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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
As long as they can be THAT easily stopped from moving forward and/or shooting, they'll never be worth it. Heck, they would've been below mediocre at the codex price if they had a Steel Behemoth equivalent.

Well, Land Raiders need an invulnerable save and higher toughness, these things are supposed to be on par with baneblades. Yet they explode more often in my games than anything. (also doesn't help they are a gun magnet)

I love land raiders but I don't see myself running them due to how easy it is to pop em.

They're already packing a 2+ save. For once I don't think durability is the issue but rather the fact they're stopped by even a mere Guardsman charging it.

So like the rule that fellblades and falchions have (which are still far too expensive and why they are listed as relics i'll have no idea). Which allows them to shoot out of combat. Makes sense. They are literal god machines.

Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.

You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.

You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.

Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.

You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.

Uhh... care to expand on this?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.

You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.

Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?

The Plasma Cannon is 15 points, right? So look at it as 3 Plasma Cannons vs 2 Assault Cannons. So you're either at:
1. 12 S6 AP-1 shots
2. 3D3 S8 AP-3 D2 shots

They're clearly optimized vs different topics.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.

You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.

Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?

The Plasma Cannon is 15 points, right? So look at it as 3 Plasma Cannons vs 2 Assault Cannons. So you're either at:
1. 12 S6 AP-1 shots
2. 3D3 S8 AP-3 D2 shots

They're clearly optimized vs different topics.

Exalted, but I think you mean different targets

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.

Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.

You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.

Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?

The Plasma Cannon is 15 points, right? So look at it as 3 Plasma Cannons vs 2 Assault Cannons. So you're either at:
1. 12 S6 AP-1 shots
2. 3D3 S8 AP-3 D2 shots

They're clearly optimized vs different topics.

And yet despite their different targets, assault cannons are better at killing mini marines than cultists point for point, and plasma only becomes marginally more efficient at killing marines when overcharged; yet a plasma weapon easily makes its points back when it begins to target Primaris and other 2 wound infantry...that cost more points. If anything plasma should pay for its two profiles and Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-most no-brainer status while things like assault cannons need to be cheaper because they have consequences for moving, unlike some plasma varieties, and need to close the gap, unlike the plasma cannon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
As long as they can be THAT easily stopped from moving forward and/or shooting, they'll never be worth it. Heck, they would've been below mediocre at the codex price if they had a Steel Behemoth equivalent.

Well, Land Raiders need an invulnerable save and higher toughness, these things are supposed to be on par with baneblades. Yet they explode more often in my games than anything. (also doesn't help they are a gun magnet)

I love land raiders but I don't see myself running them due to how easy it is to pop em.

They're already packing a 2+ save. For once I don't think durability is the issue but rather the fact they're stopped by even a mere Guardsman charging it.

Yeah, anything with a 2+ doesn't need an invuln unless it's facing something scarier than a lascannon. Land Raiders don't have the rules to make their schtick work but their stats are fine.

So, does Slamguinius have some competition from a Black Templars Captain (Sigismash?) now?

In a Sword Brethren detachment with the warlord trait, a BT Captain has 6 attacks, 7 if you pop the extra attack and reroll wounds stratagem. You don't get 3D6 charge range or Death Visions/Black Rage, but you get the extra wound due and toughness due to being on a bike rather than using a Jump Pack. You don't get no Overwatch, but you get the Shield Eternal, making you ridiculously tanky. You also have the option of popping the 5+++ stratagem, which is better than Slamguinius's equivalent. +1 to wound is worse than rerolling failed wounds against everything except things with T16 or higher (is there even anything that high?).

Thoughts?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, does Slamguinius have some competition from a Black Templars Captain (Sigismash?) now?

In a Sword Brethren detachment with the warlord trait, a BT Captain has 6 attacks, 7 if you pop the extra attack and reroll wounds stratagem. You don't get 3D6 charge range or Death Visions/Black Rage, but you get the extra wound due and toughness due to being on a bike rather than using a Jump Pack. You don't get no Overwatch, but you get the Shield Eternal, making you ridiculously tanky. You also have the option of popping the 5+++ stratagem, which is better than Slamguinius's equivalent. +1 to wound is worse than rerolling failed wounds against everything except things with T16 or higher (is there even anything that high?).

Thoughts?

He still runs into the problem of getting to the targets that he wants to smash. What was huge for the slamguinius is that he could 3d6 charge, re-roll it, and fly over screens on top of having a small base so it was very easy for him to get into position. The other equivalents just don't have that ability at all and the ability the blood angel had has been heavily nerfed with the loss of fly working in the charge phase. The BT captain on bike is a beast for sure, but against the prime targets he wants to go for (a knight) he is just going to get bogged down by trash and fodder.

Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.

Thunderfire Cannons are maybe one of our better options vs screening units. My primary issue is that they don't use the BS2+ of the Techmarine, but oh well.

How much were Servo Arms again?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.

Thunderfire Cannons are maybe one of our better options vs screening units. My primary issue is that they don't use the BS2+ of the Techmarine, but oh well.

How much were Servo Arms again?

13 points I believe and the techmarine gunner has a servo harness so he went down 26 points. 93 points for the thunderfire now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.

Thunderfire Cannons are maybe one of our better options vs screening units. My primary issue is that they don't use the BS2+ of the Techmarine, but oh well.

How much were Servo Arms again?

Used to be 12. The gunner had to pay 24 extra points for just standing there. Thunderfire is now 90ish, as is the Vengeance Whirlwind. Not sure which one I like better atm. Whirlwind is kind of an indirect Autocannons set up. Both are tempting.

The Hunter, as disappointing as the gun is, is now 80 points for 11 T8 wounds. That's kind of amusing.

Is there a unit tier list in this thread?
Is so which page?
Same for leviathan dread analysis.

Also, are leviathan still good?
Basically i'll be the first and only marines player in our group in like... 8 years, thanks to the supremacy box.

Opponents are exclusively Aeldari (all sorts), tau, tyranids, knights, some tzeetch, and 1 necron guy.
we certainly have no guard or SM.

Klone12 wrote:
Is there a unit tier list in this thread?
Is so which page?
Same for leviathan dread analysis.

Also, are leviathan still good?
Basically i'll be the first and only marines player in our group in like... 8 years, thanks to the supremacy box.

Opponents are exclusively Aeldari (all sorts), tau, tyranids, knights, some tzeetch, and 1 necron guy.
we certainly have no guard or SM.

no unit tiers will be relevant except in the last few weeks thanks to CA.

Tacticals and assault marines are at the very bottom. Never take.

Scouts at the very top, always take.


But for actual serious damage I don't know. There's nothing that combines overwhelming firepower and good survivability. Heck there's nothing with one or the other. There's no SM unit that does what bad moons lootas will or can survive what they do. There's nothing that compares to custodes jetbikes. Or a knight. Just... nothing. If you are playing in a meta where people are taking and spamming a whole lot of overpowered units with the proper support, there is nothing you can do with space marines to compete.

Sternguard definitely got considerably better. 16 points to the 13 of the Tactical, and you can either get double the attacks, or either double the Bolter shots or a longer range Bolter with better AP.

Klone12 wrote:
Is there a unit tier list in this thread?
Is so which page?
Same for leviathan dread analysis.

Also, are leviathan still good?
Basically i'll be the first and only marines player in our group in like... 8 years, thanks to the supremacy box.

Opponents are exclusively Aeldari (all sorts), tau, tyranids, knights, some tzeetch, and 1 necron guy.
we certainly have no guard or SM.

You married to codex marines? Because DW (aka codex storm shields) is available. Won't make much use of that Supremacy force, though.

Unless you have some leeway in your local meta and it isn't all cheese net lists.

stratigo wrote:
There's no SM unit that does what bad moons lootas will or can survive what they do. There's nothing that compares to custodes jetbikes. Or a knight. Just... nothing. If you are playing in a meta where people are taking and spamming a whole lot of overpowered units with the proper support, there is nothing you can do with space marines to compete.

So I'm familiar with Custodes Jetbikes and Castellans, but Bad Moons Lootas? I'm not aware of their stats, but I'd be surprised if we couldn't match them for damage output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sternguard definitely got considerably better. 16 points to the 13 of the Tactical, and you can either get double the attacks, or either double the Bolter shots or a longer range Bolter with better AP.

Makes me sad for Tacs, but it is what it is.

 Insectum7 wrote:

stratigo wrote:
There's no SM unit that does what bad moons lootas will or can survive what they do. There's nothing that compares to custodes jetbikes. Or a knight. Just... nothing. If you are playing in a meta where people are taking and spamming a whole lot of overpowered units with the proper support, there is nothing you can do with space marines to compete.

So I'm familiar with Custodes Jetbikes and Castellans, but Bad Moons Lootas? I'm not aware of their stats, but I'd be surprised if we couldn't match them for damage output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sternguard definitely got considerably better. 16 points to the 13 of the Tactical, and you can either get double the attacks, or either double the Bolter shots or a longer range Bolter with better AP.

Makes me sad for Tacs, but it is what it is.

Bad moon lootas are beneficiaries of a cascade of strategums that see them shooting roughly 50 autocannon shots that get extra shots on 5s and 6s and then shoots again. It is extremely efficient at killing everything lighter than a knight. Space marine units would dissolve.

^Wheather or not Space Marines would dissolve is beside the point. Im curious about specifics, how many shots, how many points, BS, S, AP, etc.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Wheather or not Space Marines would dissolve is beside the point. Im curious about specifics, how many shots, how many points, BS, S, AP, etc.

They fire Autocannon equivalents with D3 shots for the squad (which is a good use for the reroll Strategem), and with DDD the firepower is okay. Bad Moons reroll 1's to hit for range attacks.

How's the vigilus Astartes detachments?? Tempted to get vigilus defiant as it looks a good book but also for the detachments. I've got crimson fists and fancied giving them a run out with the new detachment.

The Siegebreaker might even be good if Centurions were good. They're each still near the cost of a Dread. The Ultramarine and Crimson Fists ones are usable. That's about it.

New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.

What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?

They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Wheather or not Space Marines would dissolve is beside the point. Im curious about specifics, how many shots, how many points, BS, S, AP, etc.

They fire Autocannon equivalents with D3 shots for the squad (which is a good use for the reroll Strategem), and with DDD the firepower is okay. Bad Moons reroll 1's to hit for range attacks.

An Ork firing an Autocannon seems like something Space Marines ought to be able to beat. Looking around a bit the danger seems to come from the fact that they come in giant squads.