Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 GuardStrider wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.

I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.

Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.

I might try to use Draigo in a landraider with a 8 man strike squad which I will gate where needed.

\

On T2.

With the wording as it is, Gate of Infinity and the Interceptor Shunt both seem to keep you stuck in your deployment zone T1.

Well the rule says "any unit that arrives on the battlefield on the players first turn", as I interpreted it it, they are already deployed on the battlefield so they can use those abilities as normal.

Right, but then read the text for GoI and Shunt. You take the unit off the battlefield and then it arrives. Thus, it is arriving on the battlefield on the first turn.

Well fu- you are right, I hate this faq even more, I don't know how to play this army anymore

We're in really bad shape and I don't know either. That makes two of us.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 TheMostWize wrote:
If that affected GoI and shunt then it would be obvious GW has no clue what they are doing. That being said GoI without having the rest of your entire army there in support won't be useful. So you'd have to run interceptors which means once again we dont have many command points.

Strategies that effect units coming on to the board from off board work vs GoI and shunt is just a minor variation of GoI. So, GW counts GoI the same as Deep Striking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@GuardStrider - even if you have Draigo in your Land Raider he still can't effect anything until turn 2 since he would be embarked and therefore his aura doesn't come into play. You'd have to wait till the start of turn 2 to get him out of the raider and onto the board.

Yea well they could obviously re word the final form of the rule but your point remains.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Strategies that effect units coming on to the board from off board work vs GoI

Where's the FAQ that states this? If this is true, then GW is saying, in a roundabout way, "Gate of Infinity cannot be cast on the first turn."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would recommend that every single GK player on this thread email GW with their questions regarding Deep Striking and how much it affects our FLUFFY playstyle specifically.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@GuardStrider - even if you have Draigo in your Land Raider he still can't effect anything until turn 2 since he would be embarked and therefore his aura doesn't come into play. You'd have to wait till the start of turn 2 to get him out of the raider and onto the board.

Units disembark at the beginning of movement phase, so in theory if you could gate on the 1st turn you would gate in the psychic phase and disembark at the beginning of movement, so they would still use the aura

Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.

...which is still T2. T1 move, Draigo stays inside. T1 Psychic, Raider teleports. T1 shoot, charge, fight. T2 move, Draigo gets out.

...that's T2.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
...which is still T2. T1 move, Draigo stays inside. T1 Psychic, Raider teleports. T1 shoot, charge, fight. T2 move, Draigo gets out.

...that's T2.

Unless you're stuck in your deployment zone T1 because GoI is reinforcements. I mean, you could still get Draigo out T2, but why bother putting him in T1 in that case?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
...which is still T2. T1 move, Draigo stays inside. T1 Psychic, Raider teleports. T1 shoot, charge, fight. T2 move, Draigo gets out.

...that's T2.

Sigh you are right, ignore me, I had a tiresome day

Audustum wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
...which is still T2. T1 move, Draigo stays inside. T1 Psychic, Raider teleports. T1 shoot, charge, fight. T2 move, Draigo gets out.

...that's T2.

Unless you're stuck in your deployment zone T1 because GoI is reinforcements. I mean, you could still get Draigo out T2, but why bother putting him in T1 in that case?

How is GoI reinforcements? If the unit is not set up in tactical reserves, where the rule about DS in T1 lives, but is set up on the board, how does no GoI out of deployment work? I get that the unit is removed from the board and re-set up 9in away from an enemy, has all the smell of a deep strike, but ... It's not in tactical reserves, so I should be able to do what I want with as far as GoI and Shunt go if I placed it on the board before T1 started.

It's shady, and needs a clarification from GW, amongst other things

Edit - I think the intention is to only apply that rule to units that are set up in deep strike reserve / tactical reserves, but the way it's worded is really crappy. The rule lives clearly in the box describing all the rules for tactical reserves but broadly says, "Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)." So it's definitely susceptible to semantics shenanigans. Lame

Sooooo, if I must share a keyword thats not Imperium - I cannot field imperial Knights anymore, can I?
They have thought about Assassins, but forgot about Knights?

Regarding Assassins: there is no way to field a single Assassin anymore. right? will have to be 3 to fill that vanguard detachement.

Yea you would have to field them in a group of 3. Unless you lose the command point and take a single 1.

But if the battle brother rule sticks then you would lose your battle forged benefits as the way I'm understanding the rule so that wouldn't be worth doing anyway.

Aeri wrote:
Sooooo, if I must share a keyword thats not Imperium - I cannot field imperial Knights anymore, can I?
They have thought about Assassins, but forgot about Knights?

Regarding Assassins: there is no way to field a single Assassin anymore. right? will have to be 3 to fill that vanguard detachement.

Can't you just field a knight in a Super heavy auxiliary detachment?

No, because the anti soup rule doesnt allow it.

.... I may be done with Grey Knights for a while

Aeri wrote:
No, because the anti soup rule doesnt allow it.

I guess I am missing something, why can't you use it with the Knight keyword?

Just playing Devil's Advocate here. But isn't there some addition by subtraction going on with the new FAQ?

The beta rules in the new FAQ affect everyone equally. Grey Knights can't deep strike turn one, but neither can your opponent. This affects GKs inordinately because of the lack of long range firepower.

However, you can now add assassins within a Vanguard detachment. Vinidcare assassins shoot 72 inches, can target characters, they hit and wound on a 2+, their weapons are AP-3 / Dd3 and they ignore invulnerable saves.

Sure, an opponent can get into position turn one and lay down some lascannon shots on a Land Raider or a Storm Raven. But we can now get first turn character kills, removing auras before we drop in to cause some damage. Then we can do it again the next turn because they are characters and can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit. With a CP reroll, the odds of getting 5+ wounds each turn is around 90%.

3 Vindicares are not cheap, but wouldn't this be an advantage, deep striking turn 2 against a softer force?

iodan333 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
...which is still T2. T1 move, Draigo stays inside. T1 Psychic, Raider teleports. T1 shoot, charge, fight. T2 move, Draigo gets out.

...that's T2.

Unless you're stuck in your deployment zone T1 because GoI is reinforcements. I mean, you could still get Draigo out T2, but why bother putting him in T1 in that case?

How is GoI reinforcements? If the unit is not set up in tactical reserves, where the rule about DS in T1 lives, but is set up on the board, how does no GoI out of deployment work? I get that the unit is removed from the board and re-set up 9in away from an enemy, has all the smell of a deep strike, but ... It's not in tactical reserves, so I should be able to do what I want with as far as GoI and Shunt go if I placed it on the board before T1 started.

It's shady, and needs a clarification from GW, amongst other things

Edit - I think the intention is to only apply that rule to units that are set up in deep strike reserve / tactical reserves, but the way it's worded is really crappy. The rule lives clearly in the box describing all the rules for tactical reserves but broadly says, "Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)." So it's definitely susceptible to semantics shenanigans. Lame

Read Reserves carefully in your main rulebook. It specifically provides that it also applies to things that arrive "on the battlefield" during a turn, not just before T1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aeri wrote:
No, because the anti soup rule doesnt allow it.

The soup rule applies only to DETACHMENTS not to the whole ARMY.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.

Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.

I'm following the logic like this:

GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.

How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?

That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.

The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much.

Edit - Just for reference, since I was asked to read the rules carefuly, here's what's on page 177 from the BRB (cut and pasted):

REINFORCEMENTS

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed

Here's page 215 Tactical reserves (cut and pasted):

TACTICAL RESERVES

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

So, I get it says "mid-turn." I appreciate the grim outlook too. IF the rule interpretation is legit that GoI would be restricted to own zone on 1st rule because of the above, then you have to kill them in turn 4 if they Gate too. I'd be surprised if that's the intention, but hey, it's Grey Knights, right?

iodan333 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.

Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.

I'm following the logic like this:

GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.

How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?

That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.

The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much

I don't disagree with your logic or the apparent absurdity, but, if anyone ever tried to enforce that with me, I would never play against them again.

I'm sure they didn't think this through all the way, which is why it's a beta rule. They are waiting for people to tell them edge cases like this exist.

"All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common."

Not my native language, but for me it reads like everything must have the same keyword. Will gladly accept that I'm wrong though!

Aeri wrote:
"All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common."

Not my native language, but for me it reads like everything must have the same keyword. Will gladly accept that I'm wrong though!

All of the units in each Detachment
Not my native language too, but I read that as saying that they must have the same keyword inside of the same detachments . So you can't have celestine leading a grey knights detachment, but can have a grey knight detachment and a sisters of battle one with Celestine.

techsoldaten,

It is totally absurd, which is why I don't think it's right. I think we're gonna be able to use Gate of Infinity and Teleport Shunt to get get right in peoples faces on turn 1 as much as we want. I think the whole "mid-turn" thing is in reference to actual reserves / reinforcements who were deployed as such before T1 arriving later in turns, not stuff on the board already. But, again, we'll see what level of disappoint we're in for I emailed GW's feedback with the above questions.

You've got to love these devs...

First round of Beta-rules concerning smite spam: "Holy feth, we totally forgot how this could affect Grey Knights...They already had a smite nerf and this makes them the weakest psykers in the game, so lets make them exempt, our bad..."

Second wave of beta rules concerning deepstriking: "what are Grey Knights?"

Yup,

Meanwhile the gunline armies sit back and laugh, still strong and with more command points than ever.

I hope that this is just a really messy written rule and they didnt intend to restrict spells and shunts.

I have also emailed them. I am hoping weight of emails will cause a reaponse.

If this is the worst case scenario we are going to have to LOS turn one (if terrain allows) from gunlines basically pass our turn other than maybe some raven shots or a landraider and then start turn 2 with whatever gaps they have kindly left us to land in.

I'm not all doom and gloom some big heavy hitters were raised in price and we do get the smite tweak (I won't say buff

look at our grey knight codex down there at the bottom of the FAQ list with no love.

Spartacus wrote:
Yup,

Meanwhile the gunline armies sit back and laugh, still strong and with more command points than ever.

My guardsmen have sooooo many command points now. so. many.

So glad I just finished painting all of my models, for my very first grey knights and 40k game tomorrow... I'm sure it's gonna be even more of a blast with this DS rule change... Why GW.... why??

iodan333 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.

Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.

I'm following the logic like this:

GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.


How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?

That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.

The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much.

Edit - Just for reference, since I was asked to read the rules carefuly, here's what's on page 177 from the BRB (cut and pasted):

REINFORCEMENTS

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed

Here's page 215 Tactical reserves (cut and pasted):

TACTICAL RESERVES

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

So, I get it says "mid-turn." I appreciate the grim outlook too. IF the rule interpretation is legit that GoI would be restricted to own zone on 1st rule because of the above, then you have to kill them in turn 4 if they Gate too. I'd be surprised if that's the intention, but hey, it's Grey Knights, right?

Just as some additional information, in Index: Xenos 1 there is a question about how Swooping Hawks interact with Tactical Reserves killing units after turn 3. It is clearly stated that it does not effect them as long as they have already been on the board before turn 3 as the first time the touch the board is when they "arrive", not every time they are set up again. It uses the same remove from the battlefield, then setup more than 9" away language GoI and Shunt do.

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.

Gk player: Okay! What mission shall we play? Any rules I should know about? And are we playing beta rules?

Opponent: Hi! How about dominate and destroy? And yeah, lets give them a go...

GK Player: gg.

Freezerassasin wrote:

iodan333 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.

Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.

I'm following the logic like this:

GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.


How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?

That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.

The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much.

Edit - Just for reference, since I was asked to read the rules carefuly, here's what's on page 177 from the BRB (cut and pasted):

REINFORCEMENTS

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed

Here's page 215 Tactical reserves (cut and pasted):

TACTICAL RESERVES

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

So, I get it says "mid-turn." I appreciate the grim outlook too. IF the rule interpretation is legit that GoI would be restricted to own zone on 1st rule because of the above, then you have to kill them in turn 4 if they Gate too. I'd be surprised if that's the intention, but hey, it's Grey Knights, right?

Just as some additional information, in Index: Xenos 1 there is a question about how Swooping Hawks interact with Tactical Reserves killing units after turn 3. It is clearly stated that it does not effect them as long as they have already been on the board before turn 3 as the first time the touch the board is when they "arrive", not every time they are set up again. It uses the same remove from the battlefield, then setup more than 9" away language GoI and Shunt do.

Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.

Well good, so shunts and GoI should be unaffected, a small mercy in this mess