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Are flamer crisis playable without homing beacon? and if so, how?

 Talamare wrote:

Pottsey wrote:
The Tidewall Gunrig is starting to become a main unit in my army it can be really good backed up with marker lights. With +1BS and reroll’s 1’s those 2 shots can do high damage. Last night it won man of the match when it did 15 wounds on turn 1 killing a 13 wound target. It massively out damaged Longstrike. With marker support broadsides and Gunrigs have so much more damage potential then Longstrike and hammerheads.

I wonder...
Base 139 / ((2 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (2 * 1/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 78.18
ML1 139 / ((2 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (2 * 14/36 * 1/6 * 2)) = 67.01
ML5 139 / ((2 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (2 * 21/36 * 1/6 * 2)) = 44.67

LongRails
Base 175 / ((1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 5/6 * 1/3 * 2)) = 70
ML1 175 / ((1 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 35/36 * 1/3 * 2)) = 60

HHRails
Base 155 / ((1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 87.18
LR 155 / ((1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 5/6 * 1/6 * 2)) = 69.75
ML5 155 / ((1 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 35/36 * 1/6 * 2)) = 59.78


Story checks out, but there are some minor issues with using the Gunrig, but overall Nice.

When I said more damage potential I was more thinking about the lines of peak damage. What I came to realise in the last few games is it’s not just about average damage sometimes it’s about peak damage potential that matters. Broadsides and Gunrigs can potentially kill at long range 13+ wound targets in 1 turn that hammerheads and Long take 2 turns to kill even when Long has the higher average damage. Saying that the Hamerheads are more flexible due to the movement advantage and sub ammo for when there are no suitable big targets.

 Haechi wrote:
Are flamer crisis playable without homing beacon? and if so, how?

They are playable certainly. You just run the risk of them getting shot to pieces before they do anything. If your board has full cover terrain sure why not, but they really are amazing with the homing beacon imo.

Pottsey wrote:
When I said more damage potential I was more thinking about the lines of peak damage. What I came to realise in the last few games is it’s not just about average damage sometimes it’s about peak damage potential that matters. Broadsides and Gunrigs can potentially kill at long range 13+ wound targets in 1 turn that hammerheads and Long take 2 turns to kill even when Long has the higher average damage. Saying that the Hamerheads are more flexible due to the movement advantage and sub ammo for when there are no suitable big targets.

but... the math proved you right.
They do have potential to be our best long range anti tank.

Well done on spreading the info on a rarely used, yet incredibly powerful unit.

Lower was better in the math you quoted, it means costs less points for the average damage.
Which means that not only do they have a great maximum as you stated, but they have a pretty good average.

Their downside of course is pretty insane deviation... The standard expectation is for them to miss.
They basically NEED support to function.

While it carries the chance for epic turns, the chance of it happening are quite low. It's literally gambling at that point, which I'm personally not a fan.

Now I'm wondering how viable Crisis suits are with an ATS and no other weapons, used as a mobile melee unit.

Because I'm a madman.

Wakshaani wrote:
Now I'm wondering how viable Crisis suits are with an ATS and no other weapons, used as a mobile melee unit.

Because I'm a madman.

They're not going to hit a shed even if they were inside of it. Better to have some weapons there.

Wakshaani wrote:
Now I'm wondering how viable Crisis suits are with an ATS and no other weapons, used as a mobile melee unit.

Because I'm a madman.

Use Bodyguards, they are all Shas'vre with +1 Attack for only 5 points

Also, bring Stims and Shield for 66 points, 198 points for 3
Then you're T5 with 3+ 4++ 6+++

Let's simulate a fight!
...
vs Warp Talons! (6, 196 points)
Shas'vre - 5+ Hits, 3+ Wounds, 9 Attacks Total, 9 Wounds Total with 6+++
Talons - 3+ Hits, 5+ Wounds, 13 Attacks Total, 6 Wounds Total

Shas'vre Assault - 9 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 1 expected Wound
Talons Assault - 13 * 2/3 * 20/36 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 2 expected Wounds

Okay, yea... nope
Pack it up, we're done! This was a terrible idea...
(Berserkers... 11 for 187
((((11 * 2)+1) * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6) + (11 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 5/6)) * 2 = 10.55 expected wounds)

Well obviously they're not gonna punch dedicated melee troops, but as unit that swings around and ties up gun units, using their speed to flit around, maybe?

I dunno.

Just spitballing here. They need to survive more than do damage. In theory.

It’s taking a bit of getting used to with a change of mind-set but I am finding it’s often very useful now for Tau to charge into CC. Multiple times now I have benefited from charging in tanks and/or suits with fly into CC, then withdraw, shoot and charge next turn. Against sensible targets of course. It’s one of the reasons why I now take ATS and use more shield drones over pure gun drones.

Due to the FNP change I have also been using units made up of 4 shield drones. They just park on objects or when possible hide out of LOS then move/advanced on the last turn. I also use them to CC things to slow them down. Been working well so far. I gained 4 VP by thing this in my last game.

Pottsey wrote:
Multiple times now I have benefited from charging in tanks and/or suits with fly into CC, then withdraw, shoot and charge next turn.

Just keep in mind when we fall back we can only shoot. Not charge. Its right under falling back in the main rule book.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Pottsey wrote:
Multiple times now I have benefited from charging in tanks and/or suits with fly into CC, then withdraw, shoot and charge next turn.

Just keep in mind when we fall back we can only shoot. Not charge. Its right under falling back in the main rule book.

This is a good reminder. I certainly need to be more mindful about this because I've done it once or twice without a second thought.

Does anyone feel that having some forgeworld units (y'vahra, xv-9, Shas, ect.) in your 2k army help out the tau shooting power?

I've been finding that the Ghostkeel, Commanders, and boardsides are getting picked off too quick.

I am currently fielding 2 commanders, 1 ghostkeel and 3 broadsides in my 2k army. Also a unit of 3 crisis suits as well.

sooo...speaking forgeworld...

How do people view the Ta'unar now? kinda feels like it got hit with the nerfbat hardcore to me.

And is it just me or did they eff up and the Tigershark ISNT a Titanic, yet it has a Macro weapon? (on a flier with minimum move at that...) lol....

trinhm03 wrote:
Does anyone feel that having some forgeworld units (y'vahra, xv-9, Shas, ect.) in your 2k army help out the tau shooting power?

I've been finding that the Ghostkeel, Commanders, and boardsides are getting picked off too quick.

I am currently fielding 2 commanders, 1 ghostkeel and 3 broadsides in my 2k army. Also a unit of 3 crisis suits as well.

The Y'Vhara REALLY helps increase the firepower of the army, and really, the Tau need the help until we get our codex. Anyone complaining about Tau using FW units really haven't made the effort to examine and compare what Tau currently have compared to other armies.

Got my Y'vahra the other day and I'm in progress of building it. I'm really eager to try it on the table and I would like ro hear some experiences of you guys. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up drones with it's speed to have some protection in midfield.

I've had decent luck just running drones up the table and moving the Y'Vahra somewhat defensively until an obvious target presents itself. I also rather enjoy moving them full-speed-ahead and dropping in my Commanders and maybe some flamer suits near them for drone support. That's a big pain in your opponent's butt since they basically need to kill all that stuff immediately or get fried again the next turn, and that's going to take a bunch of firepower. It's basically an unassaultable group of guys, too, thanks to all the flamers going on.

trinhm03 wrote:Does anyone feel that having some forgeworld units (y'vahra, xv-9, Shas, ect.) in your 2k army help out the tau shooting power?

I've been finding that the Ghostkeel, Commanders, and boardsides are getting picked off too quick.

I am currently fielding 2 commanders, 1 ghostkeel and 3 broadsides in my 2k army. Also a unit of 3 crisis suits as well.

I haven't tested them yet, but I guess some of them are really interesting - like the HYMP and HBC Hammerhead variants, XV9s, Y'vhara and Tigersharks. The other stuff... meh.

Vineheart01 wrote:sooo...speaking forgeworld...

How do people view the Ta'unar now? kinda feels like it got hit with the nerfbat hardcore to me.

And is it just me or did they eff up and the Tigershark ISNT a Titanic, yet it has a Macro weapon? (on a flier with minimum move at that...) lol....

You're a bit late to the bus - FW's FAQ already addressed AX-1-0 situation with its guns.

Ta'unar is useful if you have a LOT of drones near it. Without those drones, it'll die pretty fast against any real super-heavy. If I'm not mistaken, a Hierophant Bio-Titan can kill a Ta'unar in one turn (without drornes nearby).

Ta'unar's firepower... eh. A Revenant Titan is much more killy for not even 50-ish points more

New player looking at Tau stuff.

What are the anti-vehicle options? I'm thinking more along the lines of killing T8 like Leman Russ and the like.

Longstrike + Hammerhead seems better than 2x Broadsides. Little more expensive, but doesn't require 5 Markerlights, only 1 really for maximum effectiveness.

There's also the suicide squad stealth suits delivering quad-fusion commanders via homing beacon.

Any other options?

I'm not a fan of the Tidewall Gunrig - I'd rather take a Longstrike for better average damage than gamble on the better potential, but that's just me.

Also full disclosure I haven't read all 44 pages, so if this topic was covered already do let me know.

 Chippen wrote:
New player looking at Tau stuff.

What are the anti-vehicle options? I'm thinking more along the lines of killing T8 like Leman Russ and the like.

Longstrike + Hammerhead seems better than 2x Broadsides. Little more expensive, but doesn't require 5 Markerlights, only 1 really for maximum effectiveness.

There's also the suicide squad stealth suits delivering quad-fusion commanders via homing beacon.

Any other options?

I'm not a fan of the Tidewall Gunrig - I'd rather take a Longstrike for better average damage than gamble on the better potential, but that's just me.

Also full disclosure I haven't read all 44 pages, so if this topic was covered already do let me know.

You are asking a great question, and outside of missing a commander with 4 fusion blasters, pretty much hit all of our "effective" anti armor

Quad Fusion Commander
Longstrike + Hammerheads
HRR Broadside
Gunrig
Y'vahra
Tigershark AX-1-0

for serious anti-tank, these are our best options (hope I didn't forget anything)

 Vector Strike wrote:
Quad Fusion Commander
Longstrike + Hammerheads
HRR Broadside
Gunrig
Y'vahra
Tigershark AX-1-0

for serious anti-tank, these are our best options (hope I didn't forget anything)

The most effective in my experience are the 4 fusion Commanders, and the Y'Vahra. I haven't used the Gunrig, but Broadsides and Hammerheads just don't put out enough hurt to me. Even assuming best case scenarios, it still takes multiple turns to wipe out something like a rhino with a Hammerhead. The 4 fusion Commander puts out enough hurt to kill a good number of tanks in one turn, and the drones can help keep it alive longer than a Hammerhead as well. Just like the last few editions, multiple shots is already going to be better than one with dealing with tanks.

I wouldn't include Broadsides on a list of "best" anything. They're monstrously overcosted right now. Otherwise, those are all viable options for heavy armor control. You could even opt for weight of fire with drones if your target has a 3+.

The Ta'unar has poor (but not atrocious) firepower for the points, especially considering how readily available and cheap its small arms options are. However, being a battlesuit is a downright awesome. Surround your tuna with a drone swarm, and merrily pawn off titan-killing shots as you quickly whittle down your opponent.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I wouldn't include Broadsides on a list of "best" anything. They're monstrously overcosted right now. Otherwise, those are all viable options for heavy armor control. You could even opt for weight of fire with drones if your target has a 3+.

Maybe the HRR/PR version, coupled with some drones, can do a bit of a mess to the enemy lines. I'm yet to try it and doesn't hit the 170p line.
I find it to be expensive on paper. I'll try to test it this week

 Haechi wrote:
Are flamer crisis playable without homing beacon? and if so, how?

They're really not too bad just starting on the table. Since Flamers have no hit roll, they have no penalty for advancing, which gives them a pretty good threat range. And, even if your opponent does shoot at them while they're still out of range, then they're not shooting at your other units, that CAN shoot them right that turn.

 Chippen wrote:
New player looking at Tau stuff.

What are the anti-vehicle options? I'm thinking more along the lines of killing T8 like Leman Russ and the like.

Longstrike + Hammerhead seems better than 2x Broadsides. Little more expensive, but doesn't require 5 Markerlights, only 1 really for maximum effectiveness.

There's also the suicide squad stealth suits delivering quad-fusion commanders via homing beacon.

Any other options?

I'm not a fan of the Tidewall Gunrig - I'd rather take a Longstrike for better average damage than gamble on the better potential, but that's just me.

Also full disclosure I haven't read all 44 pages, so if this topic was covered already do let me know.

With marker support the Gunrig gets better average damage and more potential damage then Longstrike. The gunrig has 2 shots a turn so you expect with better then 50% chance to hit for 1 hit a turn matching Longstrike but potentially 2 hits for double the damage of what longstrike can do in 1 turn all for less points. Personally I prefer a gunrig with 7 pathfinders for the price of Longstrike. Krrotox can also dish out some decent damage. Or 4 small Firewarrior teams with 4 missile pods and pulse range extend drone.

I'm gonna play 2 broadsides with HRR and velocity tracker, with a pocket Ethereal with them. It's 4 fusion shots with 60" range and 3+ reroll 1 against flyers. I think it can work.

Ok so I have been meaning to check in a while ago but the Battle report wasn't done added on a whole new job thing so life is just busy.

Played a 1600 point game and I learned some things.

One is don't charge unless you are trying to lock someone up for a turn. If you do charge throw the 2 drone squad first to eat up the over-watch. (smart).

Kroot are nothing without cover. I had 30 and only 2 survived the bullets.
Additional note, the space marines have a 12 shot gatling gun rhino attachment S6 -1AP. It will become more common place in future game once people catch on.
Extra Extra note: the 30 Kroot, Etherial on drone and his drones point wise will not be spent for 2-5man drone squads a fire-blade, and a transport. (only 7pts more)

I will always run two fusion commanders form here on out. If I had two fusion commanders the Crusader would have been toast on the turn they came in.

Strike teams, though I still love the range of the gun. A space marine in cover is a pain to kill. Yes we would on 3's but they get a 2+save. This brings me to a point that was made elsewhere by others but pathfinders with optional guns are the way to go for me in the future. I say this because they can take a Grav-drone and when the squad is in a deep cover like trees or a crater it is now a -4in to the charge distance for the unit charging. With the additional drones to aid in the cover the Grav-drone it brings the cost up but they are not as chargeable

I know the math hammer people will shun me for this but plasma rifles and a shield generator. I am saying this because of the lack of armor punch our good old S5 guns deal. I did above wounds on space-marines in cover and all of them lived. Math said I should have killed 3-4 of them. Plasma rifles have the bite needed to punch armor without the need for an ATS. The shield generator gives the protection from the plasma rifle shots because the drones will be dead long before those shots get fired.

 Ishotfirst wrote:
ath said I should have killed 3-4 of them. Plasma rifles have the bite needed to punch armor without the need for an ATS. The shield generator gives the protection from the plasma rifle shots because the drones will be dead long before those shots get fired.

Plasma isn't bad against marines, but CIBs, mathematically, will do more (with or without ATS) until you manage to get on half range with plasma. And, well, 18" is safer than 12"

Am considering a crisis team with double fusions and shield each as a distraction fex/ hold it in reserve and react to heavy armour with it. Anyone else tried the load out?

 Ishotfirst wrote:

Additional note, the space marines have a 12 shot gatling gun rhino attachment S6 -1AP. It will become more common place in future game once people catch on.

Strike teams, though I still love the range of the gun. A space marine in cover is a pain to kill. Yes we would on 3's but they get a 2+save. This brings me to a point that was made elsewhere by others but pathfinders with optional guns are the way to go for me in the future. I say this because they can take a grab-drone and when the squad is in a deep cover like trees or a crater it is now a -4in to the charge distance for the unit charging. With the additional drones to aid in the cover the Grav-drone it brings the cost up but they are not as chargeable

No it doesn't
At best Rhino can take RF4 Bolters

Razorback on the other hand is the one with that gun, and Razorback spam is OP as hell! It's a Tournament level Build.

I've been advocating the usage of Pathfinders with Ion Rifles for a while now. Strike Teams are basically useless vs Marines.
2+ Armor vs 4+ Armor is massive!
Edit
4+ Armor 2x your EHP
2+ Armor 6x your EHP

Not to mention the fact that Pathfinders will have d3 shots, wound on 2+, and can shoot at Tanks.