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liverscrew wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra

Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?

It couldn’t deep strike turn 1 anyway? Oops! Will change that bit.

Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.

Page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ doc. Last entry on the page. The Tidewall is classed as a “fortification” but it is also open topped, and has the transport keyword, so I’d safely believe the intention is the same.

Except the datasheet for tidewall has a specific rule saying aura's which affect the tidewall effect embarked units.
So I'd disagree, but I can see your point. I would say specific rules overrides generic FAQ.

Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.

The tidewall thing though is wonky, because orks have a similar thing on their unit and they got:

Q: The Ork Battlewagon’s Mobile Fortress ability says the Battlewagon ‘ignores the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons’. Its Open-topped ability says that ‘restrictions and modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers’. Does that mean that a unit embarked also ignores the penalty for firing Heavy weapons if the Battlewagon has moved?
A: No.

Which would suggest the fact that you get the restrictions and modifiers received from moving/core rules, but not from abilities.

Yeah though thats an ability not a restriction ot modifier, but yeah GW are doing a great job of greating a lot of edge cases that need to be clarified.

I believe its ment to mean if the battlewagon is in combat or has been hit with a weapon that causes -1 to hit to the battlewagon the orks onboard suffer the pistola only or -1 to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 _Ness wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.

sry, i was talking about R'Varna https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-SE/Tau-XV107-R-Varna-Battlesuit

Yeah it needa a fix to make it playable, it probably needs a points drop as does the Y'varha aswell, but it's in a better place than the R'vana right now.

liverscrew wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra

Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?

It couldn’t deep strike turn 1 anyway? Oops! Will change that bit.

Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.

Page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ doc. Last entry on the page. The Tidewall is classed as a “fortification” but it is also open topped, and has the transport keyword, so I’d safely believe the intention is the same.

Except the datasheet for tidewall has a specific rule saying aura's which affect the tidewall effect embarked units.
So I'd disagree, but I can see your point. I would say specific rules overrides generic FAQ.

Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.

The tidewall thing though is wonky, because orks have a similar thing on their unit and they got:

Q: The Ork Battlewagon’s Mobile Fortress ability says the Battlewagon ‘ignores the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons’. Its Open-topped ability says that ‘restrictions and modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers’. Does that mean that a unit embarked also ignores the penalty for firing Heavy weapons if the Battlewagon has moved?
A: No.

Which would suggest the fact that you get the restrictions and modifiers received from moving/core rules, but not from abilities.

It looks like every “open topped” rule description has the same wording regarding modifiers and penalties, however, this FAQ seems to go against that rule.

Going off battlescribe right now, so they might have just copied and pasted the same wording over and over, but, I think this FAQ is meant to clarify that auras are different to penalties/modifers such as moving and shooting heavy weapons or shooting at a -1 to hit unit etc.

Needs re-clarifying though, but, I think until then, people would more than likely side with the previous stance of “newer rule/clarification” over older/previous rule.

Kdash wrote:

- T’au are one of the few armies with units able to take table control during deployment. (Scouts, Stealth units, Nurglings)

Not sure I follow. Nurglings are a daemon datasheet unit not a Tau Datasheet?

 wyomingfox wrote:

Kdash wrote:

- T’au are one of the few armies with units able to take table control during deployment. (Scouts, Stealth units, Nurglings)

Not sure I follow. Nurglings are a daemon datasheet unit not a Tau Datasheet?

That's because you're not using the farsight expansion.

 wyomingfox wrote:

Kdash wrote:

- T’au are one of the few armies with units able to take table control during deployment. (Scouts, Stealth units, Nurglings)

Not sure I follow. Nurglings are a daemon datasheet unit not a Tau Datasheet?

I think he's obviously saying that T'au are one of a few armies that have units that can deploy outside the deployment zone. Marines have Scouts, Daemons have Nurglings, T'au have Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels, Eldar have Rangers, and I'm not sure there are any more like that.

Guard have Scout Sents and Scout Tanks. Alpha Legion lets you deploy right in front of the enemy.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Guard have Scout Sents and Scout Tanks. Alpha Legion lets you deploy right in front of the enemy.

Scout moves happen after deployment and you can't scout to within 9 inches so good luck scouting your sentinals past a line of stealth suits
Also Alpha legion again can't be set up within 9 inchs so you need a space to strategum deploy into.

Scouts, Stealth Suits and Nurglings deploy DURING deployment, but outside of your deployment zone. Most things (Like rangers) appear AFTER deployment but BEFORE the first turn. Or, like Kroot and Sentinels, they make a move AFTER deployment, but BEFORE the first turn.

This is why scouts, stealth suits and nurglings are so, so, so good.

Stealth suits are also pretty solid units all around. I had been envisioning running a T'au list built around 20-30 of them, but that dream is now dead.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Scouts, Stealth Suits and Nurglings deploy DURING deployment, but outside of your deployment zone. Most things (Like rangers) appear AFTER deployment but BEFORE the first turn. Or, like Kroot and Sentinels, they make a move AFTER deployment, but BEFORE the first turn.

This is why scouts, stealth suits and nurglings are so, so, so good.

Stealth suits are also pretty solid units all around. I had been envisioning running a T'au list built around 20-30 of them, but that dream is now dead.

Not quite dead - can still get 18 of those suckers out there. Deployment also applies to the accompanying drones, which is kind of interesting, though probably not worth using.

18 Stealth Suits plus 3 Ghostkeels would make for a massive amount of board control. Throw a Borkan Y'Vahra with EWO in there for good measure, and you've got a huge no-drop zone. I'm not sure that's a great way to build an army, but it could be amusing!

Yeah, was referring to the Stealth Suits ability to deploy anywhere in “no man’s land” as long as it’s more than 12” away from an enemy unit. I’ve personally been looking at 2 Ghostkeels and 2 unit of 3 Stealth Suits. I’d like another unit of Stealths, but, I don’t really think it is needed and couldn’t squeeze out the points to make it worthwhile. It does leave some gaps in a Dawn of War deployment type, but, you can control where these are.

I'm trying to figure out if forward presence is better or worse now with delayed drops. I'm thinking better. If you can immediately push forward with half your army, that could be extremely helpful.

One thing I hadn't previously considered is running Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels together in a blob to close down a flank. I've previously thought of them as area denial units rather than flank anchors, but I think they might be able to fulfill that latter role pretty well. Make them Tau Sept to help prevent nasty charges, and you have a pretty durable force.

You still need screens against units that can charge T1 without deepstrike and against things like Raven Guard and Chaos who can still infiltrate pre-game.

Units like Stealth Suits will still be very valuable. Just a little less mandatory.

 Ordana wrote:
You still need screens against units that can charge T1 without deepstrike and against things like Raven Guard and Chaos who can still infiltrate pre-game.

Units like Stealth Suits will still be very valuable. Just a little less mandatory.

I agree. Stealth Suits help when against a small select factions, what will be more important now, is your positioning at the end of your turn 1.

They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.

So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.

So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.

You wouldn't lose your shooting phase. Stealth suits can fly.

Well, if they want to send in a unit of Genestealers against a blob of stealth units, I wish them good luck. From 9 Stealth Suits and 3 dakka Ghostkeels, I count about 12 dead Stealers just from Overwatch. I don't see that as an efficient use of that unit, given that whatever is left will just fly away and spray firepower elsewhere.

It could be fun to equip those keels with counterfire too, as 5+ rerollable is better than flat 4+ if I recall right. They're going to be targeted anyhow, by shooting or charging.

Lemondish wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.

So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.

You wouldn't lose your shooting phase. Stealth suits can fly.

You've missed the point.

Genestealers move up around the stealth suits, charge them, wipe them out.

They pop overrun, which lets them move again. They move their modified distance (So likely 18-20" after they used kraken strat earlier in the turn) up to 1.1" from most of your army. They then pop adrenaline surge which lets them fight again. They pile in to a bunch of your units. They cannot swing because they did not declare charges against these targets. They then consolidate, likely surrounding at least 1 model so it cannot fall back (Fire warriors, broadsides, kroot, marksmen, fireblades, etc.).

You now cannot shoot, and if they did surround a non-fly unit, you cannot fall back and then shoot them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Well, if they want to send in a unit of Genestealers against a blob of stealth units, I wish them good luck. From 9 Stealth Suits and 3 dakka Ghostkeels, I count about 12 dead Stealers just from Overwatch. I don't see that as an efficient use of that unit, given that whatever is left will just fly away and spray firepower elsewhere.

That's assuming they don't eat overwatch with other units first? Tyranids are more than capable of assaulting infiltrators with more than one unit of genestealers.

Onslaught on a unit of hormagaunts or gargoyles would be plenty to touch everything you've infiltrated in the midfield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fueli wrote:
It could be fun to equip those keels with counterfire too, as 5+ rerollable is better than flat 4+ if I recall right. They're going to be targeted anyhow, by shooting or charging.

Problem is cost. At 10ppm, it's too much for stealth teams.

Fortunately you know your facing Tyranids before you deploy so you can change your tactics as needed.

 Ordana wrote:
Fortunately you know your facing Tyranids before you deploy so you can change your tactics as needed.

Agreed. I definitely wouldn't be all up in their grill, because that definitely is suicide. Maybe right outside of your DZ in cover would be best.

So I'm confused by these magical Genestealers.

1. They had to pop a stratagem to get near your line of Fire Warriors or Kroot. Sure, that's great. Probably doable, depends on the map, but I can see that happening.
2. They can't actually fight your second line, because they didn't declare a charge against them and fighting again doesn't allow you to either charge again nor fight a unit you didn't charge that turn. Nor are the Genestealers actually near enough to your second line to fight them without charging, even if they were eligible to fight them.

What those Genestealers probably do in that scenario is munch your Stealth squad, then consolidate into LOS blocking cover if at all possible. Because if they don't consolidate into cover, they're about to find out how a T4 5++ 1W unit fares against a Tau army's shooting phase.

They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.

Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.

 Fueli wrote:
They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.

Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.

Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.

 meleti wrote:

 Fueli wrote:
They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.

Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.

Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.

Aight, that settles it.

I do think there’s a strong case for deploying fire warriors in base to base, so the enemy can’t surround them. Then stand Darkstrider and a fireblade behind them. Then ask your opponent if he even needs you to roll the dice before he puts his stealers back in his case.

Infantry spam looks pretty strong post FAQ, but Darkstrider feels like a necessary component of it.

First off, this all started when I pointed out that, as people said afterward, YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH STEALTH SUITS. Because people like the guy I'm quoting below, don't understand what's happening. They are amazing at shutting down some armies, but in some situations, they can be a liability.

 meleti wrote:

 Fueli wrote:
They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.

Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.

Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.

Right, but after they overrun they can adrenaline surge, which lets a unit fight again. So, you can then pile in and consolidate, tying up the units. It's a filthy combo that works really well. All it takes is a single infiltrated unit in the middle of the board and 4 CP to suddenly shut down an entire gunline army, if they aren't expecting it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
I do think there’s a strong case for deploying fire warriors in base to base, so the enemy can’t surround them. Then stand Darkstrider and a fireblade behind them. Then ask your opponent if he even needs you to roll the dice before he puts his stealers back in his case.

Infantry spam looks pretty strong post FAQ, but Darkstrider feels like a necessary component of it.

You have to be two deep base to base to stop the hug of death, because they can offset on round bases if you're only one deep and trap the guy on the end of the line. If they had a 20" move first turn, with overrun there's still a good chance they can totally envelope a whole unit as well.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.

So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.

You wouldn't lose your shooting phase. Stealth suits can fly.

You've missed the point.

Genestealers move up around the stealth suits, charge them, wipe them out.

They pop overrun, which lets them move again. They move their modified distance (So likely 18-20" after they used kraken strat earlier in the turn) up to 1.1" from most of your army. They then pop adrenaline surge which lets them fight again. They pile in to a bunch of your units. They cannot swing because they did not declare charges against these targets. They then consolidate, likely surrounding at least 1 model so it cannot fall back (Fire warriors, broadsides, kroot, marksmen, fireblades, etc.).

You now cannot shoot, and if they did surround a non-fly unit, you cannot fall back and then shoot them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Well, if they want to send in a unit of Genestealers against a blob of stealth units, I wish them good luck. From 9 Stealth Suits and 3 dakka Ghostkeels, I count about 12 dead Stealers just from Overwatch. I don't see that as an efficient use of that unit, given that whatever is left will just fly away and spray firepower elsewhere.

That's assuming they don't eat overwatch with other units first? Tyranids are more than capable of assaulting infiltrators with more than one unit of genestealers.

Onslaught on a unit of hormagaunts or gargoyles would be plenty to touch everything you've infiltrated in the midfield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fueli wrote:
It could be fun to equip those keels with counterfire too, as 5+ rerollable is better than flat 4+ if I recall right. They're going to be targeted anyhow, by shooting or charging.

Problem is cost. At 10ppm, it's too much for stealth teams.

play tau sept and you can pretty much invite geensteelers to charge you. Played nids against tau the first week they came out. Charged with tyrgon 20 steelers and a flying hive. Lost everything but 10 steelers to the overwatch. Storm surge has some pretty scary overwatch regardless of what sept it is. Probably not the best decision by me but I didn't really have a lot of options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
I do think there’s a strong case for deploying fire warriors in base to base, so the enemy can’t surround them. Then stand Darkstrider and a fireblade behind them. Then ask your opponent if he even needs you to roll the dice before he puts his stealers back in his case.

Infantry spam looks pretty strong post FAQ, but Darkstrider feels like a necessary component of it.

Dark striders isn't bad - I want to use him but - A fireblade seems superior - esp if you want to spread your firewarriors out a bit (which you should - they are your screening unit. So 2 fireblades is what I usually take plus an ethereal. Could swap dark strider for that ethereal I guess - but the FNP is really nice too. I think darkstrider works best with breachers - but not because of his fall back and shoot ability but the +1 to wound ability.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
First off, this all started when I pointed out that, as people said afterward, YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH STEALTH SUITS. Because people like the guy I'm quoting below, don't understand what's happening. They are amazing at shutting down some armies, but in some situations, they can be a liability.

 meleti wrote:

 Fueli wrote:
They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.

Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.

Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.

Right, but after they overrun they can adrenaline surge, which lets a unit fight again. So, you can then pile in and consolidate, tying up the units. It's a filthy combo that works really well. All it takes is a single infiltrated unit in the middle of the board and 4 CP to suddenly shut down an entire gunline army, if they aren't expecting it.

No, they can't. Whoever does that is cheating, because a unit that charged can only fight a unit they declared a charge against, which they clearly didn't here.

edit: so I did look at this again. I believe the Genestealers can pile in, but cannot actually fight the second unit, and obviously they must end both their pile in and consolidation closer to the nearest enemy model. Best case scenario is they've encircled some Fire Warriors (who cannot fall back) and thus can't be shot at in the Tau player's turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd have to play some more games where a player did this, but I can't see the Genestealers actually encircling the second unit a majority of the time. You can string the Fire Warriors out 10" which should deny the encirclement in most deployment types. And obviously if you've got Kroot instead of Fire Warriors encircling a 10 man Kroot squad is probably not going to happen.

I did this with hormagaunts, it worked really well. If you can get into the right position you don't even need overrun.

Works only if there is some non flying model that you can surround though.