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 ph34r wrote:
What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?

Personally i think you don't actually want a pure gunline with raven guard since even unless all your enemy has is heavy weapons they'll just move whilst firing and close until we breaks your chapter tactics. Necrons for instance with a load of warriors can probably wether the storm and then just blast you point blank way better than you can and there are other things like eldar can find ways to mitigate or even ignore it with a few units.

I think a mix is best of a strong gunline of infantry (probably intercessors and devastators) and maybe dreads if that's your thing in the back with units like terminators and assault squads/VV in reserve to jump down and slow advances and finish off units so you can take objectives

Also Aggressors get a special mention imho since with the stratagem you can start the game 9" away and then either take double shots with guns and frags or move forward and burn a unit to death

GAdvance wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?

Personally i think you don't actually want a pure gunline with raven guard since even unless all your enemy has is heavy weapons they'll just move whilst firing and close until we breaks your chapter tactics. Necrons for instance with a load of warriors can probably wether the storm and then just blast you point blank way better than you can and there are other things like eldar can find ways to mitigate or even ignore it with a few units.

I think a mix is best of a strong gunline of infantry (probably intercessors and devastators) and maybe dreads if that's your thing in the back with units like terminators and assault squads/VV in reserve to jump down and slow advances and finish off units so you can take objectives

Also Aggressors get a special mention imho since with the stratagem you can start the game 9" away and then either take double shots with guns and frags or move forward and burn a unit to death

Ditto i think you want a good mix of things.

im honestly thinking centurion assault squads poping up 9" away then moving and assaulting could be one of the most broken things in the game for T1 assault.

but you still want a good gun line to take out any flyers or other heavy support that you can spot.

People have to remember that most people are going to have screens of some sort for deep strike. So you need to take that into account.

 Leth wrote:
People have to remember that most people are going to have screens of some sort for deep strike. So you need to take that into account.

Well centurion assault marines come with two flamers or meltas AND hurrican bolters

thats kinda comparable to a aggressor.

What are you guys going to use as screens in your SM armies? Scouts? Tacs? An IG detachment?

Careful deployment can help mitigate the units that are within 9" of a dropping enemy unit, but I've found that a lot of my lists don't have a ton of expendable units in them so far.

jcd386 wrote:
What are you guys going to use as screens in your SM armies? Scouts? Tacs? An IG detachment?

I've recently started using Shotgun-Scouts as screens.
I've had mixed results, but they look awesome if nothing else.

jcd386 wrote:
What are you guys going to use as screens in your SM armies? Scouts? Tacs? An IG detachment?

Careful deployment can help mitigate the units that are within 9" of a dropping enemy unit, but I've found that a lot of my lists don't have a ton of expendable units in them so far.

For the current list I'm using, it's three squads of CCW Scouts, all with Combi-Melta just in case. I know Combi-Plasma is the hot thing, but my friends only have the Combi-Melta so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
On the page that explains how to use detachments and what command points are.

I feel like a jackass for missing that. If I knew that I might gotten better than 4th at my locals.

Congrats either way!

Thanks. The Minotaurs list I posted here and in the Army List section actually did alright. I guess my other issue is just how Chapter Tactics are supposed to work for us FW Chapter users.

 Desubot wrote:

GAdvance wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?

Personally i think you don't actually want a pure gunline with raven guard since even unless all your enemy has is heavy weapons they'll just move whilst firing and close until we breaks your chapter tactics. Necrons for instance with a load of warriors can probably wether the storm and then just blast you point blank way better than you can and there are other things like eldar can find ways to mitigate or even ignore it with a few units.

I think a mix is best of a strong gunline of infantry (probably intercessors and devastators) and maybe dreads if that's your thing in the back with units like terminators and assault squads/VV in reserve to jump down and slow advances and finish off units so you can take objectives

Also Aggressors get a special mention imho since with the stratagem you can start the game 9" away and then either take double shots with guns and frags or move forward and burn a unit to death

Ditto i think you want a good mix of things.

im honestly thinking centurion assault squads poping up 9" away then moving and assaulting could be one of the most broken things in the game for T1 assault.

but you still want a good gun line to take out any flyers or other heavy support that you can spot.

Yeah despite what people htink it's not a straight boost to surviveability, it's a situational bonus that is basec on making your enemy play actively aggressive, i'm all for active aggression in the game but you force someone who isn't used to it to rush at you and they'll make serious and exploitable mistakes.

Assault Centurions are almost certainly the most capable candidate but they cost more than anything else and people are already learning to bubblewrap so it'll be situational at best

GAdvance wrote:


Yeah despite what people htink it's not a straight boost to surviveability, it's a situational bonus that is basec on making your enemy play actively aggressive, i'm all for active aggression in the game but you force someone who isn't used to it to rush at you and they'll make serious and exploitable mistakes.

Assault Centurions are almost certainly the most capable candidate but they cost more than anything else and people are already learning to bubblewrap so it'll be situational at best

Its primarily why i like the idea of assault centurions

a unit of 3 has 6d6 flamers and 18 bolter shots out their chests. i dont recall how much aggressors can put out but i dont think their fists are nearlly as strong as siege drills.

it should for the most part wreck most bubble wrap level units.

double that for a full unit but man thats expensive unit for 13 Str10 ap -4 D3 close combat attacks

sossen wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

sossen wrote:
The difference between battalion and brigade is pretty big, it's a shame that SM are basically locked out of any reasonable brigade builds. Some of the SM stratagems are very impactful and you always want to have the option of interrupting your opponent's charge attacks.

Well, that's what balance and compelling choices are all about. You have to give to get.

SM has to give a lot more than most to get that juicy brigade. I doubt that it's worth it, 6 naked scout/tac/intercessor squads and three (probably bad) FA choices is a heavy price to pay.

In exchange, SM gets really impactful stratagems, just as you described. I see no issues here. Yet.

Luckily speeders took a price drop of 15 points so that is something to consider.

So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?

Depends, what else do you have and do you value spending CP on those other things. If the sternguard are your best unit then probably not since you can't same the same stratagem twice a round, that said though sternguard are pretty easy to kill, so i wouldn't bet on them being you're be all end all.

Also i think you have to allocate CP to what you're likely to need in your mind ahead of battle, for me it's like 2 on rerolls, 2 on morale and my other 3 wherever i need them at the time.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?

7 is a lot. I say stick with the giant squad.

GAdvance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am manipulating my list so I can get more Command Points. I have one Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments planned. I am one Elites short on one Vanguard Detachment, however, I have a 10-man Sternguard Squad. Should I divide the Sternguard up, despite it reducing the effectiveness of Strategems, or just live with 7 Command Points?

Depends, what else do you have and do you value spending CP on those other things. If the sternguard are your best unit then probably not since you can't same the same stratagem twice a round, that said though sternguard are pretty easy to kill, so i wouldn't bet on them being you're be all end all.

Also i think you have to allocate CP to what you're likely to need in your mind ahead of battle, for me it's like 2 on rerolls, 2 on morale and my other 3 wherever i need them at the time.

Pedro Kantor
Rhino Primaris
Lieutenant (with Fist of Vengeance)
Apothecary
Honour Guard
Intercessors Squad x2
Bolter Scouts
Sternguard with Combi Melta x5
Sternguard with Combi Plasma x5
Sternguard with Special Issue Boltguns x10
Lascannon Devastators
Hellblasters
Asscan Razorback X2
Rhino

I have the points left for a Chapter Champion or a Lieutenant with a Power Sword. The Chapter Champion seems to be a better choice since the first Lieutenant and Pedro will make synergize well. A second Lieutenant would go back with Hellblasters or Lascannon Devastators.

Ultimately, I think Slayer-Fan123 is right, 7 CP is probably enough. Plus, a huge squad of Sternguard works better with Command Points and they have a high enough Leadership not to lose too much to Morale.

Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?

You would lose out on chapter tactics

otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.

 Desubot wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?

You would lose out on chapter tactics

otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.

and chapter tactics can be a game changer. does anyone know if that affects relics too? for some reason i thought i read that it did

What do people think is the best loadout for a backfield Captain to babysit some long range stuff? Maybe Primaris with a MC Stalker Rifle?

 Desubot wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?

You would lose out on chapter tactics

otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.

Ooh, gotcha. Out of curiosity, can you still bring in allied detachments without losing Chapter Tactics? Does the whole ARMY have to be [Chapter], or just the Detachment?

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
What do people think is the best loadout for a backfield Captain to babysit some long range stuff? Maybe Primaris with a MC Stalker Rifle?

This is what i'm planning to use initially. Cheap and reasonably effective backline buff unit.

Though i might also add in the power sword, simply as an additional combat aid should the need arise.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Speaking as someone who picks up the book on Thursday:
Is there any reason not to fill up 'bad' slots with other allies? I can just jam my Fast Attack full of Dominions and my Heavy Support full of... I dunno, something cheap from IG. Getting a lot of CPs seems vital in order to use many abilities, and Dominions are already great, so what's the downside?

You would lose out on chapter tactics

otherwise getting 12+ CP would be trivial.

Ooh, gotcha. Out of curiosity, can you still bring in allied detachments without losing Chapter Tactics? Does the whole ARMY have to be [Chapter], or just the Detachment?

They said detachment on Facebook. So you could take a cheap battalion full of mixed Imperium for 9 command points, and then what you want in a smaller detachment. Probably not worthspending 300-500 points just to get more command points though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I actually think IF are better than people think. Their warlord trait makes devastators more durable than that raven guard CT does vs -1 weapons (which are the best things to kill them with), and ignoring cover makes killing infantry much easier.

They are likely the best anti primaris / grey knights / heavy infantry army chapter since there is no way to get cover saves vs things like plasma and Dakka dreads.

I totally forgot to look into wl traits

what did everyone else get?

Crimson Fists WL trait is basically Rampage except it triggers if he is within 6" of 10 enemy models. So Pedro Kantor does 5+d3 attacks if 10 or more models are near him. Kind of lame, actually. I would have preferred Iron Resolve (+1W and Ignore Wounds on 6).

True, but it makes him a flat out murder machine in CC.

+1 A to himself and all allies within 6". +1d3A when he has 10+ enemies within 6".

Park a banner, apothecary and Lt near him (with the fist of vengance) for the win.

Its almost worth buying a second relic for the 'banner of the emperor'. Maybe a third relic so the Apothecary can get himself a 2+ save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?

Primaris Agressors.

Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.

Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.

Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.

I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.

Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.

Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.

Malifice wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?

Primaris Agressors.

Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.

Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.

Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.

I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.

Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.

Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.

Okay, "during deployment" is not a phase per se, but I'm pretty sure that the RG stratagem is going to be FAQ'd for one use only in Matched play. Setting up several units within rapid fire range sounds not only gamey but rather disgusting as well.

Enjoy it while it lasts though.

 Weazel wrote:

Malifice wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
What do people think the best units to go with for Raven Guard (specifically, I am making Raptors with Lias Issodon) ?

Primaris Agressors.

Park as many of them as you want 9" away before turn 1 using your strategem. 4 units of 5 should suffice. It'll cost you 4 CP. It'll cost 800 points.

Alpha strike him with each unit spitting out 60 bolter shots and 20d6 frag grenade shots.

Thats 240 bolter shots and 80d6 frag grenade rounds... it should remove pretty much every troop he has from the board.

I advise picking a Lt or two and Captain (or Shrike) with jump packs, and deep striking them on turn 1 near the units for re-rolls to hit and wound. Thats another 3-400 points.

Remaining points should be spend on as many lascannons on troops and dreads as you can afford and parking them miles away in a gunline.

Have a few cheap deepstriking units (Reivers are OK) to drop on objectives while your opponenet deals with the Alpha strike.

Okay, "during deployment" is not a phase per se, but I'm pretty sure that the RG stratagem is going to be FAQ'd for one use only in Matched play. Setting up several units within rapid fire range sounds not only gamey but rather disgusting as well.

Enjoy it while it lasts though.

Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.

Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.

Casvalremdeikun, why not take a heavy support detachment instead of another elite? You have two heavy support choices already and there are loads of good ones that you could add on. But for now you seem to have only 3 HQs and you need 4. The apothecary and chapter champion are both elites. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something though.

How are you finding the rhino primaris? I'm going to be at warhammer world this weekend and am thinking of buying one. Giving a unit +1 to hit is an immense bonus - potentially good enough to make my IF bolter drill stratagem worth using.

You only count as moving for the turn in which you came in as reinforcements.

Mandragola wrote:

Casvalremdeikun, why not take a heavy support detachment instead of another elite? You have two heavy support choices already and there are loads of good ones that you could add on. But for now you seem to have only 3 HQs and you need 4. The apothecary and chapter champion are both elites. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something though.

How are you finding the rhino primaris? I'm going to be at warhammer world this weekend and am thinking of buying one. Giving a unit +1 to hit is an immense bonus - potentially good enough to make my IF bolter drill stratagem worth using.

That's actually the dilemma. If I take another Lieutenant, I will have four HQ, but only 5 Elite. If I split the Sternguard, that will give me 6, which is enough for two Vanguard Detachments. But I don't really want to split the Sternguard because Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship both only affect one unit. I think I am just going to stick with the two detachments for now.

I haven't actually used the Rhino Primaris yet. Most of my games have been at 1000 pts, and it is too expensive to field at that value. It still looks like it will work great though. It is a Rhino, so it can Regen on a 6, but also heal itself with a Servo Skull if needed. But the +1 to Hit is great. It basically negates my need for dedicated anti-air. It will function as a delivery system for Pedro, the Lieutenant, the Apothecary, Honour Guard, and whatever the six model ends up being. The Chapter Champion's 2+ Armor and non-redundant ability makes him an ideal candidate. A Company Champion might be workable as well. His ability to get an Invulnerable, even if it is a 5+, helps him out a bit, though at the cost of an attack.

I'm pretty sure that the aggressors count as not having moved during their turn, since they will specifically deploy before turn 1 starts according to the stratagem.

GAdvance wrote:

Stratagems you use before game are specifically called out as unlimited in the BRB (page 215). And honestly I doubt they'll nerf this as it fits wiht the RG's character. It's just better than most other stratagems. I think it should probably cost 2CPs, or maybe 1 CP for troops and 2 for anything else.

Note though that they will count as moving, so cannot double-fire. Check the FAQs for this if you want confirmation. Deep strike, and anything similar, always makes the squad count as having moved.

Ignore the boltstorm gauntlets and frag launchers and just grab the flamer gauntlets then, sart 9" away and then move into flamer range on turn 1.

Honestly as someone who will have to use RG tactics until/unless FW releases chapter tactics i think using this multiple times is broken as hell, particularly with flamestorm aggressors who could honestly wipe an infantry unit each

They aren't deep striking, I thought. Because they're actually deploying, even if they have the same limitation for positioning as deep strike, it isn't a deep strike, right?