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If you want a fast attack obj grabber, go for Attack Bikes.
47pts with the HB, 4 wounds, 3+ save, turbo-boost for 20" movement.
Cheap, fast and can take a wound or two before dying.

Scout bikers are also pretty decent for that role. Speeders are not, they're definitely better in a support role for other units.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?

Keep in mind that sternguard can use a sweet stratagem (+1 to wound IIRC)

 godardc wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?

Keep in mind that sternguard can use a sweet stratagem (+1 to wound IIRC)

Which has led to me question if I want to keep them as having 10 Combi weapon and 10 SIB. If I took the Combi away, I could afford a ton more stuff.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?

In one list I had Lias Infiltrate x2 10 man squads with Grav Cannons and it did pretty awesomely.

Intercessors don't bring the same offensive power, but their durability makes them the best objective camper we have available.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?

In one list I had Lias Infiltrate x2 10 man squads with Grav Cannons and it did pretty awesomely.

Intercessors don't bring the same offensive power, but their durability makes them the best objective camper we have available.

I have two Squads of Intercessors already. My Sternguard are 5 Combi Plasma, 5 Combi Melta, and 10 SIB. Since the Combi Squads are riding in Razorbacks, it might take a bit before they can really deliver. I really like the Sternguard Strategem, so I think they will stay for now.

Hey guys, what does a competitive Black Templars list look like in 8th?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey guys, what does a competitive Black Templars list look like in 8th?

You want Deep Striking melee and rush forward. I basically do that with Minotaurs and Asterion, so I imagine you may have success doing the same thing.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 godardc wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?

Keep in mind that sternguard can use a sweet stratagem (+1 to wound IIRC)

Which has led to me question if I want to keep them as having 10 Combi weapon and 10 SIB. If I took the Combi away, I could afford a ton more stuff.

I stopped using combi for mine.
They still wound rhino and dread on 4+ with this stratagem, it is pretty good, especially with their volume of fire.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?

In one list I had Lias Infiltrate x2 10 man squads with Grav Cannons and it did pretty awesomely.

Intercessors don't bring the same offensive power, but their durability makes them the best objective camper we have available.

I have two Squads of Intercessors already. My Sternguard are 5 Combi Plasma, 5 Combi Melta, and 10 SIB. Since the Combi Squads are riding in Razorbacks, it might take a bit before they can really deliver. I really like the Sternguard Strategem, so I think they will stay for now.

I tend to think that sternguard have had their day.

Sternguard with combi-weapons feel - to me at least - like they are outclassed by hellblasters - of either the assault or rapid fire varieties. I get that you can fire the bolters as well, and the stratagem is good, but having two wounds each makes a vast difference - as does having two shots at 24".

And intercessors are obviously better than the standard guys too. Again, a second wound is vastly better than a point of AP. Here though at least you do bring some stuff to the table that the hellblasters don't - you can fit 10 of them in a rhino (or whatever), jump out and pop the stratagem. It gives you a fairly good strike against whatever you're shooting... but to be honest it's hard to get all that excited about.

So personally I don't see a really compelling reason to bring Sternguard. If you've got some, cool. I have only 5, and no particular plans to use them.

Sternguard are one of the last ways for infantry to carry Heavy Flamers. I tend to use them for that purpose and have them ride in a transport. Outside of that, they're just not as versatile now that they can't use special issue ammo and combi-weapons simultaneously. The extra -1 AP on the gun does make a difference though, and they can be fine in a larger squad with bare special issue bolters.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Sternguard are one of the last ways for infantry to carry Heavy Flamers. I tend to use them for that purpose and have them ride in a transport. Outside of that, they're just not as versatile now that they can't use special issue ammo and combi-weapons simultaneously. The extra -1 AP on the gun does make a difference though, and they can be fine in a larger squad with bare special issue bolters.

How aren't they versatile though? They got basically two of the ammos in one gun for a price not much more than regular Marines (and it is 3 ammos if you go Imperial Fists basically), and can get you a fix of special weapons or heavy weapons.

Usually when people are saying Sternguard are versatile, they're talking about the Helfire Rounds. This is better than that.

There were some important modes on the old special ammo that are gone now. But bigger than that is the fact that you lose combi-weapons that can also fire special issue ammo. The new combined ammo is better than the old gets hot rounds, but I can't carry the ammo inside my combi weapons, so I lost a good chunk of what I used my old Sternguard for.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
There were some important modes on the old special ammo that are gone now. But bigger than that is the fact that you lose combi-weapons that can also fire special issue ammo. The new combined ammo is better than the old gets hot rounds, but I can't carry the ammo inside my combi weapons, so I lost a good chunk of what I used my old Sternguard for.

If you were giving them Combi-Weapons, it was for a suicide. It isn't like they were gonna use any special ammo after that drop.

If they ever managed to do that, your opponent is bad for letting that free KP or objective grabber stay that long.

They managed to do just fine in that role pre-8th. Sorry you couldn't make them work for you, but I had lots of success. They were kitted with Combi-Weapons to be able to handle multiple different types of targets, and they could discharge combi-Meltas to destroy one target, and switch to using special issue ammo after that. Can't do that anymore, so they've lost the versatility I got from them in previous editions. They were far more than just a suicide squad. Rhinos losing fire points lost a lot of their value though. Being able to cruise around and use 2x heavy flamer out of a rhino, or disembark and unload combi-meltas, or unleash special issue ammo against a whole range of various targets was useful. All that versatility is gone now, and the unit functions completely different than it used to.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
they could discharge combi-Meltas to destroy one target, and switch to using special issue ammo after that.

See that's the part I'm questioning. If they're doing a suicide drop they're dying afterwards. Your opponent just let them sit there afterwards? They're 30 point models that die like Tactical Marines so I'm questioning your opponent's decision making skills.

Again, it wasn't a suicide drop. I chose my targets carefully, to minimize backlash by positioning my other targets accordingly. If they were going to get annihilated in the opponent's next action, I wouldn't position them there. It's not rocket surgery.

There's more ways to play this game than I think you believe exist. Not everything has to go according to how you'd use them, and not all success people have comes from playing against opponents playing poorly.

You chose carefully with a drop Pod and then 5-10 30 point models not dying? I'm having a hard time buying that because if that were really the case it'd be blowing tournaments away.

New Sternguard are just as good, if not better, thanks to the much lower buy-in.

No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...

New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...

New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.

That has been my biggest turn off as well. I wish they had an upgrade for Combi weapons that gave them SI Ammo. I would gladly pay 2-3 pts extra on a Combi weapon for that.

Yup. And pre-8th, they could. They had combi-weapons that had 4 other shooting options. It was awesome. Now we have to choose between the two, and despite the base special ammo shots being better, they lost a lot of their versatility.

Have you played a leviathan dread since 8th dropped ?
A friend of mine is fielding one soon, and would like to have advices, and I am myself a bit curious

Has anyone played the Relic Falchion? Thoughts on taking it in a TAC as the anti-tank source then dedicating the remaining points to other jobs?

 wtwlf123 wrote:
No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...

New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.

Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...

New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.

Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.

Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...

New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.

Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.

Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.

Like I said, I've used x2 10 Man squads with Grav Cannons and moving them up with Lias. It was super effective and I recommend trying it at least once.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...

New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.

Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.

Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.

Like I said, I've used x2 10 Man squads with Grav Cannons and moving them up with Lias. It was super effective and I recommend trying it at least once.

I don't have the right army for it. I have Pedro Kantor to give out Rerolls and make charging my Sternguard a terrible idea, though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
No. Not a drop pod. A rhino. Not a suicide unit. I never mentioned putting them in a drop pod...

New Sternguard might very well be better. But they're different, and I can't use them the way I used to. I preferred them with their old configuration, because I liked the flexibility of having combi weapons that could fire special issue ammunition. It was like a 5-in-1 flexible unit, and now they only do one thing.

Why would anyone have used Sternguard in a Rhino 6th-7th? You blow it up real quick and then they do nothing.

Agreed. Though now, in 8e, I have been putting them in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods are just too expensive, even after their point drop.

Like I said, I've used x2 10 Man squads with Grav Cannons and moving them up with Lias. It was super effective and I recommend trying it at least once.

I don't have the right army for it. I have Pedro Kantor to give out Rerolls and make charging my Sternguard a terrible idea, though.

Fair enough. Definitely proxy it once though. My Lias is gonna be a nice looking Heavy Bolter model once I get all my bitz and kits in. Gonna be nice to play my OWN army again I can tell you that!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, I am conflicted. Are Sternguard worth it over Intercessors? Besides the extra AP and the ability to ride in cheap transports, I am having trouble thinking of what Sternguard have to offer anymore. Intercessors have an extra wound, and are only 20 pts more for a squad of 10. Honestly, there a fluffy reasons to take either one in my army (Crimson Fists have a large amount of Sternguard, but they also received a huge refit with Primaris Marines). What do I do?

I've been sticking 9 Sternguard with special-issue boltguns in a drop pod along with a captain, warlord traited with Storm of Fire. This trait synergises really well with the Masterful Marksmanship stratagem because it triggers on wound rolls of 6 or more, not natural sixes. Anything T7 or less is therefore wounded on a 4+ or better with a -2 or -3 AP. That covers a lot of vehicles which usually think themselves safe from a squad of souped-up tactical marines

The drop pod is a little pricey but I like how it lets me deploy the Sternguard exactly where I want them, and it keeps them completely safe from any alpha strike shenanigans at only 30 points over a Rhino. Note that this is not a suicide drop squad. They're supposed to go in and bolster the main force.

Hmmm, Masterful Marksmanship combined with Storm of Fire and the Rhino Primaris's Servo Skull +1 to Hit could lead to a ton of shots coming out of my unit of 10 Sternguard. I suppose I could give my Fist of Vengeance Captain Storm of Fire over giving Pedro Kantor Tenacious Opponent. I think I might do that. If I throw down Bolter Drill as well, they will vaporize just about anything in their path due to the shear number of wounds they would be putting out.

Audustum wrote:
Has anyone played the Relic Falchion? Thoughts on taking it in a TAC as the anti-tank source then dedicating the remaining points to other jobs?

I haven't used mine yet, but I've given it a lot of thought.

Ultimately I'm not convinced it's all that good for its price. The firepower is actually not that much better than you would get from the ~4 predator-equivalent vehicles you could have for the same amount of points. The falchion is very tough but probably not tougher than they would be, and it's a hell of a lot of eggs to put in one basket.

Having said that, there are advantages too. As a single model you can put buffs and psychic powers onto a falchion more easily than you could with 4 other units. And of course there's the fact that things that get shot by it end up so very, very dead.