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Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.

Is it the end all / be all of tricks? No. But the fact that we can do it makes it a useful thing to know and pull out if the situation calls for it.

Azuza001 wrote:
Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.

Is it the end all / be all of tricks? No. But the fact that we can do it makes it a useful thing to know and pull out if the situation calls for it.

Hellblasters are more versatile then lascannon devs. Flat 2 damage and 2 shots can be leveraged against many more targets than a couple of lascannons. Also Hellblasters are -4 (for some god forsaken reason), which is important vs 3+ armor, or the 2+ armor relic that knights have.

footfoe wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?

Yeah reivers are straight up useless right now. Now they're more expensive than intercessors even without Grav-chutes, which just seems like an oversight to me.

Ice_can wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...

I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.

I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.

The temperal corridor is only legal on phobos units, the librarian in phobos doesn't have access to the normal psychic powers.
It's only the specific wording of the tomb that gives them access to both sets of powers.

Again to me that says the design intention is you can be using obfuscation and codex psychic powers together, just a shame as usual GW didn't actually check the codex they are futsing with for rules they forgot. Like is it really that difficult to read the codex of the faction that your creating units for?

Vilehydra wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.

Is it the end all / be all of tricks? No. But the fact that we can do it makes it a useful thing to know and pull out if the situation calls for it.

Hellblasters are more versatile then lascannon devs. Flat 2 damage and 2 shots can be leveraged against many more targets than a couple of lascannons. Also Hellblasters are -4 (for some god forsaken reason), which is important vs 3+ armor, or the 2+ armor relic that knights have.

Honestly, I think urzaplanewalker success maybe a lucky one. The luck is in 2 folds, one, He get both of his needed power off, given the WC are not low, getting both off is not easy. 2nd, I bet He might have go first in that game, because had He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.

I think the trick is good enough to justify putting him in a list. After all you don't have to buy him the relic. You can just spend the CP if you come up against knights or plaguebearers.

It may well get FAQd, but I'm not sure it will. I'm dimly aware of a similar ability with Chaos (not sure which faction) that I think you can still do.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.

Can't wipe what you can't see.

Lemondish wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.

Can't wipe what you can't see.

For the mobility of the IK, which moves 16 to 18 inches a turn and still able to shoot / charge normally, I don't think you can hide.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.

Can't wipe what you can't see.

For the mobility of the IK, which moves 16 to 18 inches a turn and still able to shoot / charge normally, I don't think you can hide.

It's not hiding or movement that's relevant it's using the deployment shenanigans and abusing the charictor targeting rules (they need fixed but that's on GW) makes you very tricky to kill.

This takes a high risk high reward play into more low risk high reward play.

Ice_can wrote:

footfoe wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:Been having a thought on Reivers specifically weapons. With the kind of 30k loadouts of some Primaris units I think GW missed a trick in not making Reivers the 40k equivalents of destroyers and Moriats. So with that in mind a good load out for Reivers would have been to have twin heavy bolt pistols with the same stats but then in melee allow them to have an extra attack at AP -1 to suggest they use the pistols in combat at close range.
Thoughts?

Yeah reivers are straight up useless right now. Now they're more expensive than intercessors even without Grav-chutes, which just seems like an oversight to me.

Ice_can wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
That is one nasty trick with the libby, i like it! Giving him access to the normal marine powers on top of the new ones is quite interesting...

I get the impression that this is a classic GW oversight and an unintended consequence of the wording of the relic and the relic to be FAQ'd to prevent this in future.

I doubt it. Unless i'm getting this wrong, it doesn't seem that strong to me. You can use the new spell to sprint the librarian up the field and lay down his Null zone right on top of your opponent's deployment zone. Problem, you have to cast a warp charge 6 spell followed by a wc 8 spell. If you fail the nullzone cast, you've thrown your librarian away for free. Then, you could have just put your Knight or whatever behind some guardsmen to prevent all of it.

The temperal corridor is only legal on phobos units, the librarian in phobos doesn't have access to the normal psychic powers.
It's only the specific wording of the tomb that gives them access to both sets of powers.

Again to me that says the design intention is you can be using obfuscation and codex psychic powers together, just a shame as usual GW didn't actually check the codex they are futsing with for rules they forgot. Like is it really that difficult to read the codex of the faction that your creating units for?

What is the tomb? Is it a space marine relic?

It's the Tome of Malcador. Tome. Like a book. Not a Tombstone, like a grave.

And yes, it is a SM relic. It grants an additional Librarius power. Which means a Phobos Librarian can get access to a Librarius power, such as Null Zone, that they wouldn't otherwise have.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It's the Tome of Malcador. Tome. Like a book. Not a Tombstone, like a grave.

And yes, it is a SM relic. It grants an additional Librarius power. Which means a Phobos Librarian can get access to a Librarius power, such as Null Zone, that they wouldn't otherwise have.

That is pretty mean. I like it.

urzaplanewalker wrote:
Went 2nd place in a tourney last Saturday with the following:

Primarus Librarian w/ Phobos w/ Tomb of Malacor
Primarus Lieutenant w/ Power Sword
10xVet Intercessors
5xInfiltrators
5xInfiltrators
1xPrimarus ancient w/ Big Banner
3xSuppressors
3xSuppressors
5xHellblasters
5xHellblasters
3xEliminators

Guiliman

Culexus
Vindicare
Eversor
85 point side board

The 2 games I won were due to me putting up nullzone on the librarian and corridoring it next to a knight. Blew up the knight each time turn 1. That tactic was total magic. Suppressors and eliminators were very lackluster and I would totally replace every squad with a pred or repulsor next time. Infiltrators were awesome in that they had 2 roles depending on the matchup. Either to forward deploy onto objectives or protect the castle from deepstrike. Their mere presence caused the spacewolf player to not infiltrate his wolfen and caused a daemon player to put less stuff in deep strike than usual.

Temporal corridor forces you to Advance and you cannot charge after you do so. How exately did you blew up the knight with the librarian? What am I missing?

Null zone.

Ice_can wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
He go second, the IK is likely to wipe all his hard hitters, at least cripple those Hellblasters and Suppressors to the level that Marines can no longer output enough shots to become a threat, leaving him nothing threatening when his turn came.

Can't wipe what you can't see.

For the mobility of the IK, which moves 16 to 18 inches a turn and still able to shoot / charge normally, I don't think you can hide.

It's not hiding or movement that's relevant it's using the deployment shenanigans and abusing the charictor targeting rules (they need fixed but that's on GW) makes you very tricky to kill.

This takes a high risk high reward play into more low risk high reward play.

It is not the Character that is in risk, it is your Big gun carrying guys. They have no "Character" keyword protection!!! So the Castellan, Crusader and Gallant work together can easily destroy the majority of Space Marine big guns in a single turn.

Thankfully, the tourney had what I concider to be a bare minimum amount of terrain, so hiding 16 space marines wasn't difficult. I actually went 2nd in both games (by choice in one and not in the other) and typically the knight had very little or anything to shoot at. The infiltrators were in the corners in ruins and I could easily fit 30 bodies behind a couple of buildings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Why hellblasters? I would do this trick with a squad of devs with las cannons and a cherub. If null zone doesnt go off use the coridor to get back / protect yourself. If it does let the las cannons rain down upon the target.

I need units that can move with my castle (guiliman is not worth 400 points if you don't get him into melee at some point). Space marines are also not points efficient if they only shoot and not charge into targets and do a little extra damage and shut down shooting. Hellblasters still have 11 attacks at strength 4 in a 5 man unit and do quite a lot of work in melee. They also have double the durability against small arms fire.

I feel like there are no old marines worth taking that are not predators or scouts atm (and scouts are being overtaken by infiltrators in my eyes), due to low wounds and attacks.

So I have had some decent success playing my marines as a gunline around a chapter master and lieutenant bubble. The problem I run in to is board control. I end up hemmed in my deployment zone for a good chunk of the game, as spreading out would sacrifice a lot of my shooting efficiency. We mostly play with progressive scoring, so by the time I've cleared out all the major threats, I'm down quite a few victory points. What do you guys do to claim far flung objectives mid game, while still being able to have decent damage output?

3 units of suppressors should help out gunline marines a lot. 24 str 7 -2AP 2dmg shots with rerolls should do a decent amount of damage. They have good range, and good speed for later on.

With the new phobos warlord trait giving you +1 to hit againgst a target and the new libriarian giving another unit +1 to hit with a power you should be able to dish out a decent amount of damage.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
3 units of suppressors should help out gunline marines a lot. 24 str 7 -2AP 2dmg shots with rerolls should do a decent amount of damage. They have good range, and good speed for later on.

With the new phobos warlord trait giving you +1 to hit againgst a target and the new libriarian giving another unit +1 to hit with a power you should be able to dish out a decent amount of damage.

Space Marine phobos libby don't have the psychic power giving +1 to hit....... There is one giving reroll failed hit though, which is cancelled by moving penalty of heavy weapon.

Just had a thought about the Imperial fists siegebreaker cohort...take a vanguard detachment of redemptor dreads with twin Gatling and twin storm bolters or a unit of centurions with all the dakka and use the strat to cause mortal wounds on vehicles..nasty

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
3 units of suppressors should help out gunline marines a lot. 24 str 7 -2AP 2dmg shots with rerolls should do a decent amount of damage. They have good range, and good speed for later on.

With the new phobos warlord trait giving you +1 to hit againgst a target and the new libriarian giving another unit +1 to hit with a power you should be able to dish out a decent amount of damage.

Space Marine phobos libby don't have the psychic power giving +1 to hit....... There is one giving reroll failed hit though, which is cancelled by moving penalty of heavy weapon.

Suppressors don't wear phobos armor.

Which is very silly since they came in the same set

NvM. Bad at reading.

Can Shadowspear characters use relics from the main codex? Armor Indomitus with CamoCloaks could make characters pretty difficult to remove, especially if your infiltrating those characters.

Yes pretty much any marine character can take them. FW had to put in an FAQ to stop you taking the armour on a chaplain dreadnought!

The phobos character +1 to hit ability is a warlord trait, not a psychic power. Unlike the sneaky librarian's psychic powers, which often only work on phobos units, there are no restrictions on what unit you can buff. You're allowed to give a unit of 10 hellblasters +1 to hit to overcharge safely, or some dakka centurions +1 to trigger tons of extra shots with bolter drill.

Hey all, just wanted to post a 2000 point list I've been trying out lately and see if I could get some constructive criticism. I prefer the look of primaris marines and use them exclusively for infantry, with the exception of scouts, whose scale doesn't bother me as much next to primaris. I'm trying to build a list that has some power (doesn't need to be ultra competitive, just serviceable in an average casual meta), but while still looking like an aesthetically pleasing combined arms marine force. I don't face knights at all, so that's not part of the equation. We play book missions with progressive scoring or maelstrom mostly and maps with lots of cover and LOS blocking terrain.

Raven Guard Battalion

HQ

Primaris Captain with powerfist and plasma pistol (chapter master for rerolls)

Primaris LT with power sword

Troops

Bolter Scout x5
Bolter Scout x5
Intercessor x5
Intercessor x5
Veteran Intercessors x10

Elite

Redemptor dread with gatling cannons and storm bolters
Relic Sicaran venator tank destroyer with hunter killer missile
Reivers x5 with grav chutes and carbines

Fast Attack

Bikers x3 with storm bolter sgt
Plasma Inceptors x3

Heavy Support

Mortis contemptor with double twin lascannons
Relic leviathan dread with two storm cannon arrays

Flyer

Xiphon Interceptor

comes out to 2000 points exactly.

I form a fire base around the characters, and keep the inceptors and reivers in reserve. There is a bit of resiliency since everything except the sicaran has a minus one to hit at range. If the opposing army is a melee hoard, the fire base remains stationary in early turns and thins them out as they advance towards it with the scout squads screening in front of it. If its a shooty opponent, the fire base moves towards an objective (most of the shooting platforms either ignore movement modifiers or have native 2+ to hit, lowering the loss of firepower for moving). In the case of a shooty opponent the scouts don't need to screen and forward deploy on an out of the way objective. The xiphon can operate independently to attack heavy targets. The bike squad deploys behind the fire base to pop out later to either bolster the firing line or turbo boost on to an objective. The plasma inceptors deepstrike turn two or three to finish off a hard target the lascannons have softened up. The reivers wait till turn three when theres less fire power on the board to deepstrike on to an objective.

New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.

 Insectum7 wrote:
New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.

Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?

Drop pod doors are back to being roadblocks.

bort wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.

Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?

Yeah, but that's also limited to non-matched play as you can't use a stratagem twice in the same phase.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Drop pod doors are back to being roadblocks.

I hadn't thought of that but that's huge for anybody who wants to use pods.

 Insectum7 wrote:

bort wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
New FAQ appears to remove the one-hellfire/Flakk-stratagem-fired-twice-by-Cherub gimmick. Which stings a little but makes sense, as it felt a bit hackey.

Well, I guess you can still use it twice, you just have to pay twice?

Yeah, but that's also limited to non-matched play as you can't use a stratagem twice in the same phase.

Ah, okay. I was wondering about their wording. First it says to go ahead and use it again if you want, then it said subject to regular restrictions, but regular restrictions don't allow reuse. I forgot nonmatched does allow repeated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Part of me is glad, cause I hated those cherub models and that double shot was the primary reason I kept feeling obligated to keep Devs in my list. But then, on the other hand, I also own a ton of heavy weapon models from prior editions and this is yet another nail in their coffin.