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Seems I'm alone in thinking plasma is a better choice for the broadsides. So I will stop suggesting it as a better idea. Still yet to play my first game with the codex - I could be totally off on it.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
buddha wrote: In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
Take a look at this list - 1 Surge is too easy to kill IMO - must bring 3.
Interestingly I think both of these units do best in Bork'an. The range really helps both units shine.
I'm pretty sure the surge can take 3 support systems and ewo is good choice I think.
I think both y'varha and surge are very list dependent. And need support to work best. If taking drones y'varhas do better without drones a surge is probably better.
On another note I've been considering ewo on bork'an y'varhas for a 24" bubble of anti deepstrike with the flamer. Ignores the -1 and can kill 3-5 marines or genestealers when the drop in close. It's not much but combine with overwatch and it might prevent a charge from succeeding.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
The idea is to deploy the gun drones and commanders into reserve first, then start building a castle using the broadsides, with riptides on flank, marker drones around them to abblate wounds too later on, and then infiltrate the stealth and ghost to either deny drops or counter a juicy target.
Kinda low on CP, but I didn't wanna put troops in there if I could avoid it and break all suit style.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/23 14:46:20
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
buddha wrote: In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
I've mentioned the Borkan Y'Vahras with EWO a couple times, and nobody seemed as interested in that concept as I am. Glad someone else is on the bandwagon. Assuming it's not the top of turn 1, you're probably killing more like 7 things (3d6*2/3 chance to wound) that drop in. Remember that Nova charge lasts until your next turn! Having a flame weapon with >9" range is also a stellar defensive option for whatever survives the drop and wants to charge, as if charging Y'Vahras wasn't already dicey enough. Maybe I'm overstating things a little, given how little time we've had since the codex dropped, but I see Y'Vahra-based board control as a potential cornerstone for competitive Tau lists. I'm contemplating a list based around a Borkan outrider detachment and 2 Tau Battalions. More on that later when I don't have to type it into my phone.
Regarding the suit army, I think you're setting yourself up pretty well thematically. That said, in terms of optimization, there are some holes.
Even with the prodigious discount Broadsides got, they're still just not all that great. Compare them with Hammerheads which have similar firepower but are more than twice as durable for like 30 more points. I mean, if you're set on suits, they aren't awful options, but they certainly are not amazing. HRR and SMS would probably be my load out of choice.
There's not much reason to take anything other than fusions or CIBs on commanders. Anything else just decreases your opponent's body count.
Riptides I like, but you might consider velocity trackers on them. There's a ton of stuff around with FLY, so that could be a more useful hit modification option. Just a thought.
Tactically, you're going to have to use your stealth suits to screen out drops since you have such a low model count. As mentioned, Broadsides are paper thin, so getting them T1 charged is going to ruin your day. Chump the charge with your cheap guys, fly away, and open fire!
MilkmanAl wrote: I've mentioned the Borkan Y'Vahras with EWO a couple times, and nobody seemed as interested in that concept as I am. Glad someone else is on the bandwagon. Assuming it's not the top of turn 1, you're probably killing more like 7 things (3d6*2/3 chance to wound) that drop in. Remember that Nova charge lasts until your next turn! Having a flame weapon with >9" range is also a stellar defensive option for whatever survives the drop and wants to charge, as if charging Y'Vahras wasn't already dicey enough. Maybe I'm overstating things a little, given how little time we've had since the codex dropped, but I see Y'Vahra-based board control as a potential cornerstone for competitive Tau lists. I'm contemplating a list based around a Borkan outrider detachment and 2 Tau Battalions. More on that later when I don't have to type it into my phone.
I'd be interested in seeing that list. I keep playing with a double y'varha list but it seems once I get them + commanders + screen and drones there is no room for other things. I've gotten 2 games in and double battalion plus vanguard has worked really well for me. I'm sure having the outrider would work just as well.
I think between stealthsuits ghostkeels and cheap fire warriors we have great potential to control the board.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
davou wrote: I seem to have gotten burried a few pages back; Here's my crack at an all suits list (with drones for abblation and ML). I'd love some feedback
Spoiler:
All suits (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [100 PL, 1982pts]
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire)
HQ
Commander in XV85 Crisis battlesuit
Selections: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Shield generator, Advanced targeting system
Categories: Faction: <Sept>, Battlesuit, Character, Fly, Jet Pack, HQ, Faction: T'au Empire, Commander, Legendary Unit
Fast Attack
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV1 Gun Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
The idea is to deploy the gun drones and commanders into reserve first, then start building a castle using the broadsides, with riptides on flank, marker drones around them to abblate wounds too later on, and then infiltrate the stealth and ghost to either deny drops or counter a juicy target.
Kinda low on CP, but I didn't wanna put troops in there if I could avoid it and break all suit style.
To be honest, I find that army list layout so bafflingly hard to read, I skipped over it last time. Sorry! I’m still genuinely unsure what’s in the list, though I think I’ve managed to find most of the units now. Basically you’ve got a spearhead of 3 broadsides with a CIB commander, and a vanguard of
It looks broadly fine though I think. The main area I’d question is the commanders – who I’d give more guns instead of the other junk they are carrying. Like just an XV85 with quad CIB and a coldstar with quad fusion. Burst cannon and missile pod is just a waste of BS2+ now, I think.
Going all-suits leaves you very low on CPs of course – but you know that. It’s hard to argue that going all-suits is a good idea when you can so easily get battalions now.
I’m curious to see no actual crisis suits – particularly when you’ve got at least one homing beacon in there. What is going to use the beacon? You could have a set with flamers, and one of them might have a DC to help your drones. Or you could use CIB suits, for the ridiculous firepower they can drop. They could even deep strike in with some marker drones, which would be handy because they’d still be alive – I’d make a determined effort to kill off drones if playing against Tau.
davou wrote: I seem to have gotten burried a few pages back; Here's my crack at an all suits list (with drones for abblation and ML). I'd love some feedback
Spoiler:
All suits (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [100 PL, 1982pts]
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire)
HQ
Commander in XV85 Crisis battlesuit
Selections: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster, 2x MV1 Gun Drone, Shield generator, Advanced targeting system
Categories: Faction: <Sept>, Battlesuit, Character, Fly, Jet Pack, HQ, Faction: T'au Empire, Commander, Legendary Unit
Fast Attack
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV7 Marker Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
Tactical Drones
Selections: 4x MV1 Gun Drone
Categories: Fast Attack, Fly, Faction: <Sept>, Drone, Tactical Drones
The idea is to deploy the gun drones and commanders into reserve first, then start building a castle using the broadsides, with riptides on flank, marker drones around them to abblate wounds too later on, and then infiltrate the stealth and ghost to either deny drops or counter a juicy target.
Kinda low on CP, but I didn't wanna put troops in there if I could avoid it and break all suit style.
Oof, please clear up that wall of text a bit, it's unreadable like this. No need to list every single tag of every unit and fully spell out all weapon and gear selections.
Troops Strike Team: 5x Fire Warrior
Strike Team: 5x Fire Warrior
Breacher Team: 7x Fire Warrior
Elite XV104 Riptide Battlesuit (HBC, ATS, TL)
Warlord Traits and Relics can be listed in parentheses with their model. Also, use abbreviations for wargear and weapons if you know them, people who read and comment on these kind of tactica threads will know their meaning.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/22 20:22:21
I really hope PEN (Puretide Engram Neurochip) and TUD (Through Unity, Devastation) catch on as acronyms so I can stop writing those out when I'm talking about them.
So after two games with double Riptide I'm really liking it. They are just so mobile and have great synergy with everything around them in the form of FTGG threat they offer. Buffed with stratagems they can keep on fighting the whole game and aren't even afraid of melee. One took two rounds of beating from Daemon Prince today and didn't even suffer a scratch. 3++ T7 is solid. Haven't tested Ion accelerator yet.
However I feel I don't have enough midfield units to hide my Commanders behind I'm going to revert to only using one. Midfield will have two Ghostkeels to sate my need for big anime mecha suits. They should offer a nice and comfy hiding place for Commanders and pack some punch themselves. I'm probably going to also try to have more Stealth suits to act as skirmishing units. Usually I run at least two units of 3, now I'm thinking adding a unit of 6 too. This should further improve my standing on the midfield and act as support for Commanders doing the heavy lifting.
John Prins wrote: Has it been mentioned yet that Strike and Breacher Teams can now take Pulse Pistols (every model)?
Probably not worth the points cost (1pt), but for very aggressive Tau armies it might make a nice CC surprise.
They can't be used in CC, only in the shooting phase with models within 1", so I don't think they make any difference. It takes a miracle for one of my Strike Teams to survive a round of melee with anything more fearsome than a smurf Scout with a boltgun.
Yeah I saw the same, but eh, if they are stuck in combat something has gone wrong that they are locked and not able to retreat in your turn so you can light them up with your army.
Played my first game with the new codex vs multiple flying hive tyrants, swarm-lord and assorted other units (biovores, Ravagers, Mawloc, bodyguard, rippers, lictor etc). I think it was his somewhat toned down tourney list (don't think he usually takes the swarmlord). The new dex really helped in terms of the Tau tenant for over-watch and the focused fire stratagem for ensuring something big dies.
Like the index, one of the all star units for me continues to be stealth suits. They pretty much won the game as it was the relic mission. Picked it up, got back to my lines and nearly everything circled the wagons. In general they screen, go for objectives and are real annoying to kill.
I also like the Devilfish as a later game screen. Nothing new, just the massive hull helps and you can ram it into units to tie things down.
One trick my opponent was assaulting out of buildings so I could not over-watch. Something to be aware of!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/22 21:17:13
Trying to decide between between 2 3-man stealth teams with a fusion or a ghostkheel with CIR and fusions. Don't have the points for both but both are around the same price.
buddha wrote: Trying to decide between between 2 3-man stealth teams with a fusion or a ghostkheel with CIR and fusions. Don't have the points for both but both are around the same price.
They synergize well together, so my question is - do you have any stealth suits at all?
buddha wrote: In a vacuum which would you take between a Y'vahra and a stormsurge? Both are within a few pints of each other and I'm oddly feeling like the Y'vahra might be stronger though the SS brings mortal wound potential. Thoughts?
Take a look at this list - 1 Surge is too easy to kill IMO - must bring 3.
Interestingly I think both of these units do best in Bork'an. The range really helps both units shine.
Entry says you can have three support systems.
True - looking at codex now. Don't have that with me at work. Battle-scribe is wrong on that guys - just a headsup.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bryan01 wrote: Yeah I saw the same, but eh, if they are stuck in combat something has gone wrong that they are locked and not able to retreat in your turn so you can light them up with your army.
Played my first game with the new codex vs multiple flying hive tyrants, swarm-lord and assorted other units (biovores, Ravagers, Mawloc, bodyguard, rippers, lictor etc). I think it was his somewhat toned down tourney list (don't think he usually takes the swarmlord). The new dex really helped in terms of the Tau tenant for over-watch and the focused fire stratagem for ensuring something big dies.
Like the index, one of the all star units for me continues to be stealth suits. They pretty much won the game as it was the relic mission. Picked it up, got back to my lines and nearly everything circled the wagons. In general they screen, go for objectives and are real annoying to kill.
I also like the Devilfish as a later game screen. Nothing new, just the massive hull helps and you can ram it into units to tie things down.
One trick my opponent was assaulting out of buildings so I could not over-watch. Something to be aware of!
I've already experienced with for myself with shining spears and autarchs on bikes in the index- deliberately charging from out of line of site. It made me want to quit the game. I really hope they fix this busted rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/22 23:00:14
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a list drawn up with battlescribe that was actually legal. I guess it must happen sometimes. I’ve never understood the appeal of a program that will generate a subtly wrong army list for you, when you could just use a spreadsheet.
Anyway back to tactics, the question I keep running up against is between broadsides and ionheads. I happen to have three of each (or at least I’ve still got the bits for ion cannons to go on my railheads).
Which should I go for - or is there even a chance it would make sense to get both? That would take up a very significant part of a 2k list.
On the face of it the ionheads seems better. Ion cannons are awesome and it’s got twice as many wounds. Longstrike can buff them even further. Their much better BS makes them less vulnerable to penalties to hit, and they fly.
But the broadside has a better save, can take an invulnerable and can be buffed a hell of a lot by stratagems. I could see myself parking shadowsun with a squad of 3 and using kauyon twice, along with cnc node. That would hurt. It would also be very expensive and potentially easy to shut down - at least for anyone who could make it through the overwatch.
So far everyone seems to be talking about broadsides, rather than ionheads. I guess that’s fairly conclusive, but I’m not totally sure myself. I guess the obvious thing would be to test them.
The idea I have in mind is that the Coldstars and Gun Drone units start in reserve and drop in wherever you need them. Ideally, you'd use the Borkan Coldstar and drones all together to take a huge chunk out of a flank, but if you have multiple holes that need plugging, that's obviously an option, too. The rest of the units deploy with the Y'Vahras towards the front of your DZ creating overlapping exclusion zones (i.e. less than 24" away from each other - probably more like 18"). Shield drones need to be tight to the Y'Vahras to prevent them from getting charged directly and also obviously be in Saviour Protocols range.
Split the FW and Fireblades to go with the Y'Vahras for some brutal overwatch, should something survive the drop. Not a whole lot is going to want to take 2 Y'Vahra flamers plus 45 S5 overwatch shots that hit on 5s to the face before it even gets to do anything in combat. You won't have any screening units, but with that amount of firepower, you can afford to dare combat units to drop on you. Alternatively, you could break off a unit of FW to take up space further out.
10 Pathfinders should be enough to light up a target for some Focus Fire action, should you choose to use it on something. Speaking of which, you don't really have all that many Tau Sept units, but if something big and bad gets into your backfield, +1 to wound with a bunch of pulse rifles is never bad.
I'm considering switching up the balance of shield and gun drones and moving the gun drones off the Tau Commanders and into the Borkan detachment for more Y'Vahra protection and firepower courtesy of the DC.
So here's what I'd been using to think about Hammerheads vs Broadsides. I'm allergic to math (and quite new to mathhammer) which is to blame for all errors. And I did have an error in my sheet earlier that had me slightly overvaluing the SMS (I accidentally had it at -1 AP base), so I will say that rapid firing plasma is definitely better than SMS against tanks. Not that I think rapid firing should ever happen with a Broadside.
Oh, and this is what they look like with reroll 1s (from 1 ML) and +1 to hit (from Longstrike or 5 ML)
Ionheads are quite competitive with Broadsides. They're just 25 points more a model, which is quite noticeable in something like a Brigade detachment, so my interest is more in that HRR/SMS Broadside. They're also arguably easier to give +1 to hit to, since you can run Longstrike and he might even survive your opponent's first turn.
Seeker Missiles are quite overvalued here because they can only fire once.
Seeker missles on a hammerhead longstike and friends allows a nastt ability to really amp up your early game damage to blunt your opponents return volly, the issue is you have to survive your opppnents turn as few tau lists will be getting the +1 for turn 1 roll.
Can someone double check something for me please?
There is a guy at Adepticon is 42nd currently, but, he seems to be running 11 Commanders still… Is Adepticon not using the new T’au codex?
There is also a guy in 21st running 3 Y’tides in a T’au sept army, so I can only presume that one of them is incorrect?
Regarding ion heads vs broadsides one thing to account for on both sides is that the ion head has the mobility and fly rule which I find very desirable. On the other hand broadsides benefit from drones and other buffs.
I prefer the fly rule over increased defence of broadsides.
Kdash wrote: Can someone double check something for me please?
There is a guy at Adepticon is 42nd currently, but, he seems to be running 11 Commanders still… Is Adepticon not using the new T’au codex?
There is also a guy in 21st running 3 Y’tides in a T’au sept army, so I can only presume that one of them is incorrect?
Mandragola wrote: I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a list drawn up with battlescribe that was actually legal. I guess it must happen sometimes. I’ve never understood the appeal of a program that will generate a subtly wrong army list for you, when you could just use a spreadsheet.
Anyway back to tactics, the question I keep running up against is between broadsides and ionheads. I happen to have three of each (or at least I’ve still got the bits for ion cannons to go on my railheads).
Which should I go for - or is there even a chance it would make sense to get both? That would take up a very significant part of a 2k list.
On the face of it the ionheads seems better. Ion cannons are awesome and it’s got twice as many wounds. Longstrike can buff them even further. Their much better BS makes them less vulnerable to penalties to hit, and they fly.
But the broadside has a better save, can take an invulnerable and can be buffed a hell of a lot by stratagems. I could see myself parking shadowsun with a squad of 3 and using kauyon twice, along with cnc node. That would hurt. It would also be very expensive and potentially easy to shut down - at least for anyone who could make it through the overwatch.
So far everyone seems to be talking about broadsides, rather than ionheads. I guess that’s fairly conclusive, but I’m not totally sure myself. I guess the obvious thing would be to test them.
Seems like it would fit best into a brigade.
Long strike and 2 ion heads plus a 3 man broadside. It's basically all your heavy hitting units at once but it's doable in a brigade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/23 14:25:29
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Oof, please clear up that wall of text a bit, it's unreadable like this. No need to list every single tag of every unit and fully spell out all weapon and gear selections.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
Straight comparisons of Broads and Hammers will always be off. You really have to divide the points between AT weapons and AP, since the secondaries are pretty much all designed to be fired at different targets.
Then there is survivability, which varies depending on the army comp.
I'm going to just play both. Longstrike + 1 more ionhead with seeker missiles, 3 railsides with SMS and protection drones. Sure they could cost a lot but I can compensate greatly by utilizing my 35 pt troop choices.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
15000
4000