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 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.

Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.

35 ppm for the Suppressors versus 59 for Plinceptors. Park em in the back and hose down the board.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
That Trait is interesting for Eliminators of the IF/CF variety.

Firing at a squishy target? Run those Mortis rounds for +2 to hit and add on the trait for another +1.

You're now triggering Bolter Drill on 3s. Maybe a decent number of shots?

Maybe if it was a really big squad of Eliminators. And even then maximum12 Str 4 AP -1 1D shots isn't going to make a ton of characters go running.

Yeah, extra shots on 3s is cool, but way too few base shots.

Sterling191 wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Autocannon dudes you can certainly make an argument for if you were a fan of Plasma Inceptors.

Not a fan, Heavy guns (autocannons no less which aren't great vs the other heavy weapons in the arsenal) on a mobile platform that will be hiting on 4s. With 6 shots. Depends on the points, but not a fan as it stands.

35 ppm for the Suppressors versus 59 for Plinceptors. Park em in the back and hose down the board.

If we're just parking them in the back, might as well bring devastators.

Hopefully these guys will get different wargear when they get a full kit. As they are now, completely counter intuitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That +1 to hit only affects one squad at a time as far as I know. That makes it a dud compared to Storm of Fire.

eh i'm not so sure. Hellblasters are already -4. What good is another AP? Hitting on 2s and being unable to blow yourself up is pretty epic for a big squad of guys.

Hey guys, can I have some advice?

I recently started a Raptors Primaris only force. They seemed fitting to me because of the tacticool style of the Primaris line. I discovered I have a metric fethton of anti infantry firepower but no anti vehicle firepower to speak of. Of course I am using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics.

So. What are my options? I already have a Repulsor but that doesn't cut it. That thing is too good at Horde killing to not let it do that.
I also will only include Units that fit the visual theme of the army.

- Hellblasters seem not too good at it because of d2 maximum and range issues.
- Redemptor. Meh. Not enough.
- Inceptors are fugly. I will never ever buy any of those.
- Predators are not fitting the visual theme
- Deredeo Dreads do fit the visual theme but I'm not sure if the autocannons/ 2 shots of lascannon will cut it
- Leviathan Dreads do not fit the visual theme
- Xiphon ... I'm not sure if I like the looks of it
- Stormtalon is fugly but I guess I could fix the visuals of that one. Question is - is it any good?
- Sicaran Venator does seem a little expensive points wise
- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer - has anyone fielded one of those? I kinda like the looks of it
- Astraeus .... I'm one of those guys who actually likes how it looks. 700+ points means that this thing is about half my army every game. I don't know if that thing gets me anywhere.

Any ideas? I need input

Morkphoiz wrote:
Hey guys, can I have some advice?

I recently started a Raptors Primaris only force. They seemed fitting to me because of the tacticool style of the Primaris line. I discovered I have a metric fethton of anti infantry firepower but no anti vehicle firepower to speak of. Of course I am using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics.

So. What are my options? I already have a Repulsor but that doesn't cut it. That thing is too good at Horde killing to not let it do that.
I also will only include Units that fit the visual theme of the army.

- Hellblasters seem not too good at it because of d2 maximum and range issues.
- Redemptor. Meh. Not enough.
- Inceptors are fugly. I will never ever buy any of those.
- Predators are not fitting the visual theme
- Deredeo Dreads do fit the visual theme but I'm not sure if the autocannons/ 2 shots of lascannon will cut it
- Leviathan Dreads do not fit the visual theme
- Xiphon ... I'm not sure if I like the looks of it
- Stormtalon is fugly but I guess I could fix the visuals of that one. Question is - is it any good?
- Sicaran Venator does seem a little expensive points wise
- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer - has anyone fielded one of those? I kinda like the looks of it
- Astraeus .... I'm one of those guys who actually likes how it looks. 700+ points means that this thing is about half my army every game. I don't know if that thing gets me anywhere.

Any ideas? I need input

What kind of vehicles / monsters are you going to beat?

If they are Leman Russ Battle Tanks, Chaos "normal" Daemon Engines, Nidz Carnifexes level MCs, or even a single Baneblade level tank, the list of units you have would do decent work.

If you are aiming at fighting an army of decked out IK, Magnus + Morty list. I suggest you give up. Nothing in SM army can kill enough of those thing before getting tabled.

My local meta likes to throw in the occasional super Heavy / Tank Company / Vehicle heavy list

I'm afraid my single repulsor with its las-ripper won't do much then. I have a lot of aggressors which can punch vehicles and the sheer volume of small arms fire I can throw down range does also chip away at vehicles but still my primaris are pretty limited when I have to face multiple Russes or something alike.

So what should I get? Here is a list of things I consider:

- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer (damn that's a mouthful) maybe even two of those

- Multiple Lascannon Tarantulas (3-4)

- Astraeus

- Sicaran Venator (although one might get shot off the board pretty quickly)

- 2 Deredeo Dreads

Morkphoiz wrote:
My local meta likes to throw in the occasional super Heavy / Tank Company / Vehicle heavy list

I'm afraid my single repulsor with its las-ripper won't do much then. I have a lot of aggressors which can punch vehicles and the sheer volume of small arms fire I can throw down range does also chip away at vehicles but still my primaris are pretty limited when I have to face multiple Russes or something alike.

So what should I get? Here is a list of things I consider:

- Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer (damn that's a mouthful) maybe even two of those

- Multiple Lascannon Tarantulas (3-4)

- Astraeus

- Sicaran Venator (although one might get shot off the board pretty quickly)

- 2 Deredeo Dreads

The other thing to conaider is the unit tax you have to pay to take relic units which can get punishing if your taking multiple relic units.

The laser destroyer has potential but it's weapons just feel underwhelming.

The Sicaran still compairs well to a predator, but are showing the lack of GW love when compaired to Leman Russ commanders, especially post CA.
Deredeo's I'm a big fan of, 2+BS with a +1 against fly, when stationary can really mess with eldar.

But fundamentally marines are limited to lascannons and paying 25 points for one shot has way to many points of failure, 8th edition favours quantity over quality.

I thought about the sicaran venator as well, but a lot of times a Venerable Contemptor with two twin lascannons comes out ahead. And he has a 5+ invulnerable save and 6+ fnp. I that fits your asthetics.

As far as proper ranged antitank goes marines only really have three options:

Lascannons - they are allround good at their job but expensive.

Melta - Damage is good but the range and str are both problems that when combined with their high cost make them a bad option.

Weird forgeworld weapons - Tanks destroyers, conversion beamers, massive guns on huge tanks ;-)


Of those the lascannon is generally the best with great Str, range, AP and damage, cost wise the Twin Lascannon is 20% cheaper than two single ones so looking for units that pack those is likely a good option. This generally leaves you with the predator (not so good) or dreadnoughts. A venerable with twin Las/Missile is pretty effective for its cost or if you have access to forgeworld a Contemptor Mortis with 2x Twin Lascannon is one of the more cost effective Anti-tank options in the game. Whether that fits your theme is up to you of course...

One last option is a smash captain or two, multiple thunder hammers to the face deals with lots of problems but vanilla marines don't do it as well as BA.

Ironically, one of our AA tanks is also pretty good at hunting Tanks.

The Hunter essentially has a Lascannon with re-roll to hit and +1 to hit against fliers (no penalty against non-fliers), mounted on a T8(!) chassi - all for the low sum of 80 points.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
That Trait is interesting for Eliminators of the IF/CF variety.

Firing at a squishy target? Run those Mortis rounds for +2 to hit and add on the trait for another +1.

You're now triggering Bolter Drill on 3s. Maybe a decent number of shots?

Maybe if it was a really big squad of Eliminators. And even then maximum12 Str 4 AP -1 1D shots isn't going to make a ton of characters go running.

Well they already ran, that's why you use the Mortis round.

Otherwise you'd use the better one.

How to take on heavy vehicles with Primaris? My answer is: you can't. You need allies to do it for you. Use your marines for what they're good at, which right now is killing hordes, an sub in other stuff to take out enemy heavies.

The obvious choice for the job is a House Raven Castellan. It wins shoot-outs with other vehicles. Their armour is irrelevant and it pours out damage, safe from return fire with its 3++.

Before Castellans existed I did fine against vehicle armies using a couple of repulsors and stuffing at least 10 hellblasters in them. They can still mess up most vehicles but a Castellan can out-range them, doesn't care about their -4ap and takes out the repulsors for fun. You can't beat them, so join them. Take your own castellan, or something a bit cheaper like a crusader.

It feels like a shame to sub in another army, but I don't think there are any single-codex armies currently doing all that well competitively. Tau and orks can just about hold their own but otherwise it's different flavours of Eldar, Chaos and Imperial soup that win events.

Mandragola wrote:
How to take on heavy vehicles with Primaris? My answer is: you can't. You need allies to do it for you. Use your marines for what they're good at, which right now is killing hordes, an sub in other stuff to take out enemy heavies.

The obvious choice for the job is a House Raven Castellan. It wins shoot-outs with other vehicles. Their armour is irrelevant and it pours out damage, safe from return fire with its 3++.

Before Castellans existed I did fine against vehicle armies using a couple of repulsors and stuffing at least 10 hellblasters in them. They can still mess up most vehicles but a Castellan can out-range them, doesn't care about their -4ap and takes out the repulsors for fun. You can't beat them, so join them. Take your own castellan, or something a bit cheaper like a crusader.

It feels like a shame to sub in another army, but I don't think there are any single-codex armies currently doing all that well competitively. Tau and orks can just about hold their own but otherwise it's different flavours of Eldar, Chaos and Imperial soup that win events.

Except at that point why take marines, guard do the chaff killing with more obsec and more CP's to feed that Castellen.

The reason I’m taking marines now is that they have a bit of staying power, very much unlike guardsmen. It requires some actual effort to remove intercessors from cover, and they are able to kill things.

Guard can certainly kill chaff, but are vulnerable to small arms fire in return. An army based around intercessors in cover (hopefully) and tough vehicles doesn’t really have anything that dies quickly to dakka.

Of course, a lot depends on the missions you’re being asked to achieve. A lot of formats now are using fixed objective placement, often quite centrally, which seriously counts against gunlines. The event I’m going to this weekend uses the CA18 missions, which give scoring every turn instead of at the end. So the plan is to take the objectives as early as I can and hold onto them for as long as possible. It’s just a shame that infiltrators aren’t out yet, as I’d definitely bring a squad if I could.

LOL Infantry are not susceptible to small arms. That's a myth being purported by their defenders. No other troop is more durable to small arms. Outside maybe Intercessors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL Infantry are not susceptible to small arms. That's a myth being purported by their defenders. No other troop is more durable to small arms. Outside maybe Intercessors.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that imperial guard infantry aren't vulnerable to being shot? I'll admit it takes quite a bit of shooting to get rid of them as they are so cheap, but I don't see how you can argue that they don't die when shot.

They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I prefer to look at the Supressors as a rapid redeploy unit. Set them up where they can do damage, then move them where they can be more useful.

It would be really nice if there were some stratagems to make use of that mobility. At the moment the only one I can think of is Blood Angel specific (on wings of fire)

Really plasma inceptors are a lot better. If I want to deepstrike with a shooting unit - it needs to annihilate something when it comes down. Plus now I can take a big unit and use the +1 to hit warlord trait on them and remove probably close to their point value on the drop without killing any of my own models. It is really just sad that I can't also cast the new powers on plasma inceptors - they would become a lynchpin in my new army design if they were. Unfortunately they are just an overpriced suicide unit ATM - Sadly - this is really one of the best units space marines actually have to offer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

momerathe wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I prefer to look at the Supressors as a rapid redeploy unit. Set them up where they can do damage, then move them where they can be more useful.

It would be really nice if there were some stratagems to make use of that mobility. At the moment the only one I can think of is Blood Angel specific (on wings of fire)

It would be nice isf space marines had any stratagems at all. They mostly have none. No defensive buffs outside of mortal wounds on vehicals. No offensive buffs that can't be duplicated by an aura. A bunch more trash that requires specific units of 3. Nothing to increase mobility. Nothing to allow units to come in from reserve.

Hey folks,

First post on Dakka Dakka. I'm looking for advices against, well, you know who, 3++ Castellans.

I play Salamanders and the core of my army revolves around Primaris marines and the loyal 32.I got a gak ton of Dakka but I clearly lack anti-Knight stuff. Here are tthe first 1660pts (which leaves me with 340pts to find an answer to Knights). I have 2 Battalions and 1 Spearhead detachment, so "plenty" of CPs.

- Smash Captain
- Librarian
- Lieutenant

- 2x10 Intercessors (Vigilus Veterans for the sweet rapid fire 2 stratagem) w/ a Power Fist on the Sergeant (that's optional but as a Salamander and the Vigilus Veteran thingy, he has 4 Attacks rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound. It surprises a lot of people. Randomely boost him with Might of Heroes and suddenly it's like having another Smash Captain. It DOES surprise opponents).

- 2x Redemptor Dreadnoughts w/ Macro Plasma Incinerator & Onslaught Gatling Cannon
- 1x Primaris Ancient

- 2x5 Hellblasters
- 5 Devastaror Marines w/ LC and HB.

- the usual loyal 32.
- Heavy Weapons team: 3x3 Mortars

That's a lot of bodies on the ground and as you can see, there's plenty to deal with horde armies.

Now my issue is obviously Knights. The only weapons I have that can deal with Knights are:
- 5 Devastators
- 10 Hellblasters
- 2x Redemptor Dreadnoughts
- 1 Smash Captain.

Now the Salamander tactics helps a lot, but that's not quite enough I have 340pts left (I can re-arrange things to make it ~400), and here are the options I have considered:
- 2x Tank Commanders
- More Devastator Squads: 3x5 w/ LC + HB or LC+ML
- 1x Xiphon Intercessor and another Dev Squad
- 2x Predators
- 1x Leviathan Dreadnought
- Some Assassins, I'm not sure if there's one that stands out against Knights though.
- More Hellblasters ?
- A Sicarian Venator ? (The one with the Neutron Cannon)
- Does the Adeptus Mechanicus offer anything relevant against Knights ?

aoutp wrote:
Hey folks,

First post on Dakka Dakka. I'm looking for advices against, well, you know who, 3++ Castellans.

I play Salamanders and the core of my army revolves around Primaris marines and the loyal 32.I got a gak ton of Dakka but I clearly lack anti-Knight stuff. Here are tthe first 1660pts (which leaves me with 340pts to find an answer to Knights). I have 2 Battalions and 1 Spearhead detachment, so "plenty" of CPs.

- Smash Captain
- Librarian
- Lieutenant

- 2x10 Intercessors (Vigilus Veterans for the sweet rapid fire 2 stratagem) w/ a Power Fist on the Sergeant (that's optional but as a Salamander and the Vigilus Veteran thingy, he has 4 Attacks rerolling 1 hit and 1 wound. It surprises a lot of people. Randomely boost him with Might of Heroes and suddenly it's like having another Smash Captain. It DOES surprise opponents).

- 2x Redemptor Dreadnoughts w/ Macro Plasma Incinerator & Onslaught Gatling Cannon
- 1x Primaris Ancient

- 2x5 Hellblasters
- 5 Devastaror Marines w/ LC and HB.

- the usual loyal 32.
- Heavy Weapons team: 3x3 Mortars

That's a lot of bodies on the ground and as you can see, there's plenty to deal with horde armies.

Now my issue is obviously Knights. The only weapons I have that can deal with Knights are:
- 5 Devastators
- 10 Hellblasters
- 2x Redemptor Dreadnoughts
- 1 Smash Captain.

Now the Salamander tactics helps a lot, but that's not quite enough I have 340pts left (I can re-arrange things to make it ~400), and here are the options I have considered:
- 2x Tank Commanders
- More Devastator Squads: 3x5 w/ LC + HB or LC+ML
- 1x Xiphon Intercessor and another Dev Squad
- 2x Predators
- 1x Leviathan Dreadnought
- Some Assassins, I'm not sure if there's one that stands out against Knights though.
- More Hellblasters ?
- A Sicarian Venator ? (The one with the Neutron Cannon)
- Does the Adeptus Mechanicus offer anything relevant against Knights ?

Accept that your redeptors are dead from the off, kill all the dang guardsmen that make that list function and then beat up the Castellen in CC as it has no invulnerable save in CC a 3+ Armour save and T8 are what smash captains are built for destroying.

Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.

You do remember the cost of Infantry when you're making these posts, right?

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.

That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.

Mandragola wrote:
How to take on heavy vehicles with Primaris? My answer is: you can't. You need allies to do it for you. Use your marines for what they're good at, which right now is killing hordes, an sub in other stuff to take out enemy heavies.

The obvious choice for the job is a House Raven Castellan. It wins shoot-outs with other vehicles. Their armour is irrelevant and it pours out damage, safe from return fire with its 3++.

Before Castellans existed I did fine against vehicle armies using a couple of repulsors and stuffing at least 10 hellblasters in them. They can still mess up most vehicles but a Castellan can out-range them, doesn't care about their -4ap and takes out the repulsors for fun. You can't beat them, so join them. Take your own castellan, or something a bit cheaper like a crusader.

It feels like a shame to sub in another army, but I don't think there are any single-codex armies currently doing all that well competitively. Tau and orks can just about hold their own but otherwise it's different flavours of Eldar, Chaos and Imperial soup that win events.

I want to build a coherent looking Army. No soup. Definatly no overpowered pos Like the castellan. I will not ever touch one of these broken abominations. They're not even good Models. They are literally the same size of Questoris class Knights with quadruple the guns. Just pathetic.

I bought a Xiphon and 3 Lascannon Tarantulas. Much more fitting for my Guys.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.

That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.

That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.

So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.

Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.

Lemondish wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.

That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.

That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.

So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.

Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.

It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They don't give up any points when killed; ergo, the most durable.

I see what you mean, ok. In that sense they certainly are durable.

In another sense though, they are dead and gone. You may not be able to get rid of all of them fast, but you can certainly get rid of quite a lot of them. Removing IG from somewhere important, like an objective, isn't that difficult.

So the result is that they may not lose points all that quickly, but they lose VPs and games. And that matters more.

That is easier said than done actually. Nowadays same points Space Marines die much much faster than guardsmen. You think guardsmen are weak? watch your 40 bolter/stormbolter shots near Guilliman bounce off from that 3+ save guardsmen squad.

That would statistically overkill the unit by 50%.

So if you're having trouble removing infantry squads with 40 bolt rifle shots then you have the worst possible luck.

Because even at 3+, they'll still die fast.

It happened more than once, 5 Storm Vet on bikes near Guilliman opened fire, IG pops "Grenadier" stratagem, then only 5-6 IG died.

Grenadier doesn’t improve their saves. I think you probably mean take cover.

Ultimately when you roll dice things can all go horribly wrong. That’s actually less likely when rolling tons of dice at guardsmen, but it still happens.

I find the -1 ap that intercessors bring is very valuable. It’s kind of obvious but models do tend to die a lot more consistently to them.

Guys, how good are Devastator right now ?

Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).

In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.

Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?

aoutp wrote:
Guys, how good are Devastator right now ?

Are they just too fragile (at the end of the day, the average dev squad only have 5 W and a 3+).

In terms of sheer damage output (against large targets), is there a more efficient unit in the codex ?
For 105 you got a LC and a HB that can pump 2d3 mortal wounds, and you got the reroll thingy from the Sarge.

Any reason we don't see 4 or 5 dev squad in every 2k comp ?

You cannot take 4-5 squads of Dev because of rule of three.

Of the 3 Devastator Squads you take, Castellan Knight and Crusader Kinght will swipe them easily as If they are worthless insects, If you go up against Knight army.