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Have any of you guys had much experience with the Apothecary yet?

I played 3 games with one yesterday and have to say I found the bringing a guy back on a 4+ pretty weak with how often you fail it and how often marine squads are simply wiped out. So much so i think I will be leaving him out of my future lists.

I didn't have any multi-wound models in my list for him to heal except for my HQs, which is probably the reason i found it so lackluster. Do you guys think they are only worth taking with bikes/cents/termies/etc mulri wound models, or maybe just not at all?

They're both bad, but the Primaris one is slightly more useful. I'd pass on Apothecaries in 8th.

 Crimson wrote:

 Gunnvulcan wrote:

wait, relic contemptors dont get worse?

They do, but not their speed.

BTW, it is completely absurd how resilient the relic contemptor is compared to redemptor. I've been building a contemptor and redempror side by side, and the contemptor is is tiny, yet, it is about as resilient as the redemptor and the relic variant is much more resilient.

Thank you for answering the question for me.

Speed is more important to me because I WANT them to make melee. With Asterion in the equation it isn't hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
They're both bad, but the Primaris one is slightly more useful. I'd pass on Apothecaries in 8th.

The issue is they don't heal a lot for the price.

If they healed up to 3 wounds, and revived models got half their wounds rounded up, they'd be...better?

apothecaries have paid off every single game Ive used one in

An apothecary healing up tactical marines all game is a total waste, but an apothecary bringing back anything worth more than he is is fantastic.

Bring back a pair of Terminators or a Centurion and you've invested 55+ points to gain a more than 55 points worth of guys

I think the Apotechary is damn good, at least when compared to the Ancient; the Ancient lets a dead guy attack on 4+, the Apotechary brings the dead guy back to life on 4+!

 Crimson wrote:
I think the Apotechary is damn good, at least when compared to the Ancient; the Ancient lets a dead guy attack on 4+, the Apotechary brings the dead guy back to life on 4+!

They are not mutually exclusive lol

So, now that we have our book and won't have anything new for a while, what kinds of lists are you guys having success with?

To start the conversation, I played a 16 or so person tournement yesterday at the local store with the below list and came in 2nd:

My list was:

Super heavy auxiliary Detachment - 0 CP (3 CP)

LoW: Roboute Guilliman - 360 Points (Warlord +3 CP)

Battalion Detachment: 3 - CP

HQ: Space marine Captain, Thunder Hammer, Storm Bolter - 97
HQ: Space Marine Librarian, Force Sword, Bolt Pistol (Relic: The Armor Indominus) - 105

Troops: 5 Tactical Squad, Combi-Plasma, Grav Cannon - 108
Troops: 5 Tactical Squad, Combi-Plasma, Grav Cannon - 108
Troops: 10 Scouts - 110

Heavy Support: Predator, x4 Las Cannons - 190
Heavy Support: Predator, x4 Las Cannons - 190

Dedicated Transport: Razorback, Twin Assault Cannon - 100
Dedicated Transport: Razorback, Twin Assault Cannon - 100
Dedicated Transport: Rhino, 1 Storm Bolter - 72
Dedicated Transport: Rhino, 1 Storm Bolter - 72

Vanguard Detachment: 1 CP

HQ: Techmarine, Power Sword, Bolt Pistol - 61

Elite: Dreadnought, 2 Twin Autocannons - 136
Elite: Dreadnought, 2 Twin Autocannons - 136
Elite: Apothecary - 55

2000 points - 10 CP

I played against a 3 knight list, a Chaos Khorne horde sort of list, and IG with a bunch of forge wold stuff with some units I didn't quite understand until it was too late (short story, don't let cyclops demolition vehicles blow up near you). I tabled the first two, and lost the third to the guy that ended up coming in first.

Some things I noticed in my games:

No surprise here, but Guilliman is amazing. Most of the people I played against were a bit upset at how good he is.

Grav cannons really pull their weight, even if you have to move sometimes and hit on 4s. The G-man rerolls obviously help here as well.

I need to remember to use the stratagems more. Having 10 CP and getting them back on a 5+ means I tended to have 4+ left at the end of each game. Looking back, there were a few places Orbital Bombard and Auspex Scan would have come in useful.

The apothecary was very lackluster without more than tac squads to heal.

The techmarine was slightly useful, but not very. D3 wounds is pretty random, and my vehicles tended to die before i couldn't fix them, since most decent players will try to focus things down.

The Librarian was somewhat useful with Smites and Psychic Scourge, and I like the utility of being able to shut down psykers and have nullzone available if i run into an invul save heavy situation, though I happened to not face any this time.

The thunder hammer captain is a solid melee unit. Can't really complain about his general performance much at all.

The preds, razors, and dreads are very effective at what they do, and keeping G-Man close by makes them pretty insane.

The scouts were great for keeping deepstrikers off my tanks and backline in 2 of my games.

I think next time I would drop the Apoth and Techmarine for another squad of tacs. I lose 1 CP for not having a 3rd detachment, but i think it would still be a net gain for the list.

Any thoughts on what other units are working / not working for you, what i could change for the better in my list, or what styles of SM lists you guys have been trying out?

I think my next plan is to try out a Lias Issodon Raptors list with 3x Devastaor squads with 4 Grav cannons each, or an imperial fist gunline with some sternguard.

What mission types were you playing in the tournament? In something like maelstrom do you think the relative lack of troops would be detrimental against another army with ObSec units?

Umm they were slightly different than the book missions but not much. No maelstrom stuff either, unfortunately.

In my games so far i have found that my troops die very quickly once they get out of their transports, so i am not convinced taking more than three 5 man tacs and two 5 man scout squads is really feasable in an ultramarine list with Gman taking up so many points. I have tried 4 tac squads and no scouts with some success, but the scouts really are great for stopping deepstriking nonsense, so i think I'll keep using them.

That being said, i think i have enough fire power to clear and then claim most objectives in a maelstrom situation. It seems like things die very quickly this edition, and Gman's reroll nonesense makes my shooting pretty devastating. I haven't played vs hordes lists much yet so maybe they will be slightly harder to shift in that situation.

How many troops have you guys found are "enough?"

How are you guys arming your tactical squads? Im thinking
10 man multi melta combi melta and melta gun with a power fist on the sarge
Another squad same as above minus the fist
Both in drop pods
3rd squad im thinking plasma gun + cannon

My experience so far suggests that all troop slots should now be filled with intercessors. It's really surprising just how much better they are than tacticals. They do the job that troops are required to do - get on an objective and stay there - very well. They kill a few things and can even fight a bit in cc.

Ravenguard intercessors are probably best. Imperial fist guys are good at killing other people's troops and ultramarines are best against rushing opponents.

Someone pointed out that iron hands intercessors are significantly tougher against 2-wound-dealing weapons. You have an 11/36 chance of stopping one of the wounds. If you do, it takes a second hit to kill the guy.

Salamanders, white scars and black templars give bonuses that help other units. They don't particularly benefit intercessors. White scars with assault bolters are quick I guess.

Guilliman makes it a bit hard not to play ultramarines. He's really that powerful.

My experience has been the opposite regarding core troops. One min squad of Intercessors and/or sniper scouts to camp an objective in cover is fine, but any more than that has been too costly. Regular Tactical Squads have been far more useful; a 5-man squad with a special and matching combi-weapon, riding in a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback. The special weapons are key, because it actually gives my Troops a job on the battlefield other than just "please don't die". The Razors really increase their survivability, mobility, and add quite a bit of dakka.

Outside of camping Ravenguard Intercessors or robust Iron Hands Intercessors, I prefer min squads of Tactical Marines as my core troops choices so far.

Do you transport units with your stormravens ?
I did some games with mine, using it as a transport, and it was quite useful.
But I am not certain it is always the best.

Not related but: I have been out of touch with 40k for almost 3 weeks, and now I keep reading about obsec units.
I didn't know it was a thing in 8th ed ?

I like tacticals with combi plasma, and either plasma gun or grav cannon. I prefer the grav cannon (the 4 shots males up for hitting on 4s imo), but both work pretty well.

I can see why people would like the durability of the intercessors, but their near complete lack of damage output is pretty disappointing. I've found that keeping tacticals in rhinos makes them quite durable, and when they do get out and fight they can actually kill things.

I don't think it's ever worth it to take a full 10 man tac squad, as taking two five mama let's you get another combi, and fills two of the three min troop slots needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would be hesitant to put too many points into a storm raven + guys inside, since it makes it even more of a must kill target. Plus i can't think of too much id really want to put inside of it.

The new codexes reward troops that are in pure codex detachments (all space marine, chaos marines, or grey knights, etc) with a new version of obsec.

Hey folks, what does the hive mind codex astartes think of this:

Take 9 Sternguard Veterans with special issue boltguns.

Take one Captain with the Storm of Fire warlord trait (add Primarch's Wrath to taste).

Stick in a drop pod, shake well and deploy within 15" of something you want dead.

Apply Masterful Marksmanship for 1CP.


My back-of-a-napkin math gives this setup about 10 wounds against something T7 with a 3+ save (my back-of-a-napkin math was wrong, it's more like 4-5 wounds), which covers quite a few vehicles and big nasties. The real kicker here is the synergy between Storm of Fire (-1 additional AP on a wound roll of 6+) and Masterful Marksmanship (+1 to wound rolls on special issue boltguns, which already have -2 AP to begin with). This unit wounds most things on a 4+ or better and one third of those wounds are at -3 AP. It does this for under 350 points and it is no glass cannon, especially if deployed in cover (remember you have 15" rapid fire range) and as part of the main battle line rather than in a forlorn hope type suicide deployment.

 General Helstrom wrote:
Hey folks, what does the hive mind codex astartes think of this:

Take 9 Sternguard Veterans with special issue boltguns.

Take one Captain with the Storm of Fire warlord trait (add Primarch's Wrath to taste).

Stick in a drop pod, shake well and deploy within 15" of something you want dead.

Apply Masterful Marksmanship for 1CP.


My back-of-a-napkin math gives this setup about 10 wounds against something T7 with a 3+ save, which covers quite a few vehicles and big nasties. The real kicker here is the synergy between Storm of Fire (-1 additional AP on a wound roll of 6+) and Masterful Marksmanship (+1 to wound rolls on special issue boltguns, which already have -2 AP to begin with). This unit wounds most things on a 4+ or better and one third of those wounds are at -3 AP. It does this for under 350 points and it is no glass cannon, especially if deployed in cover (remember you have 15" rapid fire range) and as part of the main battle line rather than in a forlorn hope type suicide deployment.

Nasty. I am tempted to test this with a Lias Issodon list too.

Lias won't require the Drop Pod either. He'll just bring his dudes there.

A rhino arguably works just as well as a drop pod.

Intercessors tend to beat sternguard, in my limited experience. I've seen a firefight between a bunch of ultramarine sternguard and some ravenguard intercessors who'd infiltrated into cover. Both were getting only 4+ saves but the ravenguard had two wounds each and the ultramarines only hit on a 4+.

Arguably, that just shows the benefit of the RG chapter tactic and the benefit of cover, but it's hard to pass up on a 2nd wound when the prices are so similar.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Lias won't require the Drop Pod either. He'll just bring his dudes there.

Exactly. More point efficient. And with him up there, he has a nice CM bubble.

Mandragola wrote:
A rhino arguably works just as well as a drop pod.

Intercessors tend to beat sternguard, in my limited experience. I've seen a firefight between a bunch of ultramarine sternguard and some ravenguard intercessors who'd infiltrated into cover. Both were getting only 4+ saves but the ravenguard had two wounds each and the ultramarines only hit on a 4+.

Arguably, that just shows the benefit of the RG chapter tactic and the benefit of cover, but it's hard to pass up on a 2nd wound when the prices are so similar.

I don't think this is a great comparison both units do such different things. The only thing intercessors reliably do is sit there and not die. Damage wise they are very poor.

Math says it takes 30, or 600 points of, intercessors rapid firing to kill 10 marines.

It takes 3 squads of 5 tac marines with a combi plasma and heavy grav cannons (324 points) to kill 5 primaris marines if they are both moving and not overcharging. If the grav cannon doesn't move and the plasma overcharges, they would kill 8.

The tacticals can also go in rhinos, keeping them safe from the enemy until the rhino dies.

Speaking of rhinos, tac squads or other marine squads are versatile, being able to put wounds on tanks and heavy infantry as well as normal infantry if needed. It takes 45 intercessors (900 points) rapid firing to kill a rhino.

It takes 5 moving not overcharging tac squads (540 points) or 3 not moving over charging (324 points) to kill a rhino.

The abundance of 2+ damage in lists makes the durability of primaris marines much less of an issue, and their lack of mobility means that it is likely the right weapons will be able to get into range. The durability of rhinos and the effectiveness of tac marine fire power makes them the superior troop choice in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could see bringing some intercessors in a foot marine list, or a heavy primaris list, but i think scouts might still do the job better.

Something that came up

is it me or does the limitation for chapter tactics only require that a detachment only needs to contain the same chapter and can contain other imperial stuff other than other space marine chapters?

so say patrol detachment hq is an inquisitor, troops are all tacticals for imperial fists. so the tacticals still get ignore cover.

you would however lose out on objective secured though.

 Desubot wrote:
Something that came up

is it me or does the limitation for chapter tactics only require that a detachment only needs to contain the same chapter and can contain other imperial stuff other than other space marine chapters?

so say patrol detachment hq is an inquisitor, troops are all tacticals for imperial fists. so the tacticals still get ignore cover.

you would however lose out on objective secured though.

"...so long as every unit in that detachment is drawn from the same Chapter." So, I'm afraid not. This is also the issue with using Lias Issodon or Raven Guard Chapter Tactics instead of a drop pod, in that it forces the entire detachment into that Chapter Tactic. In my case, as an Imperial Fists player, I'd like to preserve the ignores cover as well as the option of adding exploding sixes if I'm feeling spendy with my command points Lias especially is one mean option though!

Switching out the pod for a rhino saves about 20 points but makes you lose out on deep strike, as well as render the unit vulnerable from turn one. A drop pod can't be blown up before it gets to move.

I've considered adding a Lieutenant to the mix, but his paltry re-rolls are not worth the loss of a Sternguard. One might spend a few points to give the captain a jump pack and squeeze a tenth Sternguard into the pod though.

Ah good so i did miss that. thanks

The issue with sternguard in drop pods is the pod costs a lot, and sternguard don't really do that much damage to anything but light infantry. Mathematically, special issue bolt guns are just as good at killing marines as stormbolters are. Which is to say they are okay, but not good for much else.

10 rapid firing sternguard with no bonuses kill 4.44 marines. With the strategem for +1 to wound, they kill 5.9.with rerolls of 1 to hit or wound, they do 6.9, with 1s to hit and wound, they kill 8.06. Adding both reroll auras and the sternguard strat, and the IF bolter strat gets them up to 9.4. If they drop next to Robute and use the +1 wound strategem, they kill 10.53, which i think is the most buffs they can get, and it seems unlikely you could rely on that.

My point is none of these are very effective for putting about 300 points into. Killing 5-10 marines isn't terrible, but you have to consider that most valuable targets are more durable than marines. 6 marines becomes 3 terminators or primaris marines, or 2 paladins, and so on, so i just don't see it as being that cost effective.

My preferred option would be to instead take grav cannon devastators in the drop pod. They have more range, do the same damage as non buffed sternguard vs marines, and much more vs things with 3+ saves and more than 1 wound. You can also take 2 in one pod, halving the pod "tax." The range makes them less likely to die the next turn, and makes it easier to land them near characters for reroll auras. They arent as great for close combat, but sternguard are pretty terrible at that anyway.

I'm thinking of bringing a detachment of GKs to deep strike in support of my IF gunline. 10 strikes are 210, plus maybe a hammer on the sergeant. Use psybolt ammunition strat on the drop and put 40 hvy bolter shots into something. They work out cheaper than sternguard in a pod.

A battalion of GKs and one of marines doesn't leave much space for other stuff of course.

jcd386 wrote:
My preferred option would be to instead take grav cannon devastators in the drop pod. They have more range, do the same damage as non buffed sternguard vs marines, and much more vs things with 3+ saves and more than 1 wound. You can also take 2 in one pod, halving the pod "tax." The range makes them less likely to die the next turn, and makes it easier to land them near characters for reroll auras. They arent as great for close combat, but sternguard are pretty terrible at that anyway.

That is a scary prospect indeed! It adds up to about 550 points with a jump pack captain attached (Geronimo!) but it does put out an awful lot of hurt exactly where you want it. Interesting...

Tommorow i'm going to play a 2000pts battle against a peculiar Craftworld Eldar player.

He really likes their heavy stuff: Fire Prisms, Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Wraithlords, Wraith Guard, Wraith Knights and even Forge World units like the Lynx and the Cobra.

So I sat down, looked at my Space Marine collection and tried to cram as many anti-tank weaponry as I could in my army list.

This is what I came up with:

Interdiction Force Vulkan's Hammer (Salamanders)

HQ

Terminator Captain Eligius
Power sword, Storm bolter

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought Xavier
Multi-melta, Storm bolter, Salamanders' Mantle

Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop pod

Elites

Dreadnought
Twin Lascannon, Dreadnought CCW, Heavy flamer

Dreadnought
Twin Lascannon, Missile launcher

5 Tactical Terminators
Cyclone Missile launcher

5 Tactical Terminators
Assault cannon

Troops

10 Tactical Marines
Melta gun, Multi-melta, Combi-melta, Power fist

Drop pod, Storm bolter

Heavy Support

8 Devastator Marines
4 Missile launchers

Razorback
Twin Lascannon

Predator Annihilator
Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons

The plan is to deep strike the Captain, Chaplain dread, Tactical Squad and the Terminator Squad with Assault cannon en masse in his flank. The rest of the army will deploy out of sight as well as they can and move in advantageous firing positions in my first turn. From there I'll concentrate my fire in one vehicle at the time and hope it's enough.

What do you think of my plan? How would you handle an Eldar player that likes to spam Grav tanks?

I think you're basic approach is correct. Counter tanks with lascannon spam. There isn't a lot more to it!

If you've got them, a predator squadron is excellent. Give your warlord the Storm of Fire trait and stand nearby, then trigger their killshot stratagem. It's brutal, especially with autocannon turrets on the predators.

I find it funny this is a viable unit for Raven Guard but wouldn't be a very good unit for Salamanders.



Thinking of adding one to my Raven Guard list. For that initial strike.