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XV9's with the rifles?

MilkmanAl wrote:
Yeah, Stealth Suits are my choice. They're really the only suit that doesn't have a significantly better use of their support system slot. Commanders and, to a lesser extent, Crisis Suits need weapons (and maybe an ATS), while big suits need ATS, shield generators, target locks, etc. Stealth Suits don't really need any of that.

Yeah, I can only see a Ghostkeel running Fusion Collider + Twin Fusion Blaster ignoring ATS, but not Target Lock. Maybe if you're willing to bring Shield Drones along as well you might get away without a Shield Generator. Darn Tau have too many Fast Attack slots I want to use. I suspect Outrider Detachments will be popular...

Just had my 9th game of 8th. 6-3 so far in the new edition. Played the vaunted Ynnari.

Quick takes:

-Soulburst can be maneuvered around. It is powerful, but if your opponent has to spread out as in Maelstrom, he's not going to have a ton of units eligible for the extra action. Split fire is also a big key to this. If you can kill would-be eligible units with say, one big Crisis team, he's outta luck because your single unit's shooting attacks at disparate units resolve simultaneously. That's probably clear as mud, but the point is, big units of Crisis are really good against Ynnari. The more elite you are, the less of your dead units trigger Soulburst, and the more of his units you can kill in one go with split fire, the less of his units will trigger it.

-Flamer crisis and Darkstrider+Breachers in a fish are staples of mine. They are reliable, cheap and effective.

-Markerlights are meh unless you have a Stormsurge, then they're essential.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Tau-Experimental-Battlesuit-Cadre

Is this worth it for 8th?

I think a unit of 3 XV9s with x2 double bursts are sound on paper for their costs; 93 points a suit that throws 16 shots each with 5 wounds each, photon nade launcher, and they don't pay for their subsystem(RAW). So 48 shots all total, with -1 AP possible with ATS.

O'Ralai's ammo is redonk as well, being able to throw 4 mortal wounds on a vehicle, or dink something valuable from 36" away at str 9. Yeah his marker lights are bunk, but they come with and just add more to the pool.

With a surge and long strike on over watch, an xv109 rocking gak mid field, all with pathfinder support(rapid fire rail rifles anyone?)

Everyone wants to throw 4 fusion guns on 2 commanders, take a ghostkeel, and stealth suits and call it a day without exploring more unconventional options.

Or maybe I'm just taking crazy pills and the phrase High Density Sabot just gets me off.

Gibs55 wrote:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Tau-Experimental-Battlesuit-Cadre

Is this worth it for 8th?

I doubt it. The two big suits are decent but it's annoying that you get XV9s with different weapon load-outs. It's a collection more for painters than gamers I think. If you've got 8 spare burst cannons, and are good at conversions, you could do well.

Big units of suits are an intriguing thought. So far I've only really been thinking of using them in 3s, but there are clear advantages to running lots together. A fair few disadvantages as well, of course.

I second that. Lots of cash for a weird smorgasbord of suits.

BTW, I know plasma is largely regarded as a bad idea for our suits, but the R'Varna unveiling really sealed that coffin for me. An average of 12 shots from long range each with D3 is basically impossible for even Commanders to compete with.

May already have been asked. How do Drones interact with kill points?

Drones count as a separate unit for kill points. So a pair of Drones would be a kill point.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Drones count as a separate unit for kill points. So a pair of Drones would be a kill point.

Its pretty much a given that you will give up first blood and kill points.

you just need to kill them faster and harder to make up for it.

Does the velocity tracker bonus stack?
For example if I have 2 Boradsides, each equipped with a VT.

The rules simply state, that you add +1 to hit rolls for the unit when attacking flyers.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Drones count as a separate unit for kill points. So a pair of Drones would be a kill point.

This is why ITC kill points are better. You actually give up the Power Level of the unit killed, so a Y'Vahra is 20 and a five-man fire warrior unit 2.

 The Shrike wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Drones count as a separate unit for kill points. So a pair of Drones would be a kill point.

This is why ITC kill points are better. You actually give up the Power Level of the unit killed, so a Y'Vahra is 20 and a five-man fire warrior unit 2.

Honestly thats interesting idea.

though what happens with something like a piranha that dumps out a bunch of drones. i dont recall how you purchase them.

How does the ITC scoring work with units that don't fit full power levels, e.g. 7 firewarriors. Power levels are listed for 5 or 10. Do you round up?

So the battle report is pending. I sent it over to my friend for review
Here are a few takeaways I want to post here.

I ran an MSU army: Now and forever until things change.

The fist is Etherial's: With an Etherial in range of any MSU T'au unit, yes put it on a drone to keep up with the Drones. You will never need to roll for moral. Example: 5 model Strike Team, loose 4, auto pass on natural six, so 5+4 = 9 hay that’s the leadership of my Etherial. Works with Drones as well.

Sniper drones and their Marksman got overlooked in battle. If the sniper drones are by a DC they are then hitting on a 3+, marksmen just need to see the unit you are shooting. Both are cheep options to fill Heavy and Elite slots. Pot shooting an important character to death is fun.

If you are not going first and having a large number of guys in your face Shadowsun and another commander using Kauyon is epic. It happened to me and the auto reroll failed hits is nice… super nice.

The Fireblade is a yes for any force sitting a home objective marker. +1 shot for those pule rifles and carbines.

Marker lights are generally not worth it. I ran 4 marker drones, I won't ever run more than 6. One drone was attached to different Strike teams. I will not take a pathfinder team just for marker lights anymore... unless I really want to mark farther away units. They are better taking a heavy gun MSU and sitting in cover.

My Breacher team in a devilfish did stuff. They were overlooked the first round and lived to the end. Paired up with a Darkstrider they will in all likely hood survive a round of Hand-to-hand to then either shoot again or get back into the transport and move on. I didn't run Vespid but may do so in the future, Breacher + Vespid (squad in reserve) makes a good go get that point option.


I ran 2 DC's and 1 VT on my stealth suits I will invert that for future games. My drones never left the 6in radius of the center suit. VT's are cheaper and aid in the random Airborne shooting.

Command points at a 2000 point game I had 13 command points. Without fear of needing to make a leadership check I used the exclusively to reroll my heavy weapons hits and wounds. I rarely accepted a 3 wounds or less on my rail gun hits. Being MSU T’au should have no problem maximizing their FB, HRR, and RG shots.

Asura Varuna wrote:How does the ITC scoring work with units that don't fit full power levels, e.g. 7 firewarriors. Power levels are listed for 5 or 10. Do you round up?

You round up to the nearest increment of PL they give you.

In your example, the nearest increment of PL for Breachers is 5 Fire warriors, but with 7, you need to round up to 10. You would pay 10 firewarrior's worth of PL for your 7 Firewarriors.

Its basically a "nothing is going to stop you for putting every goddamn model you own on the table, but incomplete squads are gonna be treated as complete squads, so its gonna be inefficient to do so."

Ishotfirst wrote:So the battle report is pending. I sent it over to my friend for review
Here are a few takeaways I want to post here.

I ran an MSU army: Now and forever until things change.

The fist is Etherial's: With an Etherial in range of any MSU T'au unit, yes put it on a drone to keep up with the Drones. You will never need to roll for moral. Example: 5 model Strike Team, loose 4, auto pass on natural six, so 5+4 = 9 hay that’s the leadership of my Etherial. Works with Drones as well.

That's definitely a benefit of MSU these days. I don't plan on running infantry/drones in numbers higher than 8 per unit (edit: Kroot being a rare exception) for exactly that reason...

Sniper drones and their Marksman got overlooked in battle. If the sniper drones are by a DC they are then hitting on a 3+, marksmen just need to see the unit you are shooting. Both are cheep options to fill Heavy and Elite slots. Pot shooting an important character to death is fun.

Cheap to fill a Heavy Slot is about the only kind thing I can think to say about the Sniper Drones, but I haven't actually played them yet.

In your battle, how many characters did the Sniper Drones take out? What effect did it have on the game? Did their presence/position modify your opponent's strategies? Was it hard to hide from the Firesight Marksman?

Command points at a 2000 point game I had 13 command points. Without fear of needing to make a leadership check I used the exclusively to reroll my heavy weapons hits and wounds. I rarely accepted a 3 wounds or less on my rail gun hits. Being MSU T’au should have no problem maximizing their FB, HRR, and RG shots.

I was under the impression that each CP ability could only be used once per phase (or was it turn)?

That means you're getting a maximum of, what, 6 or 7 rerolls per game, if you're just using it to reroll shots/hits/wounds/damage... Maybe 6 or 7 if you use a CP to reroll in every enemy's charge phase (rerolling overwatch shots/to-wound/whatever).

Since, as you've stated, morale isn't really an issue... you could probably modify your list to have less CP and be basically fine without it!

Take this with a grain of salt as we know customer response teams are never the most accurate source of information. I sent this email to Forgeworld

"Hi there,


Apologies if this is the wrong place for this.


In your Index: Xenos it list the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 as having a Heavy Rail Cannon which is the Macro type.


Macro type weapons cannot be fired if the model has moved unless it has the Titanic keyword.


The Tiger Shark is a Flyer that must move a minimum of 20''. It does not have the "Hover" special rule allowing it to stop.


It also does not have the "Titanic" keyword.


Does this mean its main gun is completely useless, it can't fire it?"

I got this response:

"For now the tiger shark rules are as follows
For the Tiger Shark it should have the following text: Titan-killer: A model with this rule may fire a Macro type weapon whilst moving even if it is not Titanic, but on any turn in which the controlling player elects to fire a Macro weapon while moving it may not fire weapons other than those with the Macro type until the start of the controlling player's next turn."

I'd rather have Titanic, but that is better than not being able to fire the HRC at all.
I'd use only the cheapest configuration, though

Ishotfirst wrote:

I ran 2 DC's and 1 VT on my stealth suits I will invert that for future games. My drones never left the 6in radius of the center suit. VT's are cheaper and aid in the random Airborne shooting.

No need to put more than 1 VT in your units. 1 already gives its benefit to the entire unit!

Sniper drones and their Marksman got overlooked in battle. If the sniper drones are by a DC they are then hitting on a 3+, marksmen just need to see the unit you are shooting. Both are cheep options to fill Heavy and Elite slots. Pot shooting an important character to death is fun.

Cheap to fill a Heavy Slot is about the only kind thing I can think to say about the Sniper Drones, but I haven't actually played them yet.

In your battle, how many characters did the Sniper Drones take out? What effect did it have on the game? Did their presence/position modify your opponent's strategies? Was it hard to hide from the Firesight Marksman?

It was rather easy to hide them. They just took the place of where the pathfinders would have been. (edit here) Should have been more descriptive. Most players will see our snipers as weak because we do not dole out mortal wounds like the others. Given that, many opponents do not then renegotiate their tactic. However, once you start hitting their character's they will change their tune really quick. The sniper drones do have an added benefit to impose a -1 to hit roles as long as they are not the closet unit. The imposing of a -1 modifier is super powerful considering re-roles occur before modifiers are taken into account. So if you hit on a 3+ and role a 3 you don't re-roll (if you had the ability to do so normally) and just miss. They could target the spotters but they receive +2 from cover instead of +1. Snipers Drones are a good option to play with, but not focus on, because they will make a player choose between shooting the obvious heavy guns or trying to pick off the Character killers. (end of Edit)

Command points at a 2000 point game I had 13 command points. Without fear of needing to make a leadership check I used the exclusively to reroll my heavy weapons hits and wounds. I rarely accepted a 3 wounds or less on my rail gun hits. Being MSU T’au should have no problem maximizing their FB, HRR, and RG shots.

I was under the impression that each CP ability could only be used once per phase (or was it turn)?

That means you're getting a maximum of, what, 6 or 7 rerolls per game, if you're just using it to reroll shots/hits/wounds/damage... Maybe 6 or 7 if you use a CP to reroll in every enemy's charge phase (rerolling overwatch shots/to-wound/whatever).

Since, as you've stated, morale isn't really an issue... you could probably modify your list to have less CP and be basically fine without it!

I will look again at the rules again but it looks like you can use them whenever you want to make a re-roll so long as your not breaking the only 1 re-roll only ever rule.

Ishotfirst wrote:

I was under the impression that each CP ability could only be used once per phase (or was it turn)?

I will look again at the rules again but it looks like you can use them whenever you want to make a re-roll so long as your not breaking the only 1 re-roll only ever rule.

No, each stratagem can only be used once per phase. Rerollling a dice using CP is a stratagem so you cant do it more than once per phase.

That Tiger Shark ruling is crippling. Wow. You basically get to pay for the extra weapons but never use them. So it's now nearly 600pts for 2 bigass guns? We can do a lot better than that. That firepower is certainly on a durable frame, but man, an Y'Vahra is going to lay down way more damage than that for 2/3 the price.

The FW Hammerheads confuse and sadden me. We briefly mused over their increased costs earlier, but it's hitting home how much that sucks. They'd both be pretty decent tanks if they cost the same as their codex counterparts at baseline. Maybe we'd have a reason to run vehicles for the first time in 3 editions.

MilkmanAl wrote:
That Tiger Shark ruling is crippling. Wow. You basically get to pay for the extra weapons but never use them. So it's now nearly 600pts for 2 bigass guns? We can do a lot better than that. That firepower is certainly on a durable frame, but man, an Y'Vahra is going to lay down way more damage than that for 2/3 the price.

For anything that isn't a Titan, that's probably true. Macro seems like it might make the difference if you've got Imperial Knights or the like in your sights.

The FW Hammerheads confuse and sadden me. We briefly mused over their increased costs earlier, but it's hitting home how much that sucks. They'd both be pretty decent tanks if they cost the same as their codex counterparts at baseline. Maybe we'd have a reason to run vehicles for the first time in 3 editions.

Then I have some Good News! Apparently the FW Hammerhead point costs in the index reflect their default weapons in their cost.

Rejoice!

Makes them potentially manageably useful, rather than horribly overpriced.

For anything that isn't a Titan, that's probably true. Macro seems like it might make the difference if you've got Imperial Knights or the like in your sights

True. That's a lot of hurt on exceptionally big targets.

Then I have some Good News!

Woohoo! So...that basically makes the Heavy Bombardment option an outright better Broadside? I guess you lose ATS and drone protection, but that's a relatively small price to pay for more toughness, double the wounds, and BS2+, assuming Longstrike. I like the sound of the twin plasma cannon, too.

My Good News is, alas, limited to them correcting the point issue - no word on whether they correct the keyword problems that prevent the FW Hammerheads from benefiting from Longstrike.

The Twin Heavy Burst Cannon seems quite impressive, I must say. That's Riptide levels of firepower coming out of half a Riptide's point cost. *sigh*

MoD_Legion wrote:

Ishotfirst wrote:

I was under the impression that each CP ability could only be used once per phase (or was it turn)?

I will look again at the rules again but it looks like you can use them whenever you want to make a re-roll so long as your not breaking the only 1 re-roll only ever rule.

No, each stratagem can only be used once per phase. Rerollling a dice using CP is a stratagem so you cant do it more than once per phase.

I am failing to see where that is stated in the rules. Can you give me the page it is on? Or was this something later posted in developers commentary?

The rules stated are: ... You can spend CP to use a stratagem before or durning a battle. Each time you use a Stratagem, reduce you CP total by the appropriate amount. If you do not have enough CP for the specific Stratagem, you cannot use it. Unless otherwise stated, you can use the same Stratagem multiple time during the course of a battle.

The different Stratagems available to players depend on the mission they are playing. Players can always use the three Stratagems presented below, but some missions, battle zones and expansions my introduce additional Stratagems to you battles.

Ishotfirst wrote:

MoD_Legion wrote:

Ishotfirst wrote:

I was under the impression that each CP ability could only be used once per phase (or was it turn)?

I will look again at the rules again but it looks like you can use them whenever you want to make a re-roll so long as your not breaking the only 1 re-roll only ever rule.

No, each stratagem can only be used once per phase. Rerollling a dice using CP is a stratagem so you cant do it more than once per phase.

I am failing to see where that is stated in the rules. Can you give me the page it is on? Or was this something later posted in developers commentary?

The rules stated are: ... You can spend CP to use a stratagem before or durning a battle. Each time you use a Stratagem, reduce you CP total by the appropriate amount. If you do not have enough CP for the specific Stratagem, you cannot use it. Unless otherwise stated, you can use the same Stratagem multiple time during the course of a battle.

The different Stratagems available to players depend on the mission they are playing. Players can always use the three Stratagems presented below, but some missions, battle zones and expansions my introduce additional Stratagems to you battles.

Well, you make a fair point, since the page detailing CP (224, I think) doesn't mention a limit, does it?

Chalk that up to GW formatting.

In the book, take a look at what my photocopy suggests is page 215, in the box "Matched Play Mission Rules":

Under "Strategic Discipline" you'll find the rule limiting the same Strategem from being used more than once during any single phase.

This was also mentioned as a restriction in GW's teaser article on Strategems (among the last paragraphs).

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
That Tiger Shark ruling is crippling. Wow. You basically get to pay for the extra weapons but never use them. So it's now nearly 600pts for 2 bigass guns? We can do a lot better than that. That firepower is certainly on a durable frame, but man, an Y'Vahra is going to lay down way more damage than that for 2/3 the price.

For anything that isn't a Titan, that's probably true. Macro seems like it might make the difference if you've got Imperial Knights or the like in your sights.

The FW Hammerheads confuse and sadden me. We briefly mused over their increased costs earlier, but it's hitting home how much that sucks. They'd both be pretty decent tanks if they cost the same as their codex counterparts at baseline. Maybe we'd have a reason to run vehicles for the first time in 3 editions.

Then I have some Good News! Apparently the FW Hammerhead point costs in the index reflect their default weapons in their cost.

Rejoice!

Makes them potentially manageably useful, rather than horribly overpriced.

If and when they'll make it official, the FW hammerheads would become quite powerful choices.

The problem is, these do not compute. if you take the base hammerhead cost, and add the weapon costs of these variants, you DONT get the price listed there.

So whatever is going on, its not the "armed and ready" price listed in the model list.

Yeah, just more FW shoddiness. They did an awful job with these releases. It's really too bad.

The costs listed for the FW HHs are about what they should be including the main weapons. That notion speaks volumes to the rest of the codex units the Hammerheads compare to, such as the Broadsides and Riptides mentioned above.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
My Good News is, alas, limited to them correcting the point issue - no word on whether they correct the keyword problems that prevent the FW Hammerheads from benefiting from Longstrike.

The Twin Heavy Burst Cannon seems quite impressive, I must say. That's Riptide levels of firepower coming out of half a Riptide's point cost. *sigh*

Agreed. An XV9 + 4 drones is hidden win-sauce, you get a very effecient fielding of the 8pt dual pulse carbine gun drone + the dual THBC.

The big guy tanks the wounds, the little guys can tank the bigger multi-D wounds.

All for the low low price of 130-ish points.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Ishotfirst wrote:

MoD_Legion wrote:

Ishotfirst wrote:

I was under the impression that each CP ability could only be used once per phase (or was it turn)?

I will look again at the rules again but it looks like you can use them whenever you want to make a re-roll so long as your not breaking the only 1 re-roll only ever rule.

No, each stratagem can only be used once per phase. Rerollling a dice using CP is a stratagem so you cant do it more than once per phase.

I am failing to see where that is stated in the rules. Can you give me the page it is on? Or was this something later posted in developers commentary?

The rules stated are: ... You can spend CP to use a stratagem before or durning a battle. Each time you use a Stratagem, reduce you CP total by the appropriate amount. If you do not have enough CP for the specific Stratagem, you cannot use it. Unless otherwise stated, you can use the same Stratagem multiple time during the course of a battle.

The different Stratagems available to players depend on the mission they are playing. Players can always use the three Stratagems presented below, but some missions, battle zones and expansions my introduce additional Stratagems to you battles.

Well, you make a fair point, since the page detailing CP (224, I think) doesn't mention a limit, does it?

Chalk that up to GW formatting.

In the book, take a look at what my photocopy suggests is page 215, in the box "Matched Play Mission Rules":

Under "Strategic Discipline" you'll find the rule limiting the same Strategem from being used more than once during any single phase.

This was also mentioned as a restriction in GW's teaser article on Strategems (among the last paragraphs).

I would agree that is true if you were playing a Matched Play format as opposed to an Open Play or Narrative Play.
As a side note If you are a Psychic based army Matched Play is super terrible for you because similar restrictions apply.