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yeah loota's seem to be allright. Just place them near a large unit of cheap stuff and they have LD 10++

SemperMortis wrote:


your numbers mean jack my friend since they dont relate to the game either. You keep pushing out 4.2s and other nonsensical number to make ork weapons look better. The FACT IS that ork weapons cost almost the exact same and do significantly less on average then their SM equivalents. I could do other comparisons if you would like they all equal the same thing.

Ork gun lines are dead and never have a chance now because of all these nerfs theyve taken.

Yes, they do relate to the game. They are an apples to apples comparison of the capabilities of each based on ballistic skill, cost, and effectiveness against all targets.

The weapons do not cost the same and/or do not have the same rules.

You can choose to ignore these things at your own peril. Can space marines out-shoot Orks? Absolutely. Orks aren't Tau.

If you want "Gun Line Orks" then you're taking Gretchin, Runt Herds, Deffkoptas, any of the Jets, Big/Mek Gunz, Killa Kanz, and Flash Gitz.

SemperMortis wrote:
I'll take that bet....especially since that is the same fething mentality people were preaching at the start of 6th and 7th.

perfect, lets agree to disagree for 3 weeks, and then hunt for videos to send each other that makes the case. Lets say two each, one from a competative one from a casual source?

I'm sure the Miniwargaming and frontline guys will have ork games up quick enough

whoo the annual orks are sucky video scavenger hunt is on : )

You have to admit though guys that Orks kind of have the short end of the stick no matter how you look at it... You keep saying it's fine because if you use this specific load out with specific guns, blah blah blah... when a SM army can do what the hell it wants with the armies the player already has and it will probably be okay. Some people don't want a green tide army of orks, I myself own only about 60 orks but a bunch of mech stuff like killa kans, deff dreads, bommers, ect... Although this can work, people with other armies must feel like crap spending all that time and effort into something that doesn't work very well while a SM can use any model he wants and at worse it will be mediocre with a 35% chance of winning. I myself own a DA army and love the fact I can basically do anything now and have that dream heavy support army I had stored away!

lolman1c wrote:You have to admit though guys that Orks kind of have the short end of the stick no matter how you look at it. [...] while a SM can use any model he wants and at worse it will be mediocre with a 35% chance of winning.

I dunno man, I love running mechanized MSU boys.

Orks now strike first when they charge.

Furious charge was moved to their str stat

They can mitigate leadership in bubbles.

shootas are free now.

Trukks exploding no longer take out a full half of my boys and send a quarter of them cowering in a crater.

My Nobz can't be challenge sniped out.

The mega cheesy stuff from other factions seems to have been given the boot (free units/transports, mega buffing formations).

My stuff can run and shoot and charge all in the same turn, and I don't even need to buy or build any new models

And I disagree about the space marines getting to use any model they want.... My space marine army saw a lot more love from GW than my ork army in the past, but the termiantors and honor guard squad I put together were rarely game winning models

 lolman1c wrote:
You have to admit though guys that Orks kind of have the short end of the stick no matter how you look at it... You keep saying it's fine because if you use this specific load out with specific guns, blah blah blah... when a SM army can do what the hell it wants with the armies the player already has and it will probably be okay. Some people don't want a green tide army of orks, I myself own only about 60 orks but a bunch of mech stuff like killa kans, deff dreads, bommers, ect... Although this can work, people with other armies must feel like crap spending all that time and effort into something that doesn't work very well while a SM can use any model he wants and at worse it will be mediocre with a 35% chance of winning. I myself own a DA army and love the fact I can basically do anything now and have that dream heavy support army I had stored away!

Eh, even during the periods when the Orks were good, they were never easy. Despite the silly, fun nature of the army, they've always consisted of fragile, specialized units that must be used in very specific ways, supporting each other on the table to do well. Which means changing and upgrading each edition as those roles change. I'm excited at the prospect of trying some new stuff out and purchasing some models that were just gak before (I think I might finally pick up a Gorkanaught!). Of course you always lose some effective models in an edition change. I bought and converted a bunch of Traktor Kannons to help deal with fliers in 7th. Now they're just strictly worse Kannons. On the other hand buggies/tracks look very tempting and I look forward to seeing them on the table again (hopefully with a new model!).

At the end of the day, I just don't think they can be any worse than they were at the end of 7th. There's no where to go but up!

I've seen both critical and people who are critical of the critical people and tbh, I'm on both sides playing as both SM and Orks... But a lot of what you say benefits orks also benefits other units (you fail a charge they can now charge you and strike first....). But on the other side, my Gretchen now hit things if I have 20 of them (so they're basically a living shield that shoots back) and I'm loving those bombs the flyers have! I feel, due to the way my army is set up, I will be okay but again, a lot of ork players are looking at their different set ups and are upset. It's unfair for GW to just make units (often expensive in real life) useless... It's like a guy coming around to my house and watering down all my paints for my art hobby. Imagine if you bought a stompa thinking it would get some use in 8th! I mean it was a risk for that guy but nobody could predict it would suck that bad! I mean that thing cost like £70 for GW! That's like a my monthly food shopping costs!

 lolman1c wrote:
I've seen both critical and people who are critical of the critical people and tbh, I'm on both sides playing as both SM and Orks... But a lot of what you say benefits orks also benefits other units (you fail a charge they can now charge you and strike first....). But on the other side, my Gretchen now hit things if I have 20 of them (so they're basically a living shield that shoots back) and I'm loving those bombs the flyers have! I feel, due to the way my army is set up, I will be okay but again, a lot of ork players are looking at their different set ups and are upset. It's unfair for GW to just make units (often expensive in real life) useless... It's like a guy coming around to my house and watering down all my paints for my art hobby. Imagine if you bought a stompa thinking it would get some use in 8th! I mean it was a risk for that guy but nobody could predict it would suck that bad! I mean that thing cost like £70 for GW! That's like a my monthly food shopping costs!

There is little I can find that doesn't seem useful in an Ork army. Some things like MANZ probably need to be teleported if you want to be effective. But, like was said earlier - i'm sure we'll see battle reports soon for those willing to roll up their sleeves.

Gitfindas or some equivalent would be nice as an upgrade for more shooty units. Hopefully that's in the codex whenever it shows up...

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Gitfindas or some equivalent would be nice as an upgrade for more shooty units. Hopefully that's in the codex whenever it shows up...

Yeah, but they're kind of built into the statline of Flash Gitz, and it might be too powerful to stick them on Lootas (depending on points cost). It would definitely be welcome on a Mek with a SAG, as right now it doesn't seem that powerful. If a Big Mek could take a SAG, Gitfinda and Ammo Runt that would be a good combo.

It's too early to tell. No one aside from the playtesters has enough experience to dictate anything factual regarding powerlevels.

It's obvious there will be a few builds that are just better than the rest for each army.

Also OP forgot vehicles are more durable, which helps Orks a lot.

And the rules in the Index books are just the pseudo blank ones anyway, to kick off 8th edition. More in codices to come.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.

Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.

I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.

I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem

Or maybe, just maybe one is supposed to look at the bigger picture when it comes to points costs and not just comparing similiar units point for point. A few similiar units and their comparison doesn't lead to any credible conclusion about how an army fares in the game, especially one with this many different factors to account for. No amount of counterarguments change this fact.

A trukk being inferior to a Rhino in a point to point comparison means nothing, unless you intend to play an army made out of Trukks against an army made out of Rhinos.

I'm going out on a limb here and saying Rhinos are worse point for point than trukks. I don't think you will be seeing many unless they are for big assaulty units. 5 man units are better in Razorbacks, and neither are great for shooty units. At least compared to now. We might see a change that makes them common, but they are super nerfed in utility compared to 7th.

So much for a balanced and playtested eddition... There are still lots of units that are badly pointed or useless, SAG ffs!

 jhnbrg wrote:
So much for a balanced and playtested eddition... There are still lots of units that are badly pointed or useless, SAG ffs!

As stated before, anyone who is expecting 600+ units to be fine on launch is being unrealistic.

It surprises me that someone is actually surprised. Basic Dr.Phil level logic dictates it simply won't be so.

 jhnbrg wrote:
So much for a balanced and playtested eddition... There are still lots of units that are badly pointed or useless, SAG ffs!

So much for people taking a proper look at the math and playing games before coming to a conclusion.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
So much for a balanced and playtested eddition... There are still lots of units that are badly pointed or useless, SAG ffs!

So much for people taking a proper look at the math and playing games before coming to a conclusion.

SAG was to expensive and finicky in 7th, so what did they do? they made it significantly worse but you no longer kill yourself with it. Who the hell is EVER going to take one? My SAG Mekz are going to go sit on a shelf for the next 2-3 years.

I understand people want to be positive and get excited but this is a fething repeat of 7th launch. Orks will be boned for another entire edition unless GW unfeths themselves and gives us some good updates.

SAGs are terminator killers, but only 1 per turn on avg, so it has to get 2 or 3 turns to get its points back. It can now hide behind the lobbas unit(s) and still see almost the whole board, but hard to target unless he's sniped.

Not a killer unit, but AP-5 is actually pretty good. Depends on your meta.

As far as orks in general, I do not think we are on the bottom anymore. Reece thinks were top 5, and he is no slouch. We may not be as good of a general as Reece, so we have work to do to get everything out of our army.

Personally I don't want to be the scatbikes of 8th. Mid tier or even bottom mid-tier is the sweet spot, IMHO. It gives us something to shoot for.

I'm not going to lie, I actually wish they'd make it so the SAG would blow up. I'm hoping they give the Orks a lot more flavor back in the next edition.

Maybe it shouldn't have as huge of a table as before. Maybe they could have the option to "supercharge" it like plasma guns. Something like, if you super charge the SAG you roll 2d6 attacks but have to check the following table on doubles:
1,1: Tellyported - the Big Mek is slain but the target suffers 1d6 mortal wounds.
6,6: Explosion - the SAG does not fire, the Big Mek is slain and each unit within 6" suffers d6 mortal wounds.
All other doubles: Backfire - the SAG does not fire and the Big Mek suffers d3 mortal wounds.

That might be too powerful for the current points, but something like that would be fun while being a little less clunky than the former SAG.

RIP TankHammers...

Expensive wargear for a single-use mortal wound attack? Sadface.

My initial reaction after getting my hands on the Xenos "Hold you over" book? This game will become a sea of wound counters.... Every dread, every Kan, every Trukk, every buggy.

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out when actually playing games.

Moral of the story: 8th ed. has me cleaning 5+ years of dust off the boyz. That's a win in my book.

I'm more optimistic about some level of success for my Orks than I have been since 5th edition. I think 8th offers quite a bit to help them out compared to 6th and 7th.

 Teek wrote:
RIP TankHammers...

Expensive wargear for a single-use mortal wound attack? Sadface.

My initial reaction after getting my hands on the Xenos "Hold you over" book? This game will become a sea of wound counters.... Every dread, every Kan, every Trukk, every buggy.

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out when actually playing games.

Moral of the story: 8th ed. has me cleaning 5+ years of dust off the boyz. That's a win in my book.

Considering tankbustas are 1 pt cheaper base then regular boy a 15pt d3 mortal wound isn't bad and the ONLY melee version of tankbustas outside of nob weapons.
I'll be running 2 squads on 5 tankbustas with a bomb squig in trukk. I'd likely keep one unit as all rokkits and one unit with 2x hammers and nob with Big choppa to act as an assault unit. I have no problem paying 15pts for d3 mortal wounds. I'll figure it out but I'll refinetly keep a few tankhammers for mortal wounds to deal with all the 3++ save armies and spam deffkoptas w bombs as well to deal with it.

Does the tankhammer replace the "default close combat weapon?" If the tankhammer bearer was in combat but didn't want to use his only (listed) melee weapon, could he make a normal attack like the other tankbustas?

More importantly does the bomb squig have tank-hunters so you can re-roll that 1 to hit?

2+ to hit stuff and 2++ to hit vehicles?

It appears to be the case

I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.

Most the basic rules seem to buff us but our unit entries seem a bit a lack-lustre for the most part. I went from excited to apprehensive upon seeing our index entries.

I prefer the modifier system overall (I was brought up on rogue trader and 2nd) but loosing 4+ cover in ruins will hurt us. We'll be unsure how much until we play a few games. The sky is certainly not falling but neither am I falling over with glee. Anyway I shake it I'm still glad 7th is nearly behind us (I play orks and Blood Angels).

Indeed ork army is the one heavily affected by the cover change. While on 3+ and 4+ armor armies are more or less the same, for us is a pain.

The change is basically like a nerf to the army since we will save waaaay less miniatures that others arms by comparison.
Also no more cover from others units also affects us more than most armies.

Those general changes affect directly to the orks and "should", be taken account. But they nerfed the doktor feel no pain and nerfed the kff since the full unit must be inside.

And the GW saying that we should be happy with orks because now boaters don't quit our armor so we are more durable..... Looks more like an insult to ork player hahaha. Or that he never played an ork xD

Also what the hell they did to orks blast weapons? Before they were our best and most point/effective weapons. Focusing on them we could do something shooting..... Now they are gak. A killkanon could kill one gaunt per turn!!!! Woooo, superpowerfull........

Also yup, now assault weapons can shoot even running with a - 1 (so hits with 6s). That could be fun for us. But now looks that you can assault even if you don't shoot assault weapons... So in general armies with no assault weapons are improved since can shoot weapons with a real BS... While us will fail nearly all the extra assault shoots.

Franarok wrote:
But they nerfed the doktor feel no pain

Heh, this is still too painful for me... I've blocked it out from my memory =)

Franarok wrote:
Also what the hell they did to orks blast weapons?

yeah this too is also a kick in the nads... they were never my main damage dealers but I would often try to capitalise on the fact that a lot of people tend to overestimate their effectiveness. (i.e. 60pts of KMKs on a ridge could easily adjust someone's entire deployment. I'd pop a SAG in the artillery too for a few lols) I'm not happy about this change but its less bothersome than the change to the painboy... oh god.. I reminded myself again...


Still I disliked 7th with a passion where the answer to things was to spam units. I own a diverse collection of orks about 4000pts, but I don't think I own enough of any one model to get the formation/detachment bonus's from the supplements. What a pile of gak this edition was.

I think 8th will be spammy for orks
I plan to initially. field 3x kommandos, 3x tankbustas, and 3x individual deffkoptas and a single unit of 15 stormboys Because that's the amount of models I currently have.. but I'd probably like to have another unit of each.

Franarok wrote:


and nerfed the kff since the full unit must be inside.

It hasn't been nerfed. Last time I checked, it had a 3''' range. Now it has 9''. You don't need to spread out your boyz due to lack of blasts so you can easily make 2 blocks of 20 boyz fit within the KFF's range without breaaking a sweat. It's buffed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Moolet wrote:

Franarok wrote:
But they nerfed the doktor feel no pain

Heh, this is still too painful for me... I've blocked it out from my memory =) .

Because you could take Feel No pain against destroyer weapons or 8+ strength ones, right?