Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It was made a few weeks ago yes. And then an other one yesterday.

How about running two Commanders, one with two Ion guns and two Burst cannons, the second with two Fusion blasters, ATS, and Shield generator; both with a gun drone and supporting a bunch of Kroot infantry? Higher values will add Stealth suits, but that will be another topic.

Mostly I am just trying to figure out Commander suit loads fir ganes 1000 points and under.

Thank you

Well overcharged CIBs and fusion blasters have the same strength, so the toughness of the target isn't an issue.

But yes, fusion commanders do significantly more damage to big lumps, like vehicles. The CIB's worse AP and lower damage per hit really hurt it against anything with a good armour save. The difference is a bit less against things like knights that have invulnerables, meaning the FB's AP gets wasted.

The good thing about the CIB is the ability to chuck 9 shots into an infantry unit. But even that isn't actually much better - for instance if you wanted to remove Primaris marines from cover you'd be better off using the fusion blasters. Even if you do kill 6 guard or orks, that just isn't very impressive.

I'm also not sure why you'd bother with burst cannon commanders. I think it will always be better to take coldstars, and in any case S5 shooting is easily available in many other ways.

No need for ATS on fusion really.

 doc1234 wrote:
Has anyome given Piranhas a try? They seem to have a similar damage output as XV25s, but can't take the ATS. Guess that'd make the FB better than the BC on them, as if your after more S5 you may as well take the suits unless I'm wrong?

Well, for 71 points, you get 6 wounds worth of T5, Save 4+, and 12 pulse shots with a really high movement and no morale issue at all.

Compare this to 72 pts of Fire Warriors, who are 9 wounds of T3, Sv 4+, getting 9 or 18 pulse shots, moving slowly and losing offense as they take wounds.
Or to 72 pts of Gun Drones, which would be 9 wounds of T4, Sv 4+, getting 36 (!) pulse shots and moving fairly fast but having to target the nearest thing and having serious morale problems.

It's a tricky question! Do you need raw firepower? Drones. Do you want range? Fire Warriors. Do you want backfield disruption? Piranha.

They all have about the same durability (drones somewhat worse due to morale), with firepower at least comparable, so it'll come down to playstyle.

Personally, I think Piranha always have a place as they fit a "bully" space well, letting them chase down models that lack heavy weapons and shove them around, disrupt firelanes by blocking LoS and movement (and can just fly off if charged), and engage in melee to tie up heavy weapon squads once a game or so.

8th is all about combined arms, so some fast disruptors along with gunlines and mobile troops helps make the salad bowl approach to winning an option.

(That said? I don't support the fusion version. They can't one-shot a tank and *absolutely* cannot survive the return fire. Stick to what they're good at: Pushing around weenies.)

 Haechi wrote:
No need for ATS on fusion really.

Indeed. This is why we're comparing a commander with 4 fusion blasters against one with 3 CIBs and ATS.

As for piranhas, yeah I quite like the idea of them. I'm not sure I could make them do anything amazing but they are great little models so I'd like to.

He said two fusion, ats, shield generator.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You want to troll the enemy? take a huge team of shield drones to camp objectives.

Its like "what you gonna do about it? invest mortal wounds on my 8 point models?"

Bolter vs 4 Shield Drones

4 / (1 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 2/3) = 36 Shots

Lasguns vs 4 Shield Drones

4 / (1 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 2/3) = 72 Shots

 Haechi wrote:
No need for ATS on fusion really.

Fusion tends to be within CC threat range and ATS helps you if you end up in CC. I am starting to use more ATS as it’s often beneficial to either charge into CC or let myself get charged, then on the turn after jump out and shoot, then recharge. The idea is let a few drones take the wounds, do some ok damage back from CC and deny the enemy from shooting you while you disengage and shoot back. Works really well against some targets.

At this point with the addition of two more shots for the sun-shark is it worth putting onto the battlefield?

It could be worth while but you would never be able to over clock the guns without the marker light hit.

Why not? Even if the overcharging fails, its only the drones that take the hit I thought ?

 doc1234 wrote:
Why not? Even if the overcharging fails, its only the drones that take the hit I thought ?

Yep. It puts out some very potent firepower. I don't think you would want more than one possibly two.

 Ishotfirst wrote:
At this point with the addition of two more shots for the sun-shark is it worth putting onto the battlefield?

It could be worth while but you would never be able to over clock the guns without the marker light hit.

You shouldn't be overcharging the drones regardless

Even with reroll 1s, it's a heavy weapon on an always moving platform... meaning rolls of 2 will blow the drone too

As well as always moving means that you would be needing 5s to hit instead of 4s

Finally, You will usually be in rapid fire range of something

vs T4 MEQ
Rapid - 4 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 1.33
Over - 4 * 2 * 1/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = 1.11

vs T7 Tank
Rapid - 4 * 2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1.0
Over - 4 * 2 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.88

===========================

Before buffs vs MEQ
Rapid - 2 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.66
Over - 2 * 2 * 1/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = 0.55

Rapid - 2 * 2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 0.5
Over - 2 * 2 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.44

Damn, didn't noticed the weapon became Heavy when overcharging...

Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.

You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.

You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.

Nothing specific, some chatter on Advanced Tau Tactica, and then some talk on Front Line Gaming's Podcast where Reece and Frankie were complaining about Commander spam and how powerful the model is. Those guys seem to have some kind of power when it comes to decision and balance making, and a hatred for Tau, so it doesn't seem completely crazy that a nerf is coming.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.

You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.

Maybe it would limit the weapons to 3, but a fourth option could be taken that isn't a weapon. So, 3 weapons and a support system. Which many commander builds already use.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.

You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.

Maybe it would limit the weapons to 3, but a fourth option could be taken that isn't a weapon. So, 3 weapons and a support system. Which many commander builds already use.

I've heard this also. Regardless, not going to be building my three Commander kits until the codex drops.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.

You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.

Maybe it would limit the weapons to 3, but a fourth option could be taken that isn't a weapon. So, 3 weapons and a support system. Which many commander builds already use.

I've heard this also. Regardless, not going to be building my three Commander kits until the codex drops.

That is wise. Although magnets are a good idea regardless of whether you build them now or later.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Anyone anticipating a Commander nerf with the Tau Codex (whenever it comes out)? I had heard talk of reducing it's weapons options down to three.

You got a source on that? I could see a slight points increase on the Commander while our other suits (besides Stealth Suits) got a points decrease, but it wouldn't make much sense to drop weapon options down to 3 as that would be the same as regular Crisis Suits and Commanders explicitly wear a more advanced battlesuit than them.

Nothing specific, some chatter on Advanced Tau Tactica, and then some talk on Front Line Gaming's Podcast where Reece and Frankie were complaining about Commander spam and how powerful the model is. Those guys seem to have some kind of power when it comes to decision and balance making, and a hatred for Tau, so it doesn't seem completely crazy that a nerf is coming.

I mean, without a legit source on it I would be very reticent on posting anything about this on any forum. Do we have any proof that the FLG guys have any input now? I'm well aware of how much they were involved in the playtesting for 8th, as well as the rumors of the anti-Tau sentiment they brought to the playtesting table during that time (which I still have yet to see real proof of), but do they have any input now? Given that ITC is already making house rules with regards to 8th (with regards to how deployment affects 1st turn and such) it seems like they don't have any real say anymore.

Not necessarily defending FLG and ITC here, I'm well aware of the evidence of their apparent anti-Tau bias, but I'm also very much against declaring that the team designing and testing 40k is against us. It breeds a victim mentality that is not healthy for the community as a whole. Unless there is actual evidence of it beyond forum chatter and people bitching and moaning on a podcast, let's refrain from using such stuff as proof that we have nerfs incoming. At least in this thread, no need for the chicken little mentality that dakka has a hard-on for spreading into this thread as well.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
I mean, without a legit source on it I would be very reticent on posting anything about this on any forum. Do we have any proof that the FLG guys have any input now? I'm well aware of how much they were involved in the playtesting for 8th, as well as the rumors of the anti-Tau sentiment they brought to the playtesting table during that time (which I still have yet to see real proof of), but do they have any input now? Given that ITC is already making house rules with regards to 8th (with regards to how deployment affects 1st turn and such) it seems like they don't have any real say anymore.

Not necessarily defending FLG and ITC here, I'm well aware of the evidence of their apparent anti-Tau bias, but I'm also very much against declaring that the team designing and testing 40k is against us. It breeds a victim mentality that is not healthy for the community as a whole. Unless there is actual evidence of it beyond forum chatter and people bitching and moaning on a podcast, let's refrain from using such stuff as proof that we have nerfs incoming. At least in this thread, no need for the chicken little mentality that dakka has a hard-on for spreading into this thread as well.

Broadsides costing as much as they do isn't proof?

Even if they reduce commanders to 3 weapons, people will still use them.

They will solve this if they:
a- reduce Crisis cost
b- either improve Crisis BS or re-tool the markerlight table to let us get 2 +1 to hit results (or bring the +1 one to the third result instead of fifth).

Until they do a and b, people will keep using Commanders.
It's a similar situation of Tyranids back in 7th - very few good units and the rest were really bad stuff occupying pages in the codex/imperial armour.

---

Before nerfing the good stuff, turn the bad stuff good enough to compete with the good stuff. Our Commanders only help the army ONCE per game, and only ONE of them can do it. You need to pay for named folks to get another use of Kauyon of Mont'ka.
Had Commanders a re-roll failed to hit rolls of 1 aura (like most captain-like units do), we'd see a increase of backline commanders and commanders dropping with other stuff nearby (like they did back in 7th!).

 Ishotfirst wrote:
At this point with the addition of two more shots for the sun-shark is it worth putting onto the battlefield?

It could be worth while but you would never be able to over clock the guns without the marker light hit.

The Sun Shark's all about those bombs, I think. 10 infantry = 5 mortal wounds on average, dropped in the movement phase no less, so you can toss a reroll on one if needed.

That's savage.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The series I'd do is:

Small reduction in Commander cost.
Larger reduction in Crisis cost.

But, Wak giveth, Wak taketh away.

All suits are limited to two (yes, two!) weapon options, with standard suits having room for 1 support system and commanders having room for 2 support systems.

This serves as a balancing factor, moving them towards a less spammy option but still giving them options. Their job moves from "OVERWHELMING FIREPOWER" to "Right tool at the right place at the right time".

But, you know ... I'm kind of a radical.

Source or not, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see significant changes for Tau when the new codex appears. Just look at the marine book and all the changes that's making.

I've got no idea what the changes will be - only that they could be substantial. Septs, relics (or signature systems) and tons of stratagems will all make a massive difference. Points are certain to change as well.

The outcome of all of this is that I think it's a really bad time to spend money on Tau, or anyone else whose codex isn't out yet. Things are changing too fast right now. Imagine at all those people with £250 worth of storm ravens they probably haven't taken the wrapping off yet. Imagine if that was you with a stack of commanders in 6 months time.

The good news is that hopefully a lot of the issues in the current index list will be fixed. So don't melt your riptides down just yet, and maybe don't remortgage your house for forgeworld stuff.

It does mean that this discussion feels a bit redundant to me, for now. We can see which units are good today, but only for a few months.

Mandragola wrote:
Source or not, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see significant changes for Tau when the new codex appears. Just look at the marine book and all the changes that's making.

I've got no idea what the changes will be - only that they could be substantial. Septs, relics (or signature systems) and tons of stratagems will all make a massive difference. Points are certain to change as well.

The outcome of all of this is that I think it's a really bad time to spend money on Tau, or anyone else whose codex isn't out yet. Things are changing too fast right now. Imagine at all those people with £250 worth of storm ravens they probably haven't taken the wrapping off yet. Imagine if that was you with a stack of commanders in 6 months time.

The good news is that hopefully a lot of the issues in the current index list will be fixed. So don't melt your riptides down just yet, and maybe don't remortgage your house for forgeworld stuff.

It does mean that this discussion feels a bit redundant to me, for now. We can see which units are good today, but only for a few months.

This is sound advice. I recently sent an email to GW with some of my concerns about the current ruleset for the Tau, but I don't expect anything except at least getting my voice heard.

Yeah, I was happy to see that points changes (both in PL ainda points per se) will happen in the codex. Also, it was good ours isn't one in the first batch, so the future FAQs will be already applied to the book

Mandragola wrote:
Source or not, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see significant changes for Tau when the new codex appears. Just look at the marine book and all the changes that's making.

I've got no idea what the changes will be - only that they could be substantial. Septs, relics (or signature systems) and tons of stratagems will all make a massive difference. Points are certain to change as well.

The outcome of all of this is that I think it's a really bad time to spend money on Tau, or anyone else whose codex isn't out yet. Things are changing too fast right now. Imagine at all those people with £250 worth of storm ravens they probably haven't taken the wrapping off yet. Imagine if that was you with a stack of commanders in 6 months time.

The good news is that hopefully a lot of the issues in the current index list will be fixed. So don't melt your riptides down just yet, and maybe don't remortgage your house for forgeworld stuff.

It does mean that this discussion feels a bit redundant to me, for now. We can see which units are good today, but only for a few months.

I would agree with the sentiment on spending money, with the caveat that it depends on what you're buying. Buying 6 Commanders or as many Gun Drones as you can find is probably a bad idea. Buying more Fire Warriors or more battlesuits is probably ok. Although I do believe that we will be one of the last codices to be updated since we were one of the last major releases in 7th prior to Gathering Storm. Given that GW is refocusing 40k on to Imperium vs Chaos, I don't think its a stretch to assume that the Xenos faction that had one of the last major releases of the previous edition (with multiple new kits being released as well) is probably gonna be at the back of the line in terms of 8th updates.

I just bought 2 Commanders, 12 Crisis Suits, extra Drones off ebay, and 12 Stealth Suits for my 2000 point Tau army. I haven't seriously played 40k since 5th edition, and I used to play Eldar. I am not worried about codex change once the Tau dex hits, because everything will be magnetized. If your playing a Tau army and do not magnetize, then you need to build a different army. Seriously. There are just too many options, and things will change every single edition. Crisis suits in particular have so many different options you would be a fool to glue on those 2 CIB's and just forget about them.

I propose that we as a community rename this thread to " Magnetized Tau Tactica " and any other thread we speak about Tau, always refer to the army as " Magnetized Tau " therefore people who are new to 40k and are just getting started understand what they need to do if they decide to build Tau. Save the noobs.

 doc1234 wrote:
Has anyome given Piranhas a try? They seem to have a similar damage output as XV25s, but can't take the ATS. Guess that'd make the FB better than the BC on them, as if your after more S5 you may as well take the suits unless I'm wrong?

I think they are great. Yes, if you do JUST math and compare them to a static line of gun drones shooting at a single target (to avoid their target protocols) it is not as good.


However, while good input, it is just an abstract comparison.

Piranhas are useful because of their speed and firepower. I use them for zipping around taking objectives, and shooting where needed.

it usually takes a bit of dedicated firepower to remove them as well. Finally, if I decide I am going to run a list that will leverage seekers (not always a good choice) they are yet another seeker platform.

Remember - a good player is more than just math - its deployment, target priority, movement, reading your opponent and have a flexible plan.