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But when the stealers can arrive turn 1, why wait?

I think horms are good (and also much improved) but they're just overshadowed by the stealers

 luke1705 wrote:
But when the stealers can arrive turn 1, why wait?

I think horms are good (and also much improved) but they're just overshadowed by the stealers

There is going to be plenty that are screened that you can't hit and the chances are its the likes of devestators which you won't hit Turn 2 which will wipe out your hard hitting stuff that managed a first turn charge on the disposable units he let you charge because he knows what your plan is

PUFNSTUF wrote:

Pardon my ignorance, but what loadout makes a tyranofex? Just pure melee?

Tyranofex is not a carnifex loadout like dakkafex, meleefex, distractionfex.
it's it's own model and shares a kit with the Tervigon
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Tyranid-Tyrannofex?_requestid=8455371

Speaking of turn 1 assaults and threat overload... I am thinking of running the following combination:

Trygon Prime + 30 Termagaunts with Devourers
Trygon + 15 Genestealers (can 20 fit without blocking the Trygon?)
Tyrannocyte + Swarmlord

For this set-up Genestealers are almost assured a charge using the Swarmlords ability. The Trygon also have a good chance with adrenal glands. I could spend a command point to re-roll for the Swarmlord to get him in as well. The Gaunts shoot and act as a screen for the Prime, who will try to assault the next turn.

My question is, how would you fill out the rest of the army? I don't have the exact points, but I think the above 6 units come out to around 1350 points. Not a whole lot of leeway in building a 6 unit force to start on the table.

Thoughts / feedback are welcome.

nickthewise wrote:
Speaking of turn 1 assaults and threat overload... I am thinking of running the following combination:

Trygon Prime + 3 Dakka Fex
Trygon + Swarmlord
Tyrannocyte + 20 Genestealers

For this set-up Genestealers are almost assured a charge using the Swarmlords ability. Both Trygons also have a good chance with adrenal glands. I could spend a command point to re-roll for the Swarmlord to get him in as well. The Dakka Fexes can soften up any supporting units (and since they have a Synapse creature nearby, won't have to target the closest model).

My question is, how would you fill out the rest of the army? I don't have the exact points, but I think the above 6 units come out to around 1500 points. Not a whole lot of leeway in building a 6 unit force to start on the table.

Thoughts / feedback are welcome.

Trygon and Trygon Prime can only bring troop options and Tyranocyte can only bring a single monsterous creature. So you could get Trygon+ Stealers and Tyranocyte+ Swarmlord as a combo but would need another Tyranocyte for each Carnifex, which would also need to be taken as separate units.

As a "tax" troop then Hgaunt points are better spent on stealers or termagants. If you deploy them, you do in big numbers. Big numbers means a lot of enemy units tied up with a single charge and makes them easier to cover with venoms.
What hgaunts don't do is take down units by themselves, you got other stuff for that.

wizerdree wrote:

nickthewise wrote:
Speaking of turn 1 assaults and threat overload... I am thinking of running the following combination:

Trygon Prime + 3 Dakka Fex
Trygon + Swarmlord
Tyrannocyte + 20 Genestealers

For this set-up Genestealers are almost assured a charge using the Swarmlords ability. Both Trygons also have a good chance with adrenal glands. I could spend a command point to re-roll for the Swarmlord to get him in as well. The Dakka Fexes can soften up any supporting units (and since they have a Synapse creature nearby, won't have to target the closest model).

My question is, how would you fill out the rest of the army? I don't have the exact points, but I think the above 6 units come out to around 1500 points. Not a whole lot of leeway in building a 6 unit force to start on the table.

Thoughts / feedback are welcome.

Trygon and Trygon Prime can only bring troop options and Tyranocyte can only bring a single monsterous creature. So you could get Trygon+ Stealers and Tyranocyte+ Swarmlord as a combo but would need another Tyranocyte for each Carnifex, which would also need to be taken as separate units.

Gotcha, thanks must have missed that. Editing original post to reflect: Swarmlord in Tyrannocyte, 15 Stealers with Trygon and 30 Devourer Gaunts with Trygon Prime.

I think all three troops have incredible value right now. A unit of 20 Stealers with a Broodlord statistically killed a Knight in one turn, and remove essentially anything in the game. Terrific and a value rich use of 380pts if you go for the IMO excellently synergized Toxin Sacs.

Hormagaunts are a terrific cheap screen, and maneuvering/tie-up unit. At base price they don't need to do almost anything to pay themselves back.

Termies are awesome area denial, and with a Tervigon are a frustrating screen to move through. Also, once again, DIRT cheap.

Hell, outside of Gargoyles, I think almost everything in 8th edition is fun/viable for 'Nids. I think they're not even terrible... just redundant.

So, personal question to the Dakka 'Nid fans... Has anyone found any good third-party/proxy models for Pyrovores and Biovores. I own a few of each, and absolutely loath the modes aesthetically. I'd love to run literally anything in their place.

Malanthrope's datasheet:

The guy got expensive (around 200 points) but its aura affects everything and it is a character now. And the possibility for an army wide preferred enemy is cool.

He is an HQ, that is nice.

200points? No chance I'd be using them

He's not super impressive all on his own but all the cost comes in his bonus buffs. The ability to shield any TMC will be his big use plus the army wide reroll on hit rolls will be great once you get him into melee. I can picture the deployment being him, OOE, and a small herd of melee fexes just all bubbled around each other and marching up to get that first reroll kill. A sacrificial bubble wrap unit provides the buff just the same as any other unit will. Mala-Fex-Star?

He could also help get a Haruspex, or two, to the target or put him in a Tyranocyte and give any other deep strikers protection in case they don't make their charge.

At 200 points he has some power but will only fit if the army is built in such a way to benefit. He's not an always useful like a Swarmlord would be.

Oh s! I didn't notice that his Spore Cloud works on ANY tyranid model, rather than just infantry! That rocks!

Not just the spore works on any tyranid, Malanthropes are characters with less than 10 wounds. Unlike venomthropes they are not targetable.

wizerdree wrote:
He's not super impressive all on his own but all the cost comes in his bonus buffs. The ability to shield any TMC will be his big use plus the army wide reroll on hit rolls will be great once you get him into melee. I can picture the deployment being him, OOE, and a small herd of melee fexes just all bubbled around each other and marching up to get that first reroll kill. A sacrificial bubble wrap unit provides the buff just the same as any other unit will. Mala-Fex-Star?

In the above scenario, you'd be better off taking the 200pts you would spend on a Malanthrope and buying an additional 2 Carnifex instead. Malanthrope in general seems to be too costly for the utility it offers.

That's my consensus as well - too expensive for the buffs he brings. Pseudo preferred enemy is nice once you get it, as is the -1 to hit, but I'd rather just get that from a psyker. Heck, I think I'd rather bring a GSC Broodlord.

On the topic of genestealers, obviously any time you play power levels, the toxin sacs are a no-brainer. But what about in matched play? Do you think it's worth 4 points a stealer for that extra damage? I just feel like I never roll any 6's on the wound roll.

I think the character thing on the malanthrope is being underplayed a bit.

Consider,

-We have 1 other tyranid character with less than 10 wounds that provides synapse. The Prime.

-The Prime only area buffs warriors

-The Malanthrope doesn't just provide synapse but area buffs every tyranid model.

-If you can finish off a unit in melee with the malanthrope the entire army gets buffed for the rest of the game. Even if the Malanthrope dies.

-You COULD bring multiple Malanthropes for a single FOC slot (not that slots are in short supply) and then split them off to go their separate ways.



I am not saying the Malanthrope is the greatest thing in the world. But I think it's got some strengths on the table that could give it a place in lists.

 luke1705 wrote:
That's my consensus as well - too expensive for the buffs he brings. Pseudo preferred enemy is nice once you get it, as is the -1 to hit, but I'd rather just get that from a psyker. Heck, I think I'd rather bring a GSC Broodlord.

On the topic of genestealers, obviously any time you play power levels, the toxin sacs are a no-brainer. But what about in matched play? Do you think it's worth 4 points a stealer for that extra damage? I just feel like I never roll any 6's on the wound roll.

I haven't even considered NOT taking the Toxin Sacs on GS. It synergizes too naturally with them. Their volume of attacks, hitting on 2's with a Broodlord mean that even when fishing for 6's vs a T8 target, you will get a solid number. Those then trigger their super-rend already, so why not double down on making those 6's Knight killers?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
That's my consensus as well - too expensive for the buffs he brings. Pseudo preferred enemy is nice once you get it, as is the -1 to hit, but I'd rather just get that from a psyker. Heck, I think I'd rather bring a GSC Broodlord.

On the topic of genestealers, obviously any time you play power levels, the toxin sacs are a no-brainer. But what about in matched play? Do you think it's worth 4 points a stealer for that extra damage? I just feel like I never roll any 6's on the wound roll.

I haven't even considered NOT taking the Toxin Sacs on GS. It synergizes too naturally with them. Their volume of attacks, hitting on 2's with a Broodlord mean that even when fishing for 6's vs a T8 target, you will get a solid number. Those then trigger their super-rend already, so why not double down on making those 6's Knight killers?

Because often you won't be bringing a broodlord or facing a knight.

Without either, they are still extremely strong. A squad of 12 will rend their way through 1/2 (bit less) a tanks wounds, before armour saves on the non-rends. That's a small and very cheap squad!

More models?

But good point, it is worth consodering, as an upgrade or to treat a specific squad as an anti-tank option. Like a melta squad vs. a plasma one.

 Lance845 wrote:
I think the character thing on the malanthrope is being underplayed a bit.

Consider,

-We have 1 other tyranid character with less than 10 wounds that provides synapse. The Prime.

Broodlord too.

Personally, I think the Malanthrope is looking awesome. All of our buffing characters so far (except the swarmlord) only affect a single unit type.
OOE - Carnifexes
Broodlord - Genestealers
Red Terror - Raveners
Tervigon - Termagants
Tyranid Prime - Warriors

Now we have a character who can not only buff any unit in the army, but can hide behind units. That's not bad at all. The 5+ save is a bit weak, but the malanthrope has never been much of a combat unit anyway.


EDIT: Oh wait nevermind, they stuffed up its special rule. It affects MODELS within 3" of the malanthrope, which makes no sense given that shooting attacks target units rather than models. It's enough to mean it's going to need an FAQ though...

Going back to the Hormagaunt vs Genestealers discussion, I feel its important to note that hormagaunts have one important advantage over 'stealers (beyond point cost), and that's a 25mm base instead of a 32mm base. Because melee range is 1" to the enemy and 1" of friendly modes that are themselves within 1" of the enemy a 25mm base unit can get 4 'ranks' to swing if positioned properly. By offsetting each rank slightly to slide the bases into the slight gap between those in front of it you can get the second rank within 1" of an enemy that is contacting the first rank. Ranks 3 and 4 will be within 1" of the second rank allowing them to swing to.

Now in practice this doesn't work flawlessly but it does work well (speaking from AoS experience) and makes a surprisingly large difference in performance.

Genestealers are still sold on 25 mm bases on GW's website

All much Stealers are on 25mm bases cause that's how they're sold. Purestrain Stealers from DW:O were 32 but I'm not changing mine!

 luke1705 wrote:
I think genestealers probably take the cake for most improved unit in our codex. Getting a 5++, having the ability to have a perfectly reliable turn 1 drop, and roughly a 50% chance to make the charge with the CP re-roll. Running and charging...an extra 2" movement every turn...don't think anyone would have predicted all of that in their wildest dreams.

I think we can do turn 1 assault better than a lot of other armies. We can do threat overload and follow up with it extremely well. To the point where I think that will influence the meta to counter us

The swarmlord I think is the most improved unit. When's the last time anyone took a swarmlord? And he facilitates those turn 1 charges.

I think turn 1 stealer mass charges is a little overpowered honestly.

Yeah Malenthrope Shroud effecting Models not units is making me thinking I will be keeping mine on the shelf

I'm going to ask a somewhat controversial question...Is the Swarmlord actually worth taking?

In my list, I had the Swarmlord come down in a bare bones Tyrannocyte. That's 437 points. For the same cost, you could have THREE Hive Tyrants. And the only thing he really brings to the table is that Hive Commander rule.

Obviously, moving twice is insanely powerful, but is it actually worth the extra ~150 points over a regular Hive Tyrant? (I'm not saying he's bad - just want to spark some discussion)

Siphen wrote:
I'm going to ask a somewhat controversial question...Is the Swarmlord actually worth taking?

In my list, I had the Swarmlord come down in a bare bones Tyrannocyte. That's 437 points. For the same cost, you could have THREE Hive Tyrants. And the only thing he really brings to the table is that Hive Commander rule.

Obviously, moving twice is insanely powerful, but is it actually worth the extra ~150 points over a regular Hive Tyrant? (I'm not saying he's bad - just want to spark some discussion)

I only have two games under my belt, but I'm kind of pondering the same thing. Kinda thinking I'd rather just have another Trying to put another 20 Stealers anywhere they need to be on the board. There is something to be said for the reliability of the Swarmlord's double move though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just spit balling some stuff here, but what about this Stealer Blob overload list?

Swarmlord
Tyrant: Wings, Claws, 2x Deathspitter, Adrenal Glands

3x 20 Stealers
30 Termagants

2x Trygon Prime: Adrenal Glands
Exocrine

Swarmy double moves the stealers not coming in from reserve, the other two blobs and the Trygons pray they make their charges. Exocrine and Tyrant use their S7 to pome holes in screens


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively, Drop the Swarmlord for another Tyant as above and add more Gaunts.

The other issue I am thinking off with the Swarmlord... is that he is targetable and can go down relatively easily

I am anxious due to the re-write of the Malanthrope of what the DIMACHAERON will look like ...

It's my only other FW bug.

Siphen wrote:
I'm going to ask a somewhat controversial question...Is the Swarmlord actually worth taking?

Yes.

To expand on that, force multiplication is the most OP thing there is (other than perhaps genestealers). The reason why the malanthrope was so great was because it gave an effective 2+/3++ to any bug we put in cover. This was because almost anything that had ignores cover likely was not also AP 3.

With the Swarmlord, the importance of doubling the move characteristic (and doubling the advance move of genestealers or the target of a successful catalyst) would be difficult to overstate. You're getting to the enemy a turn sooner, literally. How do you protect our bugs from guns? Get them to combat. Sure, units can fall back, but if we get enough units there, it will nullify the shooting of much of the opponent's army. I fully expect to be using the swarmlord's ability on the dimachaeron turn 1 (assuming he isn't trash), himself turn 2, and whoever needs it turn 3.

The fact that he can be singled out is a real threat, which is why tyrant guard are so important. I would never leave home without 3, but I've never felt that they weren't worth their points. Getting the Swarmlord into CC unscathed is literally amazing. This will almost always happen, whether it's by the guard taking one for the team or them just deciding they have more pressing things to worry about and not shooting swarmy at all because of his retinue.

And just a quick aside on turn 1 charges - people are naysaying them because "people can castle/bubble wrap". Those people are not wrong. But you give up other things in order to do that (board control, the units you send to die). And regardless of how effective the initial charge is, the fact that we can have one makes literally all the difference in the world. The reason why we never took assault Carnifexes before was because they would always die before they got to combat. Pod in Old One Eye. Nearly 50% success rate with the CP re-roll for a T1 charge. Give OOE Swarmy's double move and catalyst. Hugely likely he makes combat T2, and an outside possibility he could make it turn 1 if your opponent doesn't respect his threat range.

^^which is the biggest reason why swarmy is such a big deal. Doubling the threat range of whatever unit you deem most important literally opens up doors, and it's very difficult for even a good opponent to see these things coming. I rolled a 5 with my genestealers on their advance, a 4 on their Swarmlord advance...that's a 25" move before the assault even happens. Totally caught my opponent off guard because they started the turn over 2 feet away and then moved an additional 8" on their charge plus 3" pile in. That's slightly above average roll, and they moved 36" in one turn! Insane! When any of your units can do that, the things it does to your threat range are incredible. In a heartbeat, I would take 2 swarmlords if I could. 3 might be a bit much but it wouldn't be awful


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and you know, he just happens to be synapse, Shadow in the warp, a ML3 psyker, and a giant CC beat stick. I mean, what else could we even ask for?