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The forgeworld update in Fires of Cyraxus is likely to have an effect on points of tau units. The main relevant one is whether the Y'Vahra gets a correction - anyone got an idea when this might be released, there was a rumour of end of this month.

Also there was a rumour that coldstar commanders can choose their weapon choices, someone on Reddit pointed out the example given was "4 plasma rifles" which would suggest 4 hard points to use. There was meant to be a limitation as not having access to CIB. But that still leaves fusion blasters open to use - quad fusion coldstars is extraordinarily competitive, would love that, but common sense makes me think it's more likely to be 2 weapons + 2 support systems. Anyone got confirmation on this?

sadhvikv wrote:
The forgeworld update in Fires of Cyraxus is likely to have an effect on points of tau units. The main relevant one is whether the Y'Vahra gets a correction - anyone got an idea when this might be released, there was a rumour of end of this month.

Also there was a rumour that coldstar commanders can choose their weapon choices, someone on Reddit pointed out the example given was "4 plasma rifles" which would suggest 4 hard points to use. There was meant to be a limitation as not having access to CIB. But that still leaves fusion blasters open to use - quad fusion coldstars is extraordinarily competitive, would love that, but common sense makes me think it's more likely to be 2 weapons + 2 support systems. Anyone got confirmation on this?

Some guy over on ATT claimed it to be true. He said his FLG had the book and had a look at it. I think he also confirmed commander limit before GW preview.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
While the damage output of y'varhas is amazing 2 of them plus a commander is half of a normal list. In 3 models. And those models are still very susceptible to lascannons. I don't think skewing a list that hard will be good.

Not to fluff the Y'vahra too hard, but with a 14" Flamer it can simply opt to Nova it's 3++ every turn. Makes lascannons a little less spooky.

Y'vahra Nova only gives a 3++ against melee attacks. There's also no way in hell I'm using the Nova for anything except Nova-profiling the flamer.

I d like to know the point costs and loadouts of the new 4 wounds xv8 commander. If its bf3 3 weapons i think it would be enough to run single xv8 again.
Since CIB are not in the XV8 box, im pretty sure that they will be restrictet to our normal Commanders only.

Y'vahras are perhaps going to end up like the Daemon Primarchs. Big and scary, but useless in highly competitive play due to being focused down so hard, so often. My Chaos list that runs 3 Obliterator squads would gak all over 2 Y'vahras. It already did beat a list with the Bash Bros., and they are somewhat tougher than a Y'vahra.

If you invest in 2 Y'Vahras, you also need a ton of drones to protect them. That's not really an issue, since Gun Drones are still pretty decent at 12 points. My current thought for a list is basically 3 fusion Commanders, 2 Y'Vahras, and FW as necessary to fill detachments, and the rest with a mix of ion Pathfinders and deep striking Gun Drones. That all makes a lot of assumptions aboout rumors being accurate, but it'd make for a pretty strong list if what we've heard is all true.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Y'vahras are perhaps going to end up like the Daemon Primarchs. Big and scary, but useless in highly competitive play due to being focused down so hard, so often. My Chaos list that runs 3 Obliterator squads would gak all over 2 Y'vahras. It already did beat a list with the Bash Bros., and they are somewhat tougher than a Y'vahra.

We can try that out next tournament . Aidan had 2 squads and barely killed half the drones before I had him almost tabled. Turns out 3 damage weapons are really good at killing oblits.

Yvahras without drones are fairly easy to kill. With drones they're untouchable. It's why you take 50 of them. With a double yvahra list you're betting you can kill whatever threatens the yvahras before your drones are dead. With shield drones that's a fairly safe bet even before the range increase.

Great, I can already see how people spamming certain units ruin them for everyone again ^^ Nerfbat is already swinging.

I think it's almost inevitable that the Y'Vahra will get some kind of nerfing. GW doesn't want the best and most obvious auto-include to be a FW model. On the surface I'm OK with that since FW is moderately unattainable for lots of gamers for cost reasons, and the game is already more one of "who's got deep pockets" than I'd really like.

I'm going to proceed with list building and planning on the assumption that I'll be fine if I don't immediately shell out for two or more Y'Vahras.

Question, everyone is peeved that the Crisis Suits didn't get a points decrease. However, now that Drones can DS, those same suits might a lot more durable when they DS since they can be effectively screened. Has anyone got any proto-builds that make good use of DS Drone-Crisis synergy, maybe combined with a cheap CCN Commander? It feels like there's maybe some useful synergy there, but I haven't found it yet.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

Question, everyone is peeved that the Crisis Suits didn't get a points decrease. However, now that Drones can DS, those same suits might a lot more durable when they DS since they can be effectively screened. Has anyone got any proto-builds that make good use of DS Drone-Crisis synergy, maybe combined with a cheap CCN Commander? It feels like there's maybe some useful synergy there, but I haven't found it yet.

Drones taken as part of a unit of Crisis Suits already deep struck with the Crisis team, it is in the tactical drones entry in the Index:

When a unit is set up, any accompanying drones must be placed in unit coherence with it.

Each suit in the unit could take 2 drones, so even a minimum sized unit of Crisis (because of GW removing our options for lone crisis suits) could drop in with 6 drones as a screen.

Yeah, I get that, but there are additional benefits to screening with a separate unit of drones. One, you can get more Saviour Protocol bodies between your suits and his guns (so long as they are w/in 3"), but also you can split that separate unit off to act as a speed bump to delay HtH or to cover other parts of the board. You could do both obviously, but I was thinking more about uses for the separate unit.

Or, the simple act of having the same drones go with one of two different teams as the scenario dictates.

Aeri wrote:
Great, I can already see how people spamming certain units ruin them for everyone again ^^ Nerfbat is already swinging.

TIL taking 2 of something is spamming it. But yeah, my old list had 55 drones and 10 commanders and I don't feel bad about it at all. That list or that current one is the only way I don't get tabled. It's not our fault our index was such gak we had to spam the 3 viable units to even have a chance of placing at tournaments.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Question, everyone is peeved that the Crisis Suits didn't get a points decrease. However, now that Drones can DS, those same suits might a lot more durable when they DS since they can be effectively screened. Has anyone got any proto-builds that make good use of DS Drone-Crisis synergy, maybe combined with a cheap CCN Commander? It feels like there's maybe some useful synergy there, but I haven't found it yet.

I feel like a lot hinges on how shield drones will change. I had thought there was talk of Saviour Protocols getting brought into line with other bodyguard rules, so that it's per wound actually suffered (after saves and damage). They might then lose their 5+++. The idea might be that they're worth 8 points just for bodyguarding compared to 12 for the gun drones. Going to a regular bodyguard rule with no FNP makes shield drones slightly worse at protecting Crisis Suits from bolters -- you can just shoot the shield drones and kill them slightly faster than you can now kill them by shooting the suits -- and a lot worse at protecting them from lascannons, since one hit could kill multiple drones. If they still have the FNP and get the regular bodyguard rule then that's pretty great for beating small arms but still makes them more vulnerable to big guns.

Gun drones would seem to be really bad at protecting suits at 12 points, though. I mean, 12 points for T4 4+ is pretty fragile, and with the normal bodyguard rule you'd be losing a bunch to a lascannon hit. And the gun drones are actually more vulnerable to bolter fire than a cheap Crisis Suit -- a bolter hit expects to kill 3 points of gun drone while putting 0.111 wounds on a suit, so you're only coming out ahead if the suit costs at least 81 points, or if you can position the drones so that they can't be directly shot at and can only bodyguard. Even a tri-plasma suit doesn't cost that much.

There’s no consistency in how bodyguard units work. Some soak individual wounds, like often bodyguards, so they can partially absorb a lascannon hit. Others instead take the hit - but resolve it against them instead of the original target, like deathshroud termies. So you roll to wound against their toughness and saves.

The second model makes more sense to me. It’s way harder to woundva riptide than a drone, so it’s dumb to have drones absorb shots only after they’ve beaten its toughness and 2+ save. But at the same time if the drone gets in the way it should tank the whole hit.

Mandragola wrote:
There’s no consistency in how bodyguard units work. Some soak individual wounds, like often bodyguards, so they can partially absorb a lascannon hit. Others instead take the hit - but resolve it against them instead of the original target, like deathshroud termies. So you roll to wound against their toughness and saves.

The second model makes more sense to me. It’s way harder to woundva riptide than a drone, so it’s dumb to have drones absorb shots only after they’ve beaten its toughness and 2+ save. But at the same time if the drone gets in the way it should tank the whole hit.

I agree the second method makes much more sence, than the almost fnp damage redistribution method.

Well Dal'yth is up. Not much to say although I like the buff to ghostkeels. I was already using them and the buff to both stealth and their ion gun is awesome!

The sept and warlord trait are pretty meh to though. Sticking with bork'an and farsight o far

Yup, I'm definitely gonna grab a ghostkeel now since it's less vulnerable to deepstrike shooting.

I’m not too impressed by the Dalyth stuff to be honest. It seems a particularly poor trait to use with ghostkeels and stealth suits - which want to be moving. I can see a case for it on units you expect to sit back and shoot, like broadsides and maybe stormsurges. In fact it’s probably at its best for big stuff like that, which would otherwise struggle to get cover saves. Fire warrior gunlines would certainly benefit, too.

So not useless, but nothing at all to do with the fluff.

The stratagem for stealth suits on the other hand seems extremely weak - at least as GW are describing it. Stealths can already fall back and shoot, so all this does is let them move further, when doing so.

If there is a good use for this strat then it’s probably in having the ghostkeel “throw” the stealths around the battlefield. Movement is a big deal and it’ll help to be able to rapidly reposition stealths. It might actually be a way to get farsight stealths up close to benefit from their reroll to wound. It definitely doesn’t combo with a sept trait that’s all about standing still!

So far, this is the least interesting update, I think. We already knew the trait was unspectacular and we haven’t seen a lot else. I don’t think we knew about auxiliaries coming down in points a bit, and I suppose that means the list of points changes we’ve seen so far might not be complete. Or maybe I just missed it.

If and I doubt they have changed egg men aswell that would really put the hurt on plasma deepstrike spamming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
I’m not too impressed by the Dalyth stuff to be honest. It seems a particularly poor trait to use with ghostkeels and stealth suits - which want to be moving. I can see a case for it on units you expect to sit back and shoot, like broadsides and maybe stormsurges. In fact it’s probably at its best for big stuff like that, which would otherwise struggle to get cover saves. Fire warrior gunlines would certainly benefit, too.

So not useless, but nothing at all to do with the fluff.

The stratagem for stealth suits on the other hand seems extremely weak - at least as GW are describing it. Stealths can already fall back and shoot, so all this does is let them move further, when doing so.

If there is a good use for this strat then it’s probably in having the ghostkeel “throw” the stealths around the battlefield. Movement is a big deal and it’ll help to be able to rapidly reposition stealths. It might actually be a way to get farsight stealths up close to benefit from their reroll to wound. It definitely doesn’t combo with a sept trait that’s all about standing still!

So far, this is the least interesting update, I think. We already knew the trait was unspectacular and we haven’t seen a lot else. I don’t think we knew about auxiliaries coming down in points a bit, and I suppose that means the list of points changes we’ve seen so far might not be complete. Or maybe I just missed it.

I think Dalyth probably started as a -1 to hit trait faction and they changed it up after seeing how broken it is army wide, the problem being cover for not moving goes against everything but pathfinders probably already hidden in cover and big suits who even then will probably benifit more from borkan to give them a larger threat radius

Mandragola wrote:I’m not too impressed by the Dalyth stuff to be honest. It seems a particularly poor trait to use with ghostkeels and stealth suits - which want to be moving. I can see a case for it on units you expect to sit back and shoot, like broadsides and maybe stormsurges. In fact it’s probably at its best for big stuff like that, which would otherwise struggle to get cover saves. Fire warrior gunlines would certainly benefit, too.

So not useless, but nothing at all to do with the fluff.

The stratagem for stealth suits on the other hand seems extremely weak - at least as GW are describing it. Stealths can already fall back and shoot, so all this does is let them move further, when doing so.

If there is a good use for this strat then it’s probably in having the ghostkeel “throw” the stealths around the battlefield. Movement is a big deal and it’ll help to be able to rapidly reposition stealths. It might actually be a way to get farsight stealths up close to benefit from their reroll to wound. It definitely doesn’t combo with a sept trait that’s all about standing still!

So far, this is the least interesting update, I think. We already knew the trait was unspectacular and we haven’t seen a lot else. I don’t think we knew about auxiliaries coming down in points a bit, and I suppose that means the list of points changes we’ve seen so far might not be complete. Or maybe I just missed it.

I agree with all of this, but I'm curious who runs a Fire Warrior gunline as a static entity. In my estimation, they are (and always have been) at their best when they're taking advantage of their extended double-tap range, which means moving them towards their targets for a massive 3 shots apiece. No standing around in this guy's army! Also, here's hoping the non-Tau got cheaper across the board. That'd be a nice surprise.

By the way, I'm really amused by the possibility of a Da'lyth Stormsurge superheavy detachment.

Yeah that could be right. Nids get the same, though their version does work when moving. I wonder if the people who currently get -1 to hit all the time will be retconned to be in cover. My Crimson Fists certainly hope so!

I can’t say I like the mechanic. It would be better if it stacked with actual cover. As it is, it’s probably a downside for this sept if there’s Terrain around, because the baddies will hide behind it.

And yeah, Stormsurges can be from whatever sept you want - though if they are, they won’t benefit from other septs’ buffs. That’s probably a deal-breaker I think, as they really want markerlight support, Kauyon etc.

I take one other thing from these updates. In the Tau script, there are no apostrophes randomly scattered in their words. I’m therefore boycotting the arbitrary addition of apostrophes to all the Tau words by humans. It’s silly.

Ice_can wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 meleti wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Marking this down now:

All super competitive Tau lists will eventually gravitate towards have 2x Borkan Y'VHara in their lists. 14" 3 damage flamers solve all tau problems. And for 1CP you can give 1 of the Y'Vharas reroll wounds from a buffmander. Everything else in the codex will do less damage.

This is why the Y'vahra is going to get the nerfhammer sooner or later, lol.

I'd rather have the Bor'kan tenet nerfed or removed for flamers than that the Y'Vahra gets balanced around having 14" flamers with a specific sept tenet but is useless in every other circumstance.

They haven't even released the codex and your already calling for nerfs
Just so y'vhara's a non codex entry aren't what? points hicked in December.

I'm not asking for nerfs, I'm saying that IF the Y'vahra is to be nerfed they should nerf what's causing problems, which is it's 14" flamer when using the Bork'an tenet. A 6" range increase on an 8" weapon is MASSIVE and most likely so impactful that the Y'vahra cannot be properly balanced for both Bork'an and other septs at the same time while this rule exists. It'll probably either be OP for Bork'an and balanced for other septs or balanced for Bork'an but useless for other septs. If the Y'vahra always has an 8" flamer (or something like 9 or 10" for Bork'an) it's much easier to make it usable for everyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
I’m not too impressed by the Dalyth stuff to be honest. It seems a particularly poor trait to use with ghostkeels and stealth suits - which want to be moving. I can see a case for it on units you expect to sit back and shoot, like broadsides and maybe stormsurges. In fact it’s probably at its best for big stuff like that, which would otherwise struggle to get cover saves. Fire warrior gunlines would certainly benefit, too.

So not useless, but nothing at all to do with the fluff.

The stratagem for stealth suits on the other hand seems extremely weak - at least as GW are describing it. Stealths can already fall back and shoot, so all this does is let them move further, when doing so.

If there is a good use for this strat then it’s probably in having the ghostkeel “throw” the stealths around the battlefield. Movement is a big deal and it’ll help to be able to rapidly reposition stealths. It might actually be a way to get farsight stealths up close to benefit from their reroll to wound. It definitely doesn’t combo with a sept trait that’s all about standing still!

So far, this is the least interesting update, I think. We already knew the trait was unspectacular and we haven’t seen a lot else. I don’t think we knew about auxiliaries coming down in points a bit, and I suppose that means the list of points changes we’ve seen so far might not be complete. Or maybe I just missed it.

I think it would have been better if Dal'yth units benefitted from cover if they moved a certain distance (to prevent "I moved my Fire Warrior gunline 0.01"! They have cover now!" shenanigans).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:


I take one other thing from these updates. In the Tau script, there are no apostrophes randomly scattered in their words. I’m therefore boycotting the arbitrary addition of apostrophes to all the Tau words by humans. It’s silly.

And horrible to type because if I use ' before a vowel it'll automatically put an accent on my next letter unless I press space first

Actually the ghost keel stratagem works really well with Dal'yth. It's the only way to move your suits closer AND keeping your cover bonus.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah that could be right. Nids get the same, though their version does work when moving. I wonder if the people who currently get -1 to hit all the time will be retconned to be in cover. My Crimson Fists certainly hope so!

The nid version doesn't work on anything that has "Fly".


I'm thinking that is why the Tau one requires you to be stationary during your turn while the Nid one doesn't. Nids don't get Gargoyles or Flyrants running up and down the field with +1 to their armor save while Tau can have basically all of their stuff with "Fly"(barring the actual Flyers) stay still during their turn and get +1 to their save.

I can’t say I like the mechanic. It would be better if it stacked with actual cover. As it is, it’s probably a downside for this sept if there’s Terrain around, because the baddies will hide behind it.

And yeah, Stormsurges can be from whatever sept you want - though if they are, they won’t benefit from other septs’ buffs. That’s probably a deal-breaker I think, as they really want markerlight support, Kauyon etc.

Markerlights, right now, don't require you to have the same <Sept>. They just apply to Tau Empire stuff.

Ok that’s cool. Maybe I will go for some dalyth stormsuges then. I’ve got one, partially built.

Mainly I’ll be waiting to see the whole book, plus the March FAQ updates, before committing to anything major.

Wall of Mirrors, as written, provides fairly high levels of mobility (albeit with some serious limitations) for a single stealth squad. It'll be situational, but if you load up a full Stealth squad with a few fusion, you could move roughly 20" (6" from riptide + 12" away from riptide +~2" for the base) at the beginning of the movement phase, move 8" (because it isn't restricted - it was just a mirage!), assault move +1d6", and still hit on 3's rerolling 1s with 2 fusions if you have enough markerlight support on the target.

Edit: the extra movement and assault move may not work, given the FAQ entry about removal and setup. Still, decent mobility and no penalties to shooting. *shrug*

If they're of the Dalyth Sept, they also have the added benefit of being able to have some of that mobility (~20") and retain their Sept trait benefit, since they don't meet any of the limiting factors thereof. Mobile terminators that impose -1 to hit, with semi-decent firepower (with ATS). Not bad.

So, uh, the rest of the stratagems, all the signature systems, and all of the point costs and weapon profiles/support system rules are up.

Lots to digest.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2018/03/tau-leak-stratagems-warlord-traits-signature-systems-point-values/

Commander with 3x CIB+ATS is 21.3 points per damage vs T7/3+, an AMAZING damage output. Actually one of the highest in the game for dedicated AT. T'au sept with the 6" JSJ relic, and the 18" gun is actually totally legit. Kills 4 reapers on average, even without overcharging, as well.

4x CIB is 22.2 for T7/3+, but is more flexible and more volume, so higher potential damage output. 4x CIB averages the same damage as 3xCIB+ATS vs 3+ save, and is better vs anything 4+ save (Including invuln). Thought it is 6 points more expensive.

Got our new commander loadout, boys.

Fusion still better for T7+ 3+ or 2+ with no invuln. Though it is marginal at T7/8 3+, and still within 10 ppd at T7/8 2+.

That's not our new loadout, that was the loadout the moment the index dropped.

CiB was the best, without question-and gotten better.

Meanwhile plasma is still dumb as hell and weaker than imperial for no reason (it was weaker because it was set to safe! now imperial is both safe and stronger?)
Not to mention the rail line weapons, supposdly iconic tau, are still utterly useless.

Hail our new ion overlords.