as long as you use cover or something to mitigate incoming damage. And if your opponent complains about a knight costing less than 500, well it's not your fault they didn't use up their whole point budget.

If someone drops all knights in an 1850 or 2000 point game, which most likely is about four knights, a competent 1850-2000 point list most certainly can drop a knight per turn with concentrated fire.

So if you're only bringing 500 points of units, you don't NEED to drop the knight in one turn. That knight is all he's got, you can take all day! As long as you have one model standing when that knight drops, you've won.

If you find yourself in a situation where you've got 5 turns to kill 4 knights, then you're also going to have more than enough points at your disposal to do it.

You are still not understanding me.

THE POINTS LEVEL DOES NOT MATTER.

LASCANNONS WILL NOT BE EFFECTIVE AGAINST IMPERIAL KNIGHTS.

That's the point that I'm trying to make to you.

Let's suppose that we play a 500 point game.

You have that 1 IK.

For that points, I'll likely be able to bring (let's say that I just go unbound):

2 devastator squads (340 points, let's assume).
1 tactical squad (95 points, let's assume).

And, I don't know, a rhino or two?

That's 9 lascannons.

I would need, on average, 3 rounds of shooting with all of my lascannons to take down your IK.

How is that ineffective? That knight is literally his entire army. 3 rounds to kill it when your time limit is 5 is entirely adequate, it's just a matter of making sure to get your cover saves and allocate as many wounds as possible to bolter models to minimize damage loss.

your logic is somewhat flawed as you have yet to see how Objectives and games are won. A 4 knight army may have a hard time winning a game and a better balanced list may be able to win by just killing one knight.
The damage output does not look to be horrendous at this point so winning the game may be difficult for the knight player. Still too many variables for your assessment to hold water.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And yeah. You have 5 turns, at least, to do it. Even if you lose a lascannon or two, you can still make up for it after a few turns.

Here's the thing, though.

That knight is getting d6 shots against any of those squads, will be reducing marines in cover to a 6+ save (stripping cover entirely from marines out of cover), and will be wounding on 2s.

Furthermore, it has 12 inches of movement in the movement phase and is going to have very good close combat stats.

If the IK player isn't terrible at the game, those lascannons are going to drop like flies.

If we take turn-by-turn losses into account, the odds are stacked against the lascannons.

And here's the thing: the lascannons are supposed to be one of THE antitank weapons.

So even if I spam anti-tank weapons, there's a good chance that I lose handily to the IK.

What happens if I don't spam multimeltas and lascannons?

It's virtually auto-lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
your logic is somewhat flawed as you have yet to see how Objectives and games are won. A 4 knight army may have a hard time winning a game and a better balanced list may be able to win by just killing one knight.
The damage output does not look to be horrendous at this point so winning the game may be difficult for the knight player. Still too many variables for your assessment to hold water.

I'm telling you. This happens virtually every time that GW releases broken, OP bull gak. It's always the exact same song.

First, they say: "We don't have the full stats."

Then, when we have the full stats, they say: "But wait, you haven't seen it on the table."

And then the refrain: "Adapt, scrub, adapt!"

 Traditio wrote:
And even then, no, you can't compare a LR to an IK.

LR have virtually no damage output.

THAT is complete and utter bullocks. a Lemen Russ Battletank in 8th edition, can pack a LOT of firepower, you could configure it to pack 3 Heavy Bolters and the Battle cannon, which will be pretty damn good at clearing out swarms of infantry, with 3 heavy 3 S5 AP -1 shots) and 1 S8 AP -2 D6 dmgh shot. that's gonna be pretty scary at clearing out swarms.

Meanwhile the Imperial Knight is going to have two battle canon shots and... whatever the hell they make the heavy stubber. firepower wise the IK has an advantage but the LRs got pretty damn good firepower at least where infantry is concerned.

and if you meant LR as in Land Raider, the land raider has amazing firepower, having 4 lascanons, 2 heavy bolters and a pintal mounted stormbolter

Brian Devon:

My apologies. When I wrote "LR," I meant "Landraider," not "Leman Russ."

So deploy near the rear. 24" of table to cross, plus 12" deployment zone. (Call it 10", since you can't be ALL THE WAY back.)

2d6 charge means it takes him two turns, minimum, to reach CC, and likely three.

He has d6 shots, hitting on 3s (to start), for 2.4 hits a turn, 2 wounds, and 2 dead marines. Guess what? Those were bolter bros-you choose who gets removed.

You then fire off your full round of lascannons.

Next turn, he crumps two lascannons this time. He tries to charge, but since he needs a 10, he fails, in all likelihood. Maybe he even takes some damage from Overwatch.

You fire off lascannons -2. He's down a peg-he's hitting on 4s now.

He fires, kills another 2 (somehow not being any worse) and makes the charge. Kills 2 in CC, there goes a squad.

You fire lascannons -4. He's down two pegs now.

He fires, kills 1 (bolter bro) and charges, kills 2 (Lascannons).

You retreat, fire off lascannons -8, but probably take him down anyway.

Congrats-you won the game.

Edit: Guys, can we take a moment and ask Tradito what he wants?

Because if he wants a balanced game, I think we can agree with him (his aspiration for the game, that is-not his method).

But if he just wants to win without putting in effort or changing what he does in any way... Well, I think we can all agree that's just BS.

 Traditio wrote:
Brian Devon:

My apologies. When I wrote "LR," I meant "Landraider," not "Leeman Russ."

I realzied you may have meant that, and in 8th edition the Land Raider has gotten a pretty impressive face lift. depending on how it's cost, it may regain it's place as "the Imperium's ultimate weapon" once more

 JNAProductions wrote:
So deploy near the rear. 24" of table to cross, plus 12" deployment zone. (Call it 10", since you can't be ALL THE WAY back.)

2d6 charge means it takes him two turns, minimum, to reach CC, and likely three.

He has d6 shots, hitting on 3s (to start), for 2.4 hits a turn, 2 wounds, and 2 dead marines. Guess what? Those were bolter bros-you choose who gets removed.

And let me stop you right there.

No. That's stupid.

If the IK player targets the tactical squad first, then he's just a bad player.

Turn 1, two bolters don't die. A sarge with a signum and a lascannon devastator die.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And yeah. You have 5 turns, at least, to do it. Even if you lose a lascannon or two, you can still make up for it after a few turns.

Here's the thing, though.

That knight is getting d6 shots against any of those squads, will be reducing marines in cover to a 6+ save (stripping cover entirely from marines out of cover), and will be wounding on 2s.

Furthermore, it has 12 inches of movement in the movement phase and is going to have very good close combat stats.

If the IK player isn't terrible at the game, those lascannons are going to drop like flies.

If we take turn-by-turn losses into account, the odds are stacked against the lascannons.

And here's the thing: the lascannons are supposed to be one of THE antitank weapons.

So even if I spam anti-tank weapons, there's a good chance that I lose handily to the IK.

What happens if I don't spam multimeltas and lascannons?

It's virtually auto-lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
your logic is somewhat flawed as you have yet to see how Objectives and games are won. A 4 knight army may have a hard time winning a game and a better balanced list may be able to win by just killing one knight.
The damage output does not look to be horrendous at this point so winning the game may be difficult for the knight player. Still too many variables for your assessment to hold water.

I'm telling you. This happens virtually every time that GW releases broken, OP bull gak. It's always the exact same song.

First, they say: "We don't have the full stats."

Then, when we have the full stats, they say: "But wait, you haven't seen it on the table."

And then the refrain: "Adapt, scrub, adapt!"

I don't think those d6 shots are nearly as scary as you think.

On average it'll be what, 3 shots? Of those 2 will typically hit. Damage doesn't transfer between models, so at most he can only kill 2 models per turn if they both wound and you fail your saves.

You have 22 models on the table, just between the devs and tacs. He'd need 11 turns to table you. Granted, that's because the thermal cannon is an anti-tank weapon, but still. Allocate those wounds to bolter models and you'll have almost nothing to worry about.

If he decides to go into melee? He gets 4 attacks. About 3 of those will hit. Sure they do 6 damage, but damage doesn't transfer between models! Just shove the tac squad in front and allocate all the wounds to bolter models. Then withdraw from combat in your movement phase, so the devs can hit it with the lascannons. That knight will typically drop before you run out of tacs.

I'm beginning to wonder if traditio actually plays this game at all. I gave up on tacs and devs in 5th ed.