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Questionable toughness aside, I did some math on the Twin-Lascannon and Predator Autocannon against some common targets, seeing as the two weapons cost more or less the same.

Averages, so the Predator Autocannon fires 4 shots.
Damage after Damage-multipliers in brackets.

While standing still and shooting at:

Vs. T3 5+
Predator Autocannon: 1,85 (5,54)
Twin Lascannon: 1,11 (3,88)
AC wins.

Vs. T3 4+
Predator Autocannon: 1,48 (4,43)
Twin Lascannon: 1,11 (3,88)
AC wins.

Vs T3 3+
Predator Autocannon: 1,11 (3,33)
Twin Lascannon: 0,93 (3,24)
AC wins barely.

Vs T4 3+
Predator Autocannon: 0,89 (2,66)
Twin Lascannon: 0,92 (3,23)
LC wins.

Vs T4 2+
Predator Autocannon: 0,59 (1,77)
Twin Lascannon: 0,76 (2,59)
LC wins.

Vs T5-T6 4+
Predator Autocannon: 1,18 (3,55)
Twin Lascannon: 0,88 (3,11)
AC wins.

Vs T5-T6 3+
Predator Autocannon: 0,89 (2,66)
Twin Lascannon: 0,74 (2,60)
AC wins barely.

Vs T7 3+.
Predator Autocannon: 0,67 (2,00)
Twin Lascannon: 0,74 (2,59)
LC wins.

Vs T8 3+.
Predator Autocannon: 0,44 (1,32)
Twin Lascannon: 0,74 (2,59)
LC wins.

LC deals the most damage overall by 0,45.

Now, while moving and shooting:

Vs. T3 5+
Predator Autocannon: 1,39 (4,17)
Twin Lascannon: 0,83 (2,92)
AC wins.

Vs. T3 4+
Predator Autocannon: 1,11 (3,33)
Twin Lascannon: 0,83 (2,92)
AC wins.

Vs T3 3+
Predator Autocannon: 0,83 (2,5)
Twin Lascannon: 0,69 (2,43)
AC wins barely.

Vs T4 3+
Predator Autocannon: 0,67 (2)
Twin Lascannon: 0,69 (2,43)
LC wins.

Vs T4 2+
Predator Autocannon: 0,44 (1,33)
Twin Lascannon: 0,56 (1,94)
LC wins.

Vs T5-T6 4+
Predator Autocannon: 0,89 (2,67)
Twin Lascannon: 0,67 (2,33)
AC wins.

Vs T5-T6 3+
Predator Autocannon: 0,67 (2)
Twin Lascannon: 0,56 (1,94)
AC wins barely.

Vs T7 3+.
Predator Autocannon: 0,5 (1,5)
Twin Lascannon: 0,56 (1,94)
LC wins.

Vs T8 3+.
Predator Autocannon: 0,33 (1)
Twin Lascannon: 0,56 (1,94)
LC wins.

LC deals the most damage overall by 0,29.

TLDR:

Predator Autocannon is better against T3, T5 and T6.

Twin Lascannon is better against T4, T7 and T8.

The Twin Lascannon deals slightly more damage overall, but it's worth noting that the gap narrows if the tank moves.

Personally I will model my new Predator with the Autocannon anyway, mainly because I've always liked how it looks, but also because while it has a random number of attacks, I like it's solid D:3 compared to the Lascannons D: D6.

 MinscS2 wrote:
So the Predators statline has a typo in it right?

Rhino (previously 11/11/10, 3 HP)
T7, 10 Wounds, 3+ save.

Razorback (previously 11/11/10, 3 HP)
T7, 10 Wounds, 3+ save.

Whirlwind (previously 11/11/10, 3 HP)
T7, 11 Wounds, 3+ save.

Stalker (previously 12/12/10, 3 HP)
T8, 11 Wounds, 3+ save.

Hunter (previously 12/12/10, 3 HP)
T8, 11 Wounds, 3+ save.

Vindicator (previously 13/11/10, 3 HP)
T8, 11 Wounds, 3+ save.

Predator (previously 13/11/10, 3 HP)
...T7..., 11 wounds, 3+ save.

- Why on earth does the Predator have the same defensive statline as the Whirlwind?
- Why does the Vindicator, Stalker and Hunter have T8 while the Predator has T7?
- Why can you (almost) buy 2 Twin-Las Razorbacks for the same price as one Twinlas+Lassponsons Predator, for similar firepower but 20 T7 wounds vs 11 T7 wounds?

Surely the Predator should have T8? Especially given that the cheapest version of it costs 171 pts, but it can go beyond 200 pts. For 11 T7 wounds....
Compare to the Vindicator which is 160 pts and T8.
T8 would also differentiate the Predator from the transports, and not make two Razorbacks a no-brainer over a single Predator Annihlator.

Similar situation,

Why does a Land Speeder Storm have 7 wounds, and yet a Land Speeder only has 6. I thought the Storm was supposed to be the weaker and less armoured version?

C.Straken wrote:

Similar situation,

Why does a Land Speeder Storm have 7 wounds, and yet a Land Speeder only has 6. I thought the Storm was supposed to be the weaker and less armoured version?

The LSS is bigger, so get an extra wound. It also is less armored, with a 4+ save, not a 3+

Seems fair.

Knocked out a 2k game with all the primarus stuff in the dark imperium box an apothecary, las devs and a 10man terminator with asscannons and stuff.

got dominated by a imperial knight and a storm raven. but was interesting

was overloaded with characters which kinda screwed me over but the ancient, and hellblasters were cash money. 4+ to get a free shot at overcharge with no risk was awesome followed by another 4+ to bring the guy back.
(they shoot whatever shots when they are out of rapid fire but the second the enemy gets into rapid fire its fine to go ham and overcharge all the things (if necessary) followed by anyone that died getting two more shot on a 4+)

I played the Relic vs. Orks with 1000 pts of my 2000 pts Crimson Fists list. My Scouts got to the Relic first, then my Devastators went to work blasting away at stuff. My missile Devs blasted away at his Boyz with frag missiles while the Lascannon Devs one-shotted his Warboss (weird positioning issues led to him being the closest model my Devs could see, so BOOM! 6 on the damage roll). I tricked him into charging Pedro+Honour Guard's Rhino, which fell back after offloading Pedro and his Goon Squad (my opponent's name for them). The squad of Boyz crumpled after being charged. What didn't die in CC fell to Morale. Since, by that time, the Scouts had worked their way around and out of sight with the Relic, he had no choice but to concede.

I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.

 benlac wrote:
I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.

Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game

they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.

Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/

 Desubot wrote:

 benlac wrote:
I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.

Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game

they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.

Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/

I did that math-hammering because I was replacing my snipers, lol. Against weaker characters I imagine they'd be good, but I think you need a unit of 10 to truly put significant wounds on tougher characters, and then at 180 for 10 scout snipers it's starting to get a bit pricey...
Edit: I suppose you could try doing snipers without cloaks?
...Or bolter/heavy bolter with cloaks?

At that price i rather have another hellblaster squad for 10 points more

 Desubot wrote:
At that price i rather have another hellblaster squad for 10 points more

Definitely. Overall it seems like scouts aren't as great in this edition. Kind of a shame as I like scouts.

Can I just say that I love the new Hellblasters? I was playing against a Necron player the other day, and he moved up his C'tan just close enough so that my Hellblasters and Captain could move up into LOS. One round of super charged plasma fire later and the C'tan was at 1 wound, and was then finished off by a squad of bored sniper scouts who finally got to do something that game.

 benlac wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
At that price i rather have another hellblaster squad for 10 points more

Definitely. Overall it seems like scouts aren't as great in this edition. Kind of a shame as I like scouts.

they have their uses.

its a cloak scouts are terminators in cover. thats pretty significant. i think taking a few min squads to hold objectives might be worth while. especially since they can be forward deployed

i think i need to rethink their rolls and just not take snipers (which is going to suck for modeling those arms off (or i get lazy and just take the sniper barrel off and call them bolters)

heavy bolters might be nice for throwing down some extra damage at range. iv tried missiles and im just not very lucky with them

 MinscS2 wrote:


Personally I will model my new Predator with the Autocannon anyway, mainly because I've always liked how it looks, but also because while it has a random number of attacks, I like it's solid D:3 compared to the Lascannons D: D6.

Magnets my friend! the Predator main gun is one of the easiest things to magnetize I've run across. Just clip off the peg thingies from the guns, put a 1/16th by 1/8th magnet in one of the holes those pegs would go into on the turret, drill a hole where one of the pegs on the gun piece is, and put another magnet in it. I've found that one side is enough to hold it in just fine.

Anyway also thanks for the math breakdown.

 Desubot wrote:

 benlac wrote:
I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.

Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game

they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.

Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/

Where Shotguns are good at is being Assault 2, S5 at 6". (Now I am biased because they mix good with Melta-Guns on Wolf Scouts). While that might not mean as much to many, vs T4 (3+ to Wound) and T9 (5+ to wound) it can make a difference.

Re: Scounts

I think scouts main use this edition is as bubblewrap in shooty mech lists against assaulting enemies.


If you know you can get first turn, deploy them in a razorback to minimize the number of drops you have. If you are going second anyway, set them up protecting you against first turn charges.

jcd386 wrote:
Re: Scounts

I think scouts main use this edition is as bubblewrap in shooty mech lists against assaulting enemies.


If you know you can get first turn, deploy them in a razorback to minimize the number of drops you have. If you are going second anyway, set them up protecting you against first turn charges.

Yeah forwarding deploying makes it harder for people to deep strike directly in front as well if you position it properly

they have a lot of not offensive utility which is great

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 benlac wrote:
I did some quick mathhammering for scouts with shotguns vs combat knives & bp's vs bolters. Shotguns aren't all they're cracked up to be. Bolters still where it's at imo.

Honestly finding sniper scouts to be all that good. the snipers dont really pull weight but that might be me being a bad at rolling dice in a dice rolling game

they do however hold objectives in ruins like a boss. so im kinda torn.

Cheap with bolters or expensive with camo cloaks :/

Where Shotguns are good at is being Assault 2, S5 at 6". (Now I am biased because they mix good with Melta-Guns on Wolf Scouts). While that might not mean as much to many, vs T4 (3+ to Wound) and T9 (5+ to wound) it can make a difference.

They are definitely still viable, I just found people were pretty amped on them and my quick mathhammering didn't support that in a spectacular way. I think you'd have to play shotgun scouts well for them to be better than bolter scouts i.e. getting in that "within 6'' sweet spot. As a screening unit bolters seem just as good as shotguns a lot of the time as units are deep striking at 9'' (both are taking two str 4 shots). But then the bolters are far more likely to be in range in other situations, so much more versatile. Maybe it comes down to a matter of playstyle/preference though, I'm more of a defensive player with SM's.

Well Shotgun scouts can run and shoot, which is definitely a bonus when closing in.
My pure Minotaur list has 2 CCW Scouts and 2 Shotgun Scouts. All with Combi-Melta Sergeants of course. Been doing okay with it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Shotgun scouts can run and shoot, which is definitely a bonus when closing in.
My pure Minotaur list has 2 CCW Scouts and 2 Shotgun Scouts. All with Combi-Melta Sergeants of course. Been doing okay with it.

how do you usually play them? deployed far ahead to hunt threats or moving up with your main force?

 benlac wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Shotgun scouts can run and shoot, which is definitely a bonus when closing in.
My pure Minotaur list has 2 CCW Scouts and 2 Shotgun Scouts. All with Combi-Melta Sergeants of course. Been doing okay with it.

how do you usually play them? deployed far ahead to hunt threats or moving up with your main force?

I'm really using them as Meat Shields, which is why I have the success. Two squads will be going with the main force, and spread out a bit to the annoyance of my opponent (because I want Asterion protected obviously).

For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.

So, the Terminus Ultra is 400 points for 8 Lascannons on a Land Raider frame now. Not to shabby, just have to get those extra predator sponsons from somewhere.

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, the Terminus Ultra is 400 points for 8 Lascannons on a Land Raider frame now. Not to shabby, just have to get those extra predator sponsons from somewhere.

If you're going that route, why not take a Shadowsword? More damage output against big targets, better defenses, not that much more expensive, much more resilient to melee...

 buddha wrote:
For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.

Only if you're concerned about your captain being sniped out from under you. I don't think the Gravis captain is worth taking for gunline support (too melee centric) but terminator armor would bring some benifits. that could be useful if you where concerned about snipers

BrianDavion wrote:

 buddha wrote:
For gunline support is there any reason to take anything other than a big standard captain? Gravis and terminator armor offer different benefits but I'm not sure the point increase of ether is worth it just to get those sweet reroll aura.

Only if you're concerned about your captain being sniped out from under you. I don't think the Gravis captain is worth taking for gunline support (too melee centric) but terminator armor would bring some benifits. that could be useful if you where concerned about snipers

I’d give him some basic gear (power weapon, maybe a plasma pistol for looks), but I think the normal power armor guy is quite viable for that role. No reason to spend the points for the better amor. And having that aura for your firebase is a very nice thing to have.

I've been giving my captains, and most other HQ types, a storm bolter and power sword, and i think it works pretty well.

Has anyone found a way to effectively use hellblasters yet? They get shot off of the table in seconds.

It's 8th edition, so virtually all of my games are against Astra Millitarum / straight up Imperial Guard, and 6-10 Manticores blow multiple units off the table per turn that are completely hidden.

The rest of my games are T'au with the new Forgeworld Riptide, which jumps in, and does enough shooting to annihilate any high priority unit, and comes with a 4+ invuln on 14 wounds, so these guys aren't super worth it there, either.

I'm struggling with how to use these. What role do they fill in your army? And, how do you ensure they can reliably perform it?

 Kingsley wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, the Terminus Ultra is 400 points for 8 Lascannons on a Land Raider frame now. Not to shabby, just have to get those extra predator sponsons from somewhere.

If you're going that route, why not take a Shadowsword? More damage output against big targets, better defenses, not that much more expensive, much more resilient to melee...

Edit: hang on brain fart.

True but its also not a space marine. you lose out on a really cool modeling project. sucks though with the overloading rule.

 Marmatag wrote:
Has anyone found a way to effectively use hellblasters yet? They get shot off of the table in seconds.

It's 8th edition, so virtually all of my games are against Astra Millitarum / straight up Imperial Guard, and 6-10 Manticores blow multiple units off the table per turn that are completely hidden.

The rest of my games are T'au with the new Forgeworld Riptide, which jumps in, and does enough shooting to annihilate any high priority unit, and comes with a 4+ invuln on 14 wounds, so these guys aren't super worth it there, either.

I'm struggling with how to use these. What role do they fill in your army? And, how do you ensure they can reliably perform it?

I think all of the Primaris stuff has this issue. 2W is passable against small arms fire, but they have no meatshields for soaking wounds like vehicle or tactical squad would to protect their expensive/important models. It's a linear decrease in power for every guy lost as well, where as a predator is still ~50% effective with 10 wounds gone.

Frankly, skip the Primaris stuff until they get new rules IMO, especially if your meta is manticore and riptide spam.

Played my 1st game as marines this edition. Can't comment too much on units obviously then, but on very first impression, Lias Issodon is great. Himself and 3 full tactical squads with grav and double plasma deep striking was fun.

Maybe the only downside is, with an awesome buff aura such as re-roll hits and increased movement, it encourages blobbing squads.

I also had 47 deep striking models in a 2k list, which gets tricky finding landing zones to fit them all whilst staying more then 9 away from the enemy.

I tried 3 squads of legion of the damned, they kept a knight busy and held an objective. Not sure what to make of them this edition?

They don't get buffs from characters, cost the same, aren't slow and purposeful. Cover isn't the same anymore, so ignoring it might not be as big of a deal.

On the other hand, they can now deep strike turn one and are fairly tough in cover themselves. They get a heavy and special at 5 men.