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Yeah, imperial fists ignore cover. So they negate the new stratagem completely. Their castle is harder to assault now, too.

I actually think IF are pretty solid. It is just a trait I don't want to use because it leads to duller games. This game is not improved by the terrain mattering even less...

 godardc wrote:
Okay so I have a tournament coming, and only my SM are 100% wysiwyg.
However, I have no clue at all of what is bad and what is worse anymore, I haven't played them for months, and all I see when I try to make a new 1500pts list is a big amount of garbage...

I thought about 3 scouts squads, 1 biker scout squad, probably a thunderfire, its stratagem is golden against genestealers and quick foes, but then...

Unfortunately, I have several armored units, such as dreadnoughts, predators, rhinos, flyers...
All less than useful
I could play a full armoured list, totally not meta, maybe surprising my opponents, but SM vehicles simply aren't good, so it would really be all or nothing

I used to play vv, but they were never great and now they have been nerfed, I don't think I want them into my tournament list

How would you go to a tournament with SM, without primaris (I have none) ?

Right now I think the best way yo run mono marines is the same way reece did picking up the best unit's in the codex and trying to build a viable army based upon those units.
Bobby G, scouts, scout bikes, some more buffing HQ's and then thr required units to cover the weaknesses of the list as best as possible while not deviating too far from the defensive stats of scouts. Ie devistators etc.

 Crimson wrote:
I actually think IF are pretty solid. It is just a trait I don't want to use because it leads to duller games. This game is not improved by the terrain mattering even less...

Terrain is an if-come-maybe. Don't count it to balance anything.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I actually think IF are pretty solid. It is just a trait I don't want to use because it leads to duller games. This game is not improved by the terrain mattering even less...

Terrain is an if-come-maybe. Don't count it to balance anything.

It was not about balance it was about fun. I want the terrain to matter, with IF it matters less.

LoS blocks still work. Which are pretty common in ITC format.

Ignoring cover is pretty boss vs other 3+ armies.

What are you alpha striking with?

Aggressors get hit hard by enemy being able to get +1 to saves without any ap on their attacks.

There's nothing in the marine dex that wants to get into CQC with screens.

Can't get hellblasters into double tap range. Everything else in the dex "works" from 9" further back.
[rant]
I've been screaming that the marine dex would be trash tier once other dexes came out ever since I first saw the guard dex. It has come true. Gulliman can make the army work against some enemies but without any competent melee we have no answer for knights and thus are pretty much invalidated as an army.

Unless you run something like Reece's MW fishing army (sniper scouts, mw abusing devs, apothecary and ancient) and get lucky with fishing for those mortals (and your apothecary/ancient rolls) we are dead in the water. Dissie cannons, plasma, cawls wrath and the host of other ap 2d weapons has killed primaris dead.

We can't build to both deal with knights and hordes because our weapons are too inefficient and our units are not resilient enough.

Of course we can win some games when luck is on our side our by out-playing your opponent but against a general with like skill level and an optimized list that isn't marines we are at a major disadvantage. We have no plus matchups and don't have a phase where we are favored. Anything in our dex that does anything can be done better/cheaper by another imperial army.

Our only shtick is Gman and it is so easy to kill the troops he is buffing that you better hope you go first. The best units in our book are not even marines (scouts) or are FW (leviathan dread).

Tacs - trash
scouts - good. even better now that they are among the few that can deploy outside of your zone.
Dreads - trash (outside of leviathan and maybe relic conteptors)
Termies - trash
Cents - trash is too kind
flyers - not quite trash but space wolves and DA flyers are so much better and let's not even talk about eldar
Land raiders - trash
repulsors - mostly trash. No invlun and knight/anti-knight meta hurts these things badly. I guess if you run 2-3 of them with gman you can do well.
Rhinos - trash
drop pods - trash
razorbacks - not quite trash but really close
primaris - trash. Too much ap multi wound weapons out there.
characters - mostly trash
chapter tactics - raven guard/salies aren't trash, templars would be okay if we had anything that could do anything in CQC
bikers - trash
land speeders - trash
scout bikers - good (but fragile, short range and don't really synergize with anything else in the book)
strats - trash (mortal wound from devs is good, re-roll bubble for dreads would be okay if they weren't so bad, fight twice after death okay, templars denying on a 4+ is okay)
Lascannons - trash vs everything they need to shoot at. All the 3++s running around has pretty much invalidated them.
Melta - worse than trash. Like lascannons but less range and more cost.
Grav - trash. Range is too short, penalty for movement is too much, only d3 vs 3+ targets is too restrictive and they cost twice as much as a dissie cannon
Plasma - okay (which is why you see it all the time which double feths marines because it is so good at killing us)
bolters - trash. Can't kill hordes, can't kill elites, can't kill anything
Missile launchers - trash. str isn't high enough, flak doesn't shoot enough to be worth 25 fething points
Heavy bolters - meh
Storm bolters - great but can only put them on like 2 options
Hurricane bolters - great but limited options and better off putting them on banana bikes.

So after all that. Scouts, scout bikers, leve dreads, gman, maybe some flyers/repulsors, dev squads for MW with a sprinkling of characters. You can win with units outside of these, hell a smart player can win with nothing but tac marines but you will be at a disadvantage. You really get lost once you start comparing marine options to other imperial soup options.

[\rant]
With orcs around the corner our inability to deal with both armor and bodies will be on full display further relegating us to the dregs of the codex pile.

I didn't say it was a good alpha strike. They are just the best at it now.

Regarding assaulting Screens, double Chainsword Vanguard might still be the best at doing that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Regarding assaulting Screens, double Chainsword Vanguard might still be the best at doing that.

I think the question now though, is, do you even want to be assault screens with Raven Guard anymore?

You can use the stratagem to get turn 1 charges with JP units, but, all you're doing is charging those screens with zero backup turn 1. You also run the risk of not having first turn. If you cant vanguard into a good position then, you've essentially just wasted CP.

And I choosed my SM as my gaming army...How is infortunate is this...
What about the assassins ? Do you think they could prove somewhat useful for a competitive / tournament scene ?

 godardc wrote:
And I choosed my SM as my gaming army...How is infortunate is this...
What about the assassins ? Do you think they could prove somewhat useful for a competitive / tournament scene ?

Well they're one of those units with native Infiltrate, and the Callidus will have more power now due to how you can't generate more than 1 CP in a turn. Everyone has a good use besides the Vindicare, but you can still make an argument for him due to how some players overreact to a Sniper that isn't garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Regarding assaulting Screens, double Chainsword Vanguard might still be the best at doing that.

I think the question now though, is, do you even want to be assault screens with Raven Guard anymore?

You can use the stratagem to get turn 1 charges with JP units, but, all you're doing is charging those screens with zero backup turn 1. You also run the risk of not having first turn. If you cant vanguard into a good position then, you've essentially just wasted CP.

Well they can still tie up units so some won't shoot, and they'll do more damage than Assault Marines will for not much more. I think we can still argue for Vanguard as having a use, though how much they need to be used is the question.

I've been having a lot of success with SM recently.

My previous list was 14-3 against a variety of opponents (and two of my losses came down to smash captains not doing sufficient wounds to castellans and sheer bad luck. Like some 1/1024 chance of happening sort of luck)

My current list which contains a large segment of my previous list (dropped three predators and a squad of marines for a knight) is currently 3-0, with two games closer than I would've liked but the third being an absolute stomp.

With the new FAQ, I might go back to the previous list because entrenched positions make predators and rhinos way more survivable first turn.

Vilehydra wrote:
I've been having a lot of success with SM recently.

My previous list was 14-3 against a variety of opponents (and two of my losses came down to smash captains not doing sufficient wounds to castellans and sheer bad luck. Like some 1/1024 chance of happening sort of luck)

My current list which contains a large segment of my previous list (dropped three predators and a squad of marines for a knight) is currently 3-0, with two games closer than I would've liked but the third being an absolute stomp.

With the new FAQ, I might go back to the previous list because entrenched positions make predators and rhinos way more survivable first turn.

When you say SMs, from your post I’m presuming you mean Imperium Soup which includes Space Marines? (for example, you said you’re currently running Smash Captains and a Knight)

You running straight up Blood Angels with the preds and rhinos, or, is it just Smash Captains for BA and then other marines for the rest?

Could we have an example of your list ?
I don't know, so many things ignore cover now, and it is just one turn, they still are so weak after that

My previous list:


My current list -


A quick disclaimer, most of the games were ITC, which allows players to choose things like warlord traits/relics/psychic just as your choosing secondary objectives.

The warlord either gets the shield eternal, or the salamanders mantle. Shield eternal against knights or multi-damage weapons, mantle against massed fire armies. For his warlord trait he gets either +1 wound and a 6+ Fnp, Re-roll charges and +1 attack if charging, or +1 strength (salamander special, only really used this one for knights, and not even all the time) depending on what the situation requires. If I was boxed into choosing a single relic/trait it would be shield eternal and reroll charges.

The librarian will always be getting Armor indomitus, it makes him way more tanky. He always will have nullzone, and either VoT or MoH depending on how I play my termi-captain. If forced to choose blind, it would be MoH and Null Zone.

The knight is almost always getting Ion Bulwark, and depending on the match up either a paragon gauntlet, relic thermal cannon, 5+ inv in CC, or 2+ armor.

The salamander CT allows the meltaguns to be incredibly efficient at removing any big targets, especially ones that rely on invuln saves with NZ around.

Also never, ever forget the might krak grenade. The amount of characters/knights/vehicles that have been brought low by the mighty salamander krak grenade is absurd.

I'd bet a few people would be surprised this list works at all (I was at first), and I expect it to get better as CA comes along and melta/TC might get point drops.

Can you post an example of the kind of list you're playing against?

bananathug wrote:
What are you alpha striking with?

Aggressors get hit hard by enemy being able to get +1 to saves without any ap on their attacks.

There's nothing in the marine dex that wants to get into CQC with screens.

Can't get hellblasters into double tap range. Everything else in the dex "works" from 9" further back.
[rant]
I've been screaming that the marine dex would be trash tier once other dexes came out ever since I first saw the guard dex. It has come true. Gulliman can make the army work against some enemies but without any competent melee we have no answer for knights and thus are pretty much invalidated as an army.

Unless you run something like Reece's MW fishing army (sniper scouts, mw abusing devs, apothecary and ancient) and get lucky with fishing for those mortals (and your apothecary/ancient rolls) we are dead in the water. Dissie cannons, plasma, cawls wrath and the host of other ap 2d weapons has killed primaris dead.

We can't build to both deal with knights and hordes because our weapons are too inefficient and our units are not resilient enough.

Of course we can win some games when luck is on our side our by out-playing your opponent but against a general with like skill level and an optimized list that isn't marines we are at a major disadvantage. We have no plus matchups and don't have a phase where we are favored. Anything in our dex that does anything can be done better/cheaper by another imperial army.

Our only shtick is Gman and it is so easy to kill the troops he is buffing that you better hope you go first. The best units in our book are not even marines (scouts) or are FW (leviathan dread).

Tacs - trash
scouts - good. even better now that they are among the few that can deploy outside of your zone.
Dreads - trash (outside of leviathan and maybe relic conteptors)
Termies - trash
Cents - trash is too kind
flyers - not quite trash but space wolves and DA flyers are so much better and let's not even talk about eldar
Land raiders - trash
repulsors - mostly trash. No invlun and knight/anti-knight meta hurts these things badly. I guess if you run 2-3 of them with gman you can do well.
Rhinos - trash
drop pods - trash
razorbacks - not quite trash but really close
primaris - trash. Too much ap multi wound weapons out there.
characters - mostly trash
chapter tactics - raven guard/salies aren't trash, templars would be okay if we had anything that could do anything in CQC
bikers - trash
land speeders - trash
scout bikers - good (but fragile, short range and don't really synergize with anything else in the book)
strats - trash (mortal wound from devs is good, re-roll bubble for dreads would be okay if they weren't so bad, fight twice after death okay, templars denying on a 4+ is okay)
Lascannons - trash vs everything they need to shoot at. All the 3++s running around has pretty much invalidated them.
Melta - worse than trash. Like lascannons but less range and more cost.
Grav - trash. Range is too short, penalty for movement is too much, only d3 vs 3+ targets is too restrictive and they cost twice as much as a dissie cannon
Plasma - okay (which is why you see it all the time which double feths marines because it is so good at killing us)
bolters - trash. Can't kill hordes, can't kill elites, can't kill anything
Missile launchers - trash. str isn't high enough, flak doesn't shoot enough to be worth 25 fething points
Heavy bolters - meh
Storm bolters - great but can only put them on like 2 options
Hurricane bolters - great but limited options and better off putting them on banana bikes.

So after all that. Scouts, scout bikers, leve dreads, gman, maybe some flyers/repulsors, dev squads for MW with a sprinkling of characters. You can win with units outside of these, hell a smart player can win with nothing but tac marines but you will be at a disadvantage. You really get lost once you start comparing marine options to other imperial soup options.

[\rant]
With orcs around the corner our inability to deal with both armor and bodies will be on full display further relegating us to the dregs of the codex pile.

I concur with analysis. Whole book is trash. 20% drop for everything is what the codex needs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rely on null zone = fail tactica

 Xenomancers wrote:

I concur with analysis. Whole book is trash. 20% drop for everything is what the codex needs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rely on null zone = fail tactica

Not a huge fan of the hyperbole - but I hope it's more than just point changes. Tactics applying to all units for a start.

I am serious.

Guilliman ofc will need to be reworked but as pointed out the entire book is trash. 20% is about what it takes to make trash units competitive.

Possibly an odd question that may have come up.

I have this muse to paint up an SM vanilla dread. Not convinced I want an SM army - I've dodged it for 20 years - but if you did, what would be the optimal (regardless of how uncompetitive in practice) loadout? Do they ever get into combat - and if they do, is the dreadnought close combat weapon worth the sligthtly ludicrous points cost? I am leaning dual las+missile launcher, but I am happy to be told otherwise. (My vaguely competitive brain is trying to stop comparing this to say a ravager and laughing).

I also suspect mathematically the best chapter would be Raven Guard or maybe Salamanders but I am leaning Fists just for the colour scheme (yes you can argue this doesn't matter, but meh. I really hate Salamander Green).

 grouchoben wrote:
Can you post an example of the kind of list you're playing against?

I can try, most of the games were over a month old. In general the lists fought against-

Lots of knights, ranging from quadruple knights to IG/BA/Knight soup. I did lose one game against a 4 knight/lucky 32 list, but it came down to the fact that out of 12 total attacks TH attacks at str 10 with a captain did 2 total wounds (6 damage) against a castellan.

Ork boy horde with airforce

Imperial guard - basilisks spam, plasma vets, tauroxes, kurovs/GS and more.

GSC

Dark Angels - (bike spam + devs with shroud and azrael)

Eldar - (did not fight against Altaioc air shenaniganry unfortunately, but did fight Altaioc Aspect warrior spam)

Space marines - Gulliman line and some other non-comp lists. Funnily enough, lost to a BT list with a castellan because I rolled incredibly poorly. Full Pred team and ven dread did a total of 2 wounds to the castellan, and it didn't even have the Ion bulwark or RIS. Did an orbital strike (never, ever do OS, even if it seems super juicy) and hit 10 different units (2 hellblaster squads, 2 dev squads, 2 BT mixed squads, 2 Intercessors, and 2 characters) it did a total of 0 MWs. The dev squads had no ablative wounds, so any casualties inflicted would've been super important, same with possibly killing of HB's.

World eaters- Bloodletter bomb x 2, double butcher cannon leviathans, DP, berzerkers and cultists. (played the same guy twice, went 1-1. The second game came down to me not being able to do more than 4 damage to a leviathan between the ven dred and the full predator kill team over a couple of shooting rounds).

Deathguard - double DP, super plague spewer and decked out pred kill team. Opponent was kinda new.

Tyranids - 6(?) carnifexes, brood lord, genestealers, multiple hive tyrants, two hive guard, and a bunch of critters.

Those are what I can remember of the bat. Which leaves two match ups that I still need to test this list again, dark eldar and tau. I'll probably have a tough time against the dark eldar unless I can shut down ravagers right away. Hoping to play a tau list this weekend.


As a note, null zone greatly helps the melta put damage out but the army is by no means reliant on it. That's kind of the point of this list. Nothing is a lynchpin and everything has multiple uses that can be adapted to the situation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Possibly an odd question that may have come up.

I have this muse to paint up an SM vanilla dread. Not convinced I want an SM army - I've dodged it for 20 years - but if you did, what would be the optimal (regardless of how uncompetitive in practice) loadout? Do they ever get into combat - and if they do, is the dreadnought close combat weapon worth the sligthtly ludicrous points cost? I am leaning dual las+missile launcher, but I am happy to be told otherwise. (My vaguely competitive brain is trying to stop comparing this to say a ravager and laughing).

I also suspect mathematically the best chapter would be Raven Guard or maybe Salamanders but I am leaning Fists just for the colour scheme (yes you can argue this doesn't matter, but meh. I really hate Salamander Green).

I go Twin Las/Missile because its what I had, and it's done pretty well. This variant is great with Salamander CT's especially if your using him as a venerable dreadnought.
Dreadnoughts are way too slow to get into CC, don't worry about the melee weapon unless you want to use them as counter chargers to smash demon princes (and if that is the case, I'd recommend Ironclads, because T8 and flat 4 damage melee is kinda good)

Tyel wrote:
Possibly an odd question that may have come up.

I have this muse to paint up an SM vanilla dread. Not convinced I want an SM army - I've dodged it for 20 years - but if you did, what would be the optimal (regardless of how uncompetitive in practice) loadout? Do they ever get into combat - and if they do, is the dreadnought close combat weapon worth the sligthtly ludicrous points cost? I am leaning dual las+missile launcher, but I am happy to be told otherwise. (My vaguely competitive brain is trying to stop comparing this to say a ravager and laughing).

I also suspect mathematically the best chapter would be Raven Guard or maybe Salamanders but I am leaning Fists just for the colour scheme (yes you can argue this doesn't matter, but meh. I really hate Salamander Green).

If you absolutely want to use a Washing Machine Dread, you're gonna go either Rifleman or substitute it for an Ironclad.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am serious.

Guilliman ofc will need to be reworked but as pointed out the entire book is trash. 20% is about what it takes to make trash units competitive.

That's boring, though. Strats would still be trash. Librarius would still be trash. Warlord traits would still be trash. Most relics also. Chapter Tactics should apply to every unit, too - especially with the rumours of all the -1 to hit traits getting nerfed.

Jesus, my man, if you want a better codex don't just stop at points reductions. That's amateur hour gak.

Yeah a lot of the Relics suck. The fact that Space Wolves have maybe the best shooting relic in the game is pure frickin silliness.

I actually tried the Guilliman + 2 Repulsors (dakka)+ 3 Predators army I read I think here somewhere.
Against Knights. I went first and actually won.

Vilehydra wrote:
My previous list:

Spoiler:

++ Salamander Battalion 1 ++
- Terminator Captain with SS/TH - 141 - warlord
- Librarian with Jump pack, force stave, and armor indomitus - 120

- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101

- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74

++ Salamander Battalion 2 ++
- Captain with MCB and chainsword - 77
- LT with MCB and chainsword - 63

- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101

- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55

- Venerable dreadnought with ML and twin Lascannon - 165
- 5 man vanguard squad with jump packs and double chainswords - 90

- Predator with pred AC - 130
- Predator with pred AC - 130
- Predator with Twin Lascannon - 140

++ 1994 points 13 CP ++

My current list -

Spoiler:

++ Salamander Battalion 1 ++
- Terminator Captain with SS/TH - 141 - warlord
- Librarian with Jump pack, force stave, and armor indomitus - 120

- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106

- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74

++ Salamander Battalion 2 ++
- Captain combi-melta and TH - 114
- LT with combi-melta and TH - 100

- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101

- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55

- Venerable dreadnought with ML and twin Lascannon - 165
- 5 man vanguard squad with jump packs and double chainswords - 90

++ Super heavy Aux - House Taranis ++
- Knight Errant with Thermal Cannon, Gauntlet, and Melta gun - 413

++ 2000 points, 13 CP ++

A quick disclaimer, most of the games were ITC, which allows players to choose things like warlord traits/relics/psychic just as your choosing secondary objectives.

The warlord either gets the shield eternal, or the salamanders mantle. Shield eternal against knights or multi-damage weapons, mantle against massed fire armies. For his warlord trait he gets either +1 wound and a 6+ Fnp, Re-roll charges and +1 attack if charging, or +1 strength (salamander special, only really used this one for knights, and not even all the time) depending on what the situation requires. If I was boxed into choosing a single relic/trait it would be shield eternal and reroll charges.

The librarian will always be getting Armor indomitus, it makes him way more tanky. He always will have nullzone, and either VoT or MoH depending on how I play my termi-captain. If forced to choose blind, it would be MoH and Null Zone.

The knight is almost always getting Ion Bulwark, and depending on the match up either a paragon gauntlet, relic thermal cannon, 5+ inv in CC, or 2+ armor.

The salamander CT allows the meltaguns to be incredibly efficient at removing any big targets, especially ones that rely on invuln saves with NZ around.

Also never, ever forget the might krak grenade. The amount of characters/knights/vehicles that have been brought low by the mighty salamander krak grenade is absurd.

I'd bet a few people would be surprised this list works at all (I was at first), and I expect it to get better as CA comes along and melta/TC might get point drops.

I wasn't expecting this kind of lists, very interesting !
How are you using your vanguards ?

Honestly Melta Guns are bad even with rerolls. Plasma is going to save you a good amount of points too

godardc wrote:
I wasn't expecting this kind of lists, very interesting !
How are you using your vanguards ?

Vanguards are either used as DS chaff clearers or ablative wounds for the terminator captain. They will absolutely shred guardsmen squads (or bloodletters) if they can make that charge, however with the new FAQ change to fly it's going to be a bit more difficult for them to make effective charges. That being said, I'll still probably keep them to force opponents to dedicate something to deepstrike denial and for some flexibility.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Honestly Melta Guns are bad even with rerolls. Plasma is going to save you a good amount of points too

Yeah, meltas aren't in a good place right now points wise, but plasmas just wouldn't work for this type of list for a couple reasons.
- No guaranteed captain re-rolls. This works fine when using the Salamander CT in conjunction with two weapons that cant kill the users, but when putting out 4 shots a turn that could remove one of your guys (across 5 or 6 squads) then you should be having captain support. Leading to blobs, which leads to poor board control.
- If a plasma gunner does kill himself, the damage potential of the squad nearly halves itself. Whereas meltas can only be removed after the 3 ablative wounds go down first.
- -4 can be incredibly important in many scenarios, especially when you have the capability to shut down someones invuln.


This list began as a way to see if I could make tacs, rhinos, and meltas work. Frankly I'm still surprised it's worked as well as it has.
I'm guessing its only going to get better when CA comes out

You could use just assault marines, you would get lpretty much the same results, wouldn't you ?
Do you play aggressivly or do you castle and use your deep striking part to disturb ? I could run the same list as you if I had a third pred^^
Have you been able to use the kill shot with them ?
So many questions !