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 Crimson_ wrote:
Do we have the complete datasheets for Calgar, Honour Guard and their points?
He might be really good for my all Primaris army.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT0eDbjQTyc&feature=youtu.be

around the 2 minute mark he goes into details

Thanks alot!

NP. Models look cool, rules seem decent, price is not outrageous. If these don’t show up under the Christmas tree, I’ll be picking them up after the holidays. Can’t prime until spring anyway, no rush. But looking forward to adding them to my Ultras.

I mean he is now +1 move, +1 toughness, +1 wound , +1 attack for the same cost and same special rules.
He loses the ability to ride his Land Raider and to deep strike tough. I will pick him up asap.

New list:

Calgar in Heraclus 200
Primaris Lieutenant 74
Techmarine Servo Harness 59

Redemptor Dread Onslaughts SB 155
Redemptor Dread Onslaughts SB 155
Primaris Ancient 69

Intercessor 5x 85
Intercessor 5x 85
Intercessor 5x 85

Inceptor 3x ABs 135

Hellblaster 5x 165

Repulsor T-Las/Lastalon/Onslaught/Frag/Krak 309

Fire Raptor Twin Las/ Twin AC 420

That is 1996 - no Tigurius though.

Hey guys,

i am playing Ultramarines and planing to pick up one of the SM battleforce boxes (currently i own the dark imperium stuff, a redemptor dreadnought and a venerable dreadnought as well as a squad of scouts). Cant decide which one to go with though. The interdiction force has a repulsor which i quite like but also reivers which i dont have a use for. The supremacy force box has aggressors and hellblasters which i like but also a redemptor which i already have. Any opinions?

Remember that the supremacy force has three sets of IF upgrade sprues in it which are dead value if you don't need or sell them.
Both the repulsor and the redemptor will get a good point reduction in CA2018. The repulsor can have Lascannons and Lastalon which is good for AT and reduce your drops if needed.

 ultimentra wrote:
After all is said and done after chapter approved it still feels like were bottom tier. Guard, nids, and mechanicus all definitely moved up from higher mid tier to compete with dark eldar and eldar at the top.

Yeah, we haven't had huge prices drop. 20 pts on characters won't change anything. Land Raiders and terminators got the best I guess ?

 godardc wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
After all is said and done after chapter approved it still feels like were bottom tier. Guard, nids, and mechanicus all definitely moved up from higher mid tier to compete with dark eldar and eldar at the top.

Yeah, we haven't had huge prices drop. 20 pts on characters won't change anything. Land Raiders and terminators got the best I guess ?

My (admittedly pure Primaris) 2000 points army became 1850 after giving my Repulsor twin lascannons instead of HBs. How is that not a big drop? Did other armies get better drops?
I can almost get a Faithful 32 with the savings to power Indomitus Crusaders with CPs.

Grey knights got the biggest drops but they still seems pretty miffed. They literally got about 25-28% across the board.

 DanielFM wrote:

 godardc wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
After all is said and done after chapter approved it still feels like were bottom tier. Guard, nids, and mechanicus all definitely moved up from higher mid tier to compete with dark eldar and eldar at the top.

Yeah, we haven't had huge prices drop. 20 pts on characters won't change anything. Land Raiders and terminators got the best I guess ?

My (admittedly pure Primaris) 2000 points army became 1850 after giving my Repulsor twin lascannons instead of HBs. How is that not a big drop? Did other armies get better drops?
I can almost get a Faithful 32 with the savings to power Indomitus Crusaders with CPs.

Wow, my bad I didn't realize it was that much. Thanks for the info, mate

The list i posted above would be at 2182 points pre CA. Thats 186 points saved.

Well, with the updated datasheet for Intercessors, if anyone is looking for a good place to get a sheathed Chainsword for your Sergeants, take a look at the Mk III Marines kit. There are tons of sheathed Chainswords on there. Get that free attack! As for Power Fists, I imagine taking one of the pointing arms cutting it off at the wrist and attaching a Power Fist should suffice. I am going to compare the size of the Power Fists once my Supremacy Force comes Monday.

I am really liking the Crimson Fists Liberator Strike Force. It makes me want to combine my two squads of Hellblasters into one murderous bubble of Doom. People can try shooting at them. I will have them in cover. And they WILL shoot back. I am also looking at making a Primaris Apothecary a Field Commander with the Expert Instructor Warlord Trait.

I need to tabulate my points. I believe I am at about 100 pts saved.

My semi casual list:



In total, it looks like I dropped 102 points. 101 when I switch the Techmarine to have a full harness.

Enough for an Ancient, then... dunno. Will have to take a look and do some math, but ideally something that fits in.

Have you thought about giving the Tactical Squads Missile Launchers instead of Lascannons? That way you can access the Flakk Missile Stratagem and have an easier time with hordes due to the Frag Missile.

They are 20 points now, and I haven't gotten around to building them yet. I think I even bought some of the from-the-hip ones, just because they are so silly they are awesome.

Between the Devastators and the C-Mortis I do have enough Lascannon shots to make a Knight sweat a little bit. The 15 points would give me some more room to try to look at squeezing an apothecary in (maybe dropping the Hunter Killers from the Leviathan)

do you guys plan on using land raiders and terminators now that they got cheaper? and if yes what combinations?

Looking at the points drops in CA I think there are substantial drops ahead for Primaris.

There's really no place on the table for hellblasters or aggressors with the new prices of vets with stormbolters and devs with plasma cannons.

2x vets with stormbolters and storm shields will run, what 36 points? 8 shots, 3++, 2 wounds vs 6+d6 t5 3+ for 35?

Same with the new plasma dev costs. d3 shots @ 36 vs 1 @ 30" for less points. The difference went from devs costing 4 more to devs costing 4 less. A squad of 5 put out on avg 2x the shots for 20 points less. Hell you could even throw in a couple extra bodies and get 3 ablative wounds for close to the same cost and still have double the fire-power.

This could just be a fair a mount of salt from a guy who just spent the last month painting 20 hellblasters which are now going to have to sit on the shelf while I paint 15 plasma devs but I can't see any world where hellblasters/aggressors compete in an optimized list (especially with all the 2d weapons out there that already made it a tough world for primaris) vs the old marines with their cheaper new toys unless GW is planning substantial price drops or crazy new strats.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Grey knights got the biggest drops but they still seems pretty miffed. They literally got about 25-28% across the board.

Without strikes coming down the army sucks basically.

bananathug wrote:
Looking at the points drops in CA I think there are substantial drops ahead for Primaris.

There's really no place on the table for hellblasters or aggressors with the new prices of vets with stormbolters and devs with plasma cannons.

2x vets with stormbolters and storm shields will run, what 36 points? 8 shots, 3++, 2 wounds vs 6+d6 t5 3+ for 35?

Same with the new plasma dev costs. d3 shots @ 36 vs 1 @ 30" for less points. The difference went from devs costing 4 more to devs costing 4 less. A squad of 5 put out on avg 2x the shots for 20 points less. Hell you could even throw in a couple extra bodies and get 3 ablative wounds for close to the same cost and still have double the fire-power.

This could just be a fair a mount of salt from a guy who just spent the last month painting 20 hellblasters which are now going to have to sit on the shelf while I paint 15 plasma devs but I can't see any world where hellblasters/aggressors compete in an optimized list (especially with all the 2d weapons out there that already made it a tough world for primaris) vs the old marines with their cheaper new toys unless GW is planning substantial price drops or crazy new strats.

That's extremely oversimplified. The vets get 8 shots at 12", 4 up to 24". The Aggressor get 6+1d6 (more shots on average) up to 18"(+run), and double the shots in a turn in which it didn't move. Veterans only have the 3++ going for them. And against some weapons that's not even better than T5 3+.

Hellblasters? They can move and hit on 3+. They can get within 15" and shoot twice. You are paying for mobility. Previously, it was Plasma Devs which didn't have a place.

Vets have the 3++, ability to ride in transports that aren't point pinatas, are not as point efficient to kill vs. the in meta guns. Against most weapons that kill marines it is much better than T5 3+.

Hellblasters only get w/in 15" in numbers that count if your enemy lets them (unless you are DW or SW). Either way is your point that 2 shots from 36" is the same as 2 shots from 15"?

Paying twice as much per shot for mobility must not be part of the costing equation for eldar/knights/armigers/custodes... Over priced for sure.

In my experience, single wound marines are just as tough as 2 wound primaris vs most guns that scare marines. My last couple tournaments I've faced nothing but DE, eldar soup, tau and knights. Against those lists hellblasters/aggressors are not viable. Those lists just happen to be the in meta lists.

The alpha strike ability of 36" plasma > mobility of hellblasters IMHO (that 6" move isn't helping vs the 12-18" of actual mobile troops). Then throw in the similar defense vs in meta weapons and I don't see a world where hellblasters compete at their current cost vs plasma devs. Overheating plas killing the bearer is another thing devs got going for them (no idea why the orc rule wasn't ported over but whatever).

Getting w/in 15" of an enemies army with a unit that doesn't want to be in melee is also a deathwish. Overwatch on aggressors sounds scary but with so many units that can turn it off or just shrug it off (6 man squad gets 57ish shots in overwatch or 10 hits, 5 wounds, 4 dead orcs -> 6 dead aggressors).

I'm just not seeing the value in either unit after CA.

It's too bad sterns can take storm sheilds. Cause 5 man sterns with 2 storm sheilds 2 plasma cannons and 3 storm bolters would be pretty nice. Maybe even a power fist on that Sargent. Nope - only DW gets to have storm sheilds and good shooting.

 Crimson_ wrote:
Do we have the complete datasheets for Calgar, Honour Guard and their points?
He might be really good for my all Primaris army.

If you look on youtube for some review of the VIgilus book you can find them, I think they are good for their point value but my personal problem with primaris stands. How can you deliver them to where you want them? The lack of transport/delivery option is crippling for assault oriented unit. Calgar hits like a truck tho

xross93x wrote:

 Crimson_ wrote:
Do we have the complete datasheets for Calgar, Honour Guard and their points?
He might be really good for my all Primaris army.

If you look on youtube for some review of the VIgilus book you can find them, I think they are good for their point value but my personal problem with primaris stands. How can you deliver them to where you want them? The lack of transport/delivery option is crippling for assault oriented unit. Calgar hits like a truck tho

I think Calgar, should be a center piece of shooty marines. Providing buff while dealing with the commonly seen big nasty monsters that normal marine boys have problem in melee, such as the Daemon Princes, Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.

As for transport of Primaris, I am glad to see the points drop of Repulsor, although the drop magnitude may not be enough, it is a good sign after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanielFM wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Looking at the points drops in CA I think there are substantial drops ahead for Primaris.

There's really no place on the table for hellblasters or aggressors with the new prices of vets with stormbolters and devs with plasma cannons.

2x vets with stormbolters and storm shields will run, what 36 points? 8 shots, 3++, 2 wounds vs 6+d6 t5 3+ for 35?

Same with the new plasma dev costs. d3 shots @ 36 vs 1 @ 30" for less points. The difference went from devs costing 4 more to devs costing 4 less. A squad of 5 put out on avg 2x the shots for 20 points less. Hell you could even throw in a couple extra bodies and get 3 ablative wounds for close to the same cost and still have double the fire-power.

This could just be a fair a mount of salt from a guy who just spent the last month painting 20 hellblasters which are now going to have to sit on the shelf while I paint 15 plasma devs but I can't see any world where hellblasters/aggressors compete in an optimized list (especially with all the 2d weapons out there that already made it a tough world for primaris) vs the old marines with their cheaper new toys unless GW is planning substantial price drops or crazy new strats.

That's extremely oversimplified. The vets get 8 shots at 12", 4 up to 24". The Aggressor get 6+1d6 (more shots on average) up to 18"(+run), and double the shots in a turn in which it didn't move. Veterans only have the 3++ going for them. And against some weapons that's not even better than T5 3+.

Hellblasters? They can move and hit on 3+. They can get within 15" and shoot twice. You are paying for mobility. Previously, it was Plasma Devs which didn't have a place.

Guys, I honestly suggest take a look at Veteran on Bike w Stormshield and Storm Bolter.

For the cost of 1pts over an Aggressor, and on average 1.5 less shots, Vets on bikes gain an average 2" more threat range of their double tap guns, same T5, armor save 3+, but are at least 50% more tough against AP-anything. And will be more than twice as durable against Disintergrator Cannons / plasma, and the like. The only defficiency Vets on Bikes have compare to aggressor is much less threathening in overwatch.

I am looking at running a full squad of Hellblasters backed by Pedro Kantor and an Apothecary now. Dropping Heroes of Rynn's World and having less fear from Overcharging is pretty great. The Apothecary could just resurrect anyone that has died. Another option would be to stick the Expert Instructor Warlord Trait on a Lieutenant and have him go with them instead of Pedro Kantor. Now, the question is, do I give that Lieutenant a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle, MS Auto Bolt Rifle, or a Power Sword.

It is too bad Expert Instructor Warlord Trait doesn't work on non-Liberator Strike Force units, otherwise I would stick that Lieutenant with a squad of Lascannon Devastators and give him a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle.

I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.

And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.

 Crimson wrote:
I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.

And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.

Good Point with Pedro and the rerolls of 2s. In which case a Lieutenant rocking the Expert Instructor trait should be good. And I prefer the Sword LT, so this is good.

 Crimson wrote:
I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.

And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.

Ain't it amazing that Chapter Masters make the Plasma dudes hit more but somehow make themselves explode more?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.

And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.

Ain't it amazing that Chapter Masters make the Plasma dudes hit more but somehow make themselves explode more?

Yeah, definitely becomes "no guts no glory". Honestly, with Heroes of Rynn's World will shore up the misses on 2s. Lots of plasma death incoming.

I always thought when it said "you can reroll any" it meant you didn't have to, just that you could, and you could choose which because it didn't specifically say all, just any.

Could go in YMDC, but I always chose not to reroll the 2s using that logic.

Lemondish wrote:
I always thought when it said "you can reroll any" it meant you didn't have to, just that you could, and you could choose which because it didn't specifically say all, just any.

Could go in YMDC, but I always chose not to reroll the 2s using that logic.

You absolutely have the option. It is not a requirement. But if I am not rerolling the 2s, what benefit does Pedro Kantor serve instead of a Primaris Apothecary or Primaris Lieutenant with Expert Instructor?