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Hmmm you’re right! so that essentially means that both The power and the strat on the same unit is pointless.
So I can put the power on Draigo, and the strat on Paladins!

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Hmmm you’re right! so that essentially means that both The power and the strat on the same unit is pointless.
So I can put the power on Draigo, and the strat on Paladins!

Yes, and no. As stated, S3 and S4 weapons are impacted by the -1 to wound ability (which TP does not impact as they already require at least natural 4s to successfully wound). If you've got a unit on a point that absolutely positively must survive, and expect your opponent to throw the kitchen sink of weapon strengths at you, there is an argument to be made for utilizing them both.

It'll potentially be an edge case, but it does exist.

Are Stormravens going to be good with Ritual of the Damned? Will we still want to transport purifiers with them or is there a case for 2 Purgation squads being moved midfield with them?

Rihgu wrote:
Are Stormravens going to be good with Ritual of the Damned? Will we still want to transport purifiers with them or is there a case for 2 Purgation squads being moved midfield with them?

They're certainly going to be better than they were. Ultimately, I think that Grey Knights already have tons of mobility and points will be better spent on more units as opposed to big single units. Purifiers have some play but at the end of the day, it's still more of a suicide trade which is something that Grey Knights do not want to do.

Yea I think Stormraven might be a trap. Sure -2 to Hit is a a nice boost, but then comes something like a IgnoreHitModifier Double Gatling Knight and Blows is away T1

stormcraft wrote:
Yea I think Stormraven might be a trap. Sure -2 to Hit is a a nice boost, but then comes something like a IgnoreHitModifier Double Gatling Knight and Blows is away T1

Or orks. Or sisters of battle(though those you could counter with deployment at least. Though unless you can hide you still eat 3d3 S8 -3 Dd6 ignore hit modifiers). Or number of other options.

Necrons will absolutely hate dealing with that if they can't ignore it though.

My impression of playing lately with my Eldar and Custodes (mostly vs Marines) is that hit modifiers are definitely not what they once were for keeping yourself safe from shooting. They're nice of course but it seems there's always a tool to get around them. I'm actually becoming more excited about always being in cover.

To me the question becomes which is actually better now? Land raider crusader or stormraven? Assuming your not dropping a dreadnought off in the raven they have very close stats and abilities now. I own both and was originally going to paint the crusader for my black templars (because they need 3) and the raven for my grey knights but now I am torn. Thoughts?

I'd take a default lascannon Land Raider over a Crusader for Grey Knights. They have plenty of bolter shots already, but are generally lacking for high strength multi damage shots.

And considering a Land Raider is now cheaper than a Stormraven, while being tougher and it also comes with more lascannons, I'd probably take a Land Raider over a Stormraven too.

The extra mobility of the Stormraven is not as big of a bonus for GK as they have lots of deep strike options, Gate of Infinity and Astral Aim.

Have some questions we've never had before thanks to the new Grey Knight changes. Friend is a GK player and played against my Ultramarine Primaris.

Our biggest question is how Heroic Intervention works. With the strat of being 3 inches away, can you drop a Apoc 3 inches away and it heroic intervention to avoid overwatch?

Slightly different, can you run up and advance a dreadknight 3 inches away from the enemy and heroic intervention into it to avoid overwatch?

Both are pretty scary to my bubbles, as they can easily murder my Repulsor Executioners so it would be nice to know lol.

Finally and I've seen it mentioned so I'm sure its fine... but you can stack Psybolt Ammo with the Tide to make basically all the units weapons buffed up correct?

FYI - Grey Knights hurt now. I've had an issue where as a Primaris player I win alot against other factions. These Psy combinations, No LoS Naughts and Invul 3 with shinanigans Dreadknights are nasty.

edit - I think we found the issue but please confirm. Just realized I think heroic intervention is on the enemies turn after their charges, not on the players turn (GK in this case) that is trying to HI.

Yes, Psybolt ammo makes the bolt weapons it affects also psi weapons, so they would be affected by the Tide of Convergence - as long as it's an Infantry unit.

And yes, Herioc Intervention is only in reaction to an enemy charging; you can't do it on your own turn.

Keramory wrote:
Have some questions we've never had before thanks to the new Grey Knight changes. Friend is a GK player and played against my Ultramarine Primaris.

Our biggest question is how Heroic Intervention works. With the strat of being 3 inches away, can you drop a Apoc 3 inches away and it heroic intervention to avoid overwatch?

Slightly different, can you run up and advance a dreadknight 3 inches away from the enemy and heroic intervention into it to avoid overwatch?

Both are pretty scary to my bubbles, as they can easily murder my Repulsor Executioners so it would be nice to know lol.

Finally and I've seen it mentioned so I'm sure its fine... but you can stack Psybolt Ammo with the Tide to make basically all the units weapons buffed up correct?

FYI - Grey Knights hurt now. I've had an issue where as a Primaris player I win alot against other factions. These Psy combinations, No LoS Naughts and Invul 3 with shinanigans Dreadknights are nasty.

edit - I think we found the issue but please confirm. Just realized I think heroic intervention is on the enemies turn after their charges, not on the players turn (GK in this case) that is trying to HI.

In the designer's commentary it states you can never perform a heroic intervention in your own turn.

Also, the stratagem requires you to deep strike OVER 3" away. Heroic INtervention requires you to select a unit WITHIN 3". So it doesn't work on 2 counts.


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 greyknight12 wrote:
From the N/R Thread:
Stratagems
2CP - Masters of Combat 2. Dead Paladins attack back
1CP - Overwhelming Assault 1 CP Dreadknight gains +1 attack, rerolling wound and damage rolls of 1
2CP - Bring Down The Beast reroll wounds agasint a vehicle or monster during the shooting phase
1CP - Fight On The Move Interceptors can shoot or charge if they fell back
1/2CP - Redoubtable Defense Termintor units only. 1 CP for 5 models 2 for 10. Ranged attacks are -1 damage
1CP - Untainted Purifiers get 4+ invul
1CP Senses 1 CP Purges overwatch on 4s

Psyker spells
Dominus only for characters only, cant mix
Armored Resiliance - WC 6 Infantry are -1 to wound
Ethereal Manipulation - WC 7 Reroll hit rolls for ranged weapons at half distance
Edict - WC7 Shoot and then move during the psyker phase, that unit can not shoot advance or move that turn

Relics
Shard - Reroll results of psyker tests and add 1 to the result
Scrolls - Nemesis weapons gain exploding 6s (my GMDK has a relic)

Litanies
Faith - 6" bubble 5+ FnP for mortal wounds
Ward - Unit rerolls damage rolls for a random damage weapon
Guidance - Unit ignores hit and ballistic skill modifiers
Focus - Unit gains -1 AP to any nemesis or psy weapon


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I'd like to add:

Inner Fire: WC5. Select 1 enemy unit within 1" of the caster. Roll a number of dice equal to the result of the psychic test. For each roll of 1, the psyker suffers a MW. For each roll of 3+, the enemy unit suffers a MW.

So with an average roll, the psyker suffers 1 MW, and the target 5.

Empyrean Domination: WC7, gain 1CP

Warp Shaping: WC5, change the active Tides of the Warp to a different one effective immediately.

Ethereal Manipulation WC7 targets a friendly GREY KNIGHT unit within 6", and that unit CAN reroll the hit roll (so, it's the good wording of reroll) when making an attack in the shooting phase vs an enemy within half range. Hi there, lascannons on your land raider.

Armored Resilience WC6: Friendly GREY KNIGHTS INFANTRY within 12" are -1 to wound.

Edict: WC7. Friendly GREY KNIGHTS unit shoots then moves immediately, can't advance, can't charge or shoot again this turn.

So this effectively grants JSJ to one selected GK unit. Maybe the most situational power of the bunch. But, overall, this is a very powerful psychic discipline, which gives very good reasons to take GK characters.

Anyone else think that if your going to do imperial soup then its definitely worth spending 100pts on a aux detachment and taking a grey knights librarian? It costs a cp but he can sit back and generate 1cp a turn so that's an extra 5cp for 100 pts, plus he can cast another power, sit back and hold an objective and be a counter charge unit, I am seeing a lot of versatility in him.

Thanks for the adds @the_scotsman. According to the Goonhammer review there is also a strat called “powerful adept” that increases the range of psychic powers by 6”, making the Inner Fire power a lot more deadly. I’ve also seen a grainy image that claims one chaplain litany is a +3 to deny for a unit.

I really like the JSJ power, combined with astral aim it gives you 2 units that can hide out of LOS and still shoot. Good for purgation squads.
I’m trying to keep an open mind, but I’m still really skeptical of paladins. A squad of 4 costs the same as 2 strike squads, and while a lot more durable I feel like the extra storm bolter and mortal wound output of the strikes is more valuable. I have watched way too many of my T6 W4 2+/4++ -1 to hit Custodes bikes just die to be impressed with paladins’ durability. In a meta where people are gearing up to kill assault centurions (which have similar buffs) I just don’t think they are RELATIVELY durable enough. That said, I would love to be wrong since I have wayyy too many GK terminators and they are one of my favorite models (the old metal ones).


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Azuza001 wrote:
Anyone else think that if your going to do imperial soup then its definitely worth spending 100pts on a aux detachment and taking a grey knights librarian? It costs a cp but he can sit back and generate 1cp a turn so that's an extra 5cp for 100 pts, plus he can cast another power, sit back and hold an objective and be a counter charge unit, I am seeing a lot of versatility in him.

Maybe, but you can get similar results out of an inquisitor for cheaper and without burning a detachment as well. Some of it will depend on if that power is subject to the “regain CP” rules already in place limiting you to one per turn. That said, GK librarians have some decent melee ability and access to gate of Infinity.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Thanks for the adds @the_scotsman. According to the Goonhammer review there is also a strat called “powerful adept” that increases the range of psychic powers by 6”, making the Inner Fire power a lot more deadly. I’ve also seen a grainy image that claims one chaplain litany is a +3 to deny for a unit.

I really like the JSJ power, combined with astral aim it gives you 2 units that can hide out of LOS and still shoot. Good for purgation squads.
I’m trying to keep an open mind, but I’m still really skeptical of paladins. A squad of 4 costs the same as 2 strike squads, and while a lot more durable I feel like the extra storm bolter and mortal wound output of the strikes is more valuable. I have watched way too many of my T6 W4 2+/4++ -1 to hit Custodes bikes just die to be impressed with paladins’ durability. In a meta where people are gearing up to kill assault centurions (which have similar buffs) I just don’t think they are RELATIVELY durable enough. That said, I would love to be wrong since I have wayyy too many GK terminators and they are one of my favorite models (the old metal ones).


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Azuza001 wrote:
Anyone else think that if your going to do imperial soup then its definitely worth spending 100pts on a aux detachment and taking a grey knights librarian? It costs a cp but he can sit back and generate 1cp a turn so that's an extra 5cp for 100 pts, plus he can cast another power, sit back and hold an objective and be a counter charge unit, I am seeing a lot of versatility in him.

Maybe, but you can get similar results out of an inquisitor for cheaper and without burning a detachment as well. Some of it will depend on if that power is subject to the “regain CP” rules already in place limiting you to one per turn. That said, GK librarians have some decent melee ability and access to gate of Infinity.

You either get Gate or the CP regeneration, you aren't allowed both on the same model.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You either get Gate or the CP regeneration, you aren't allowed both on the same model.

That's not exactly true, Loremaster.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You either get Gate or the CP regeneration, you aren't allowed both on the same model.

That's not exactly true, Loremaster.

Hmm, true, that's something I forgot about mostly because Sanctic is garbage basically. However you're giving up a Warlord Trait to do that, and Librarians aren't exactly the best choice for a Warlord. It just seems a lot easier to use an Inquisitor at that point.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Thanks for the adds @the_scotsman. According to the Goonhammer review there is also a strat called “powerful adept” that increases the range of psychic powers by 6”, making the Inner Fire power a lot more deadly. I’ve also seen a grainy image that claims one chaplain litany is a +3 to deny for a unit.

Yeah, the Powerful Adept strat is for units with the rules Rites of Banishment only though. And +3 to deny litany is for the Chaplain himself, it cannot be put on another GK unit close by.

I dont disagree that an inquisitor is a great option that can generate cp. But they are not as easily guaranteed as the cp from the librarian. The inquisitor has to be close enough to an enemy chr to cast the spell (which means they are probably in deny range) as well as rolling high enough vs the enemy chrs leadership to grab said cp. Granted that part isnt as hard, but it's the difference between your inquisitior having to go to the enemy to get a cp vs the enemy having to come to you to stop you from getting cp.

psipso wrote:
I read that people were considering to stack empyric surge and pshycic channeling strats to have a super vortex of doom.

I made some maths:

Not empyric surge and not pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 8.3 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 41.6 %

Empyric surge and not pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 16.7 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 58.4 %

Not Empyric surge and pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 19.9 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 68.0 %

Empyric surge and pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 35.6 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 80.6 %

I wonder if it worths the 2 CP to pull this out.

Now that we know that in top of that we have this artisan nullifier matrix relic that can add + 1 to a roll dice in the psychic test I should ask:

Empyric surge and pshycic channeling under the influence of artisan nullifier matrix:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 52.3 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 89.4 %

I begin to envision a 10 man interceptor unit with vortex of doom forming a conga line from 12" away of a point flooded with MSU till somewhere at 6" from a librarian sitting in someplace safe.


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after that cast GI or edict imperator shunt away the interceptors back to a safe spot

Do we have a baseline for theorycrafting for the new codex? I've seen maths supporting Falchion spam, Psycannons over Psilncers and vise versa, conflicting info all over the place

 greyknight12 wrote:
I’m trying to keep an open mind, but I’m still really skeptical of paladins. A squad of 4 costs the same as 2 strike squads, and while a lot more durable I feel like the extra storm bolter and mortal wound output of the strikes is more valuable. I have watched way too many of my T6 W4 2+/4++ -1 to hit Custodes bikes just die to be impressed with paladins’ durability. In a meta where people are gearing up to kill assault centurions (which have similar buffs) I just don’t think they are RELATIVELY durable enough. That said, I would love to be wrong since I have wayyy too many GK terminators and they are one of my favorite models (the old metal ones).

I think there are two significant differences between Paladins and Custodes bikes. Paladins will have 1+/4++ and -1 to hit. But in addition to that:

the 10-man block of Pallies (which is 30 wounds!) will have Transhuman Physiology, making S8+ weaponry 40% less effective (knocking out 2/5 wound results).

they will have -1 damage, making anything with 3D half as effective (it takes two shots now to kill a model, rather than 1), making it impossible for d3 weapons to outright kill a model (eg. force and battlecannons), and making overcharged plasma, with its 2D, woefully ineffective!

MiguelFelstone wrote:
Do we have a baseline for theorycrafting for the new codex? I've seen maths supporting Falchion spam, Psycannons over Psilncers and vise versa, conflicting info all over the place

Psycannons are better vs most things over t5 under most situations. Those are the things you need heavy weapons for for the most part. Storm bolters can handle the t4 targets.

Actually.. someone on Reddit did the Math with Mathhammer

https://old.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ervdwo/grey_knights_tide_of_convergence_mathhammer/

Psycannons arent better against T5, maybe against T7/8 , but at t 4/5 tide with stormbolter beats everytthing

I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.

Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.

Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.

There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....

GK number crunching

Thanks for the math but why are you not using all the Buffs you used for Psilencer and Psycannon for Stormbolters too?

Psybolt Ammunition turns Stormbolters into Psy weapons so they benefit from Convergence too

A full 10 man Squad of Paladins has 40 S6 -2ap 2 Damage Stormbolter Shots.

 FFridge wrote:
Thanks for the math but why are you not using all the Buffs you used for Psilencer and Psycannon for Stormbolters too?

Psybolt Ammunition turns Stormbolters into Psy weapons so they benefit from Convergence too

A full 10 man Squad of Paladins has 40 S6 -2ap 2 Damage Stormbolter Shots.

I was looking mainly at our ranged anti-tank, since that has been so lacking lately.

An how do you claim that the psybolt strat turns stormbolters into “psi weapons” as required by Convergence? I can see the fluff claim, but I’m not convinced on rules. In fact, the rules of the strat don’t mention anything about psi weapons, and simply say to increase S and AP.

The definition of psy weapons has been updated in the book to include psybolt bolter weapons.

Why take Librarians over a Grand Master? Yes, one more deny and the psychic hood, but the Grand Master gives the reroll 1s aura and has a better stat line. What am I missing?

 Xenomancers wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:
Do we have a baseline for theorycrafting for the new codex? I've seen maths supporting Falchion spam, Psycannons over Psilncers and vise versa, conflicting info all over the place

Psycannons are better vs most things over t5 under most situations. Those are the things you need heavy weapons for for the most part. Storm bolters can handle the t4 targets.

This was exactly my thought.

FFridge & Greywolf - you guys rock


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The definition of psy weapons has been updated in the book to include psybolt bolter weapons.

Why take Librarians over a Grand Master? Yes, one more deny and the psychic hood, but the Grand Master gives the reroll 1s aura and has a better stat line. What am I missing?

The new Librarian only relic that makes everyone within 6" more or less immune to pearls (once per turn +1 to any roll cast or deny i believe).
Edit: I could see this getting a lot of play, i plan on testing it this weekend

But the +1 to cast and rerolls to cast relic works on a Grand Master as well, right?

EDIT: I know the two relics are two different relics, but isn't the +1 to cast and rerolls relic pretty much an auto-take?