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Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

What are people's thoughts on using a few Forgeworld Tanks?
I have a Vindicator Laser Destroyer, a Sicaran, and am about to get a turret for the Sicaran Punisher. (I have a friend who has his first turret messed up, so FW replaced it, I'm getting the spare and going to TLC-it-up to useability.)

It seems like the Vindicator Laser Destroyer is a good alternative to a Predator. Either getting 4 Lascannon shots with reliable damage (3 Damage, instead of D6) or getting 2 supercharged shots that ignore pretty much any armor save and do 6 damage a pop, with Vindicator-level durability (So T8 and an extra wound over Predators,) and it's slightly cheaper than a quad-Lascannon Predator.

However, I'm struggling to find a good role for either Sicaran. The regular version, with its autocannon, is... Alright, I guess, and can provide some AA, but the Rending mechanic isn't enough to make it really good at piercing armor, and considering how expensive it is, I'm inclined to just bring two Rifleman Dreads rather than bringing one of these. (Twice the shots, more wounds, all you really lose is the rending mechanic and minor AA ability.)
Similarly, the Punisher is... Actually not terrible when looking at pure Space Marines, all things considered, but since it gives itself an inbuilt "Re-roll 1's to hit" buff, it's not going to benefit from a nearby Captain, so it benefits less from being in a gunline.
Unfortunately, it competes in its role with a Leman Russ Punisher, which is just... Way, WAY better. Punisher Pask is slightly cheaper than a Sicaran Punisher, gets more than TWICE as many hits (There's no AP-1, but who gives a crap when you're getting twice as many hits,) is equally durable, and can also buff two other nearby tanks. So if you're taking a Sicaran Punisher, you are way, WAY overcharging compared to what allies could do.

Waaaghpower wrote:
What are people's thoughts on using a few Forgeworld Tanks?
I have a Vindicator Laser Destroyer, a Sicaran, and am about to get a turret for the Sicaran Punisher. (I have a friend who has his first turret messed up, so FW replaced it, I'm getting the spare and going to TLC-it-up to useability.)

It seems like the Vindicator Laser Destroyer is a good alternative to a Predator. Either getting 4 Lascannon shots with reliable damage (3 Damage, instead of D6) or getting 2 supercharged shots that ignore pretty much any armor save and do 6 damage a pop, with Vindicator-level durability (So T8 and an extra wound over Predators,) and it's slightly cheaper than a quad-Lascannon Predator.

However, I'm struggling to find a good role for either Sicaran. The regular version, with its autocannon, is... Alright, I guess, and can provide some AA, but the Rending mechanic isn't enough to make it really good at piercing armor, and considering how expensive it is, I'm inclined to just bring two Rifleman Dreads rather than bringing one of these. (Twice the shots, more wounds, all you really lose is the rending mechanic and minor AA ability.)
Similarly, the Punisher is... Actually not terrible when looking at pure Space Marines, all things considered, but since it gives itself an inbuilt "Re-roll 1's to hit" buff, it's not going to benefit from a nearby Captain, so it benefits less from being in a gunline.
Unfortunately, it competes in its role with a Leman Russ Punisher, which is just... Way, WAY better. Punisher Pask is slightly cheaper than a Sicaran Punisher, gets more than TWICE as many hits (There's no AP-1, but who gives a crap when you're getting twice as many hits,) is equally durable, and can also buff two other nearby tanks. So if you're taking a Sicaran Punisher, you are way, WAY overcharging compared to what allies could do.

The real question is what elite choices are you going to take alongside those relics? There aren't many good options unless you're willing to venture into the land of Apothecaries, Company Ancients, Techmarine Servitors, or maybe Imperium Assassins.

The Sicaran is nice for sure tho, but you can come close to replicating its firepower with Lascannon Predator + Razorback.

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

jcd386 wrote:

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

jcd386 wrote:

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.

Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

jcd386 wrote:

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.

Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.

That's a perfectly reasonable line of thought. Just mostly listing why someone would use the Devastators. Don't forget the nice Signum and Cherub too.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

jcd386 wrote:

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.

Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.

I am on similar page. My Devastators are always got shot by 10 Storn bolters from 5 Rhinos before they ever get to fire a shot, and more often than not I lost at least 2 from that 6-7 wounds even they are in terrain having. Also, if they get charged by things like Nurglings, they fall back and can only hit on 5+ rerolling 1s and 2s

So I am now considering spam Hellblasters and Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and run them near Guiliman, then take a 4 Lascannon Predator and put Telion on it, finally the Hellblasters will be carrired by the dakkadakka Repulsor so they can have better chances to get into 15 inch range. With this built, The only thing I have that would fear being silenced by charged is the Predator.

A side note, I also somehow prefer comtemptor dread than assault cannon razorback. Sure it has less firepower and 65% more expensive, but it has better BS so no hurt that bad by moving and 1 more Str, it also have Chapter Tactics, very strong in combat while the Razorback is as good as dead if being charged by anything.
What do you guys think?

Neophyte2012 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

jcd386 wrote:

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.

Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.

I am on similar page. My Devastators are always got shot by 10 Storn bolters from 5 Rhinos before they ever get to fire a shot, and more often than not I lost at least 2 from that 6-7 wounds even they are in terrain having. Also, if they get charged by things like Nurglings, they fall back and can only hit on 5+ rerolling 1s and 2s

So I am now considering spam Hellblasters and Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and run them near Guiliman, then take a 4 Lascannon Predator and put Telion on it, finally the Hellblasters will be carrired by the dakkadakka Repulsor so they can have better chances to get into 15 inch range. With this built, The only thing I have that would fear being silenced by charged is the Predator.

A side note, I also somehow prefer comtemptor dread than assault cannon razorback. Sure it has less firepower and 65% more expensive, but it has better BS so no hurt that bad by moving and 1 more Str, it also have Chapter Tactics, very strong in combat while the Razorback is as good as dead if being charged by anything.
What do you guys think?

I think that the unit you are looking for is the Contemptor Mortis dreadnought. It's slightly more expensive than a regular Contemptor (7pts more), but gets to take two Kheres Assault Cannons instead of just one, meaning it has the same firepower as the Razorback. Otherwise, it's effectively identical in most ways and has all the benefits you listed. (Oh, and it can take a Cyclone Missile Launcher, if you want.)

Alternatively, a regular Mortis Dreadnought with two plain Assault Cannons - Only 17pts more than the Razorback, same firepower, no diminishing damage chart. (Though 2w fewer making it slightly more fragile.) Benefits from Chapter Tactics, like all other dreads.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

I was quite fond of my lascannon Devastators when 8th came out, but they've been more and more sidelined in favor of lascannon Predators. My current firebase consists of two lacannon Predators and a rifleman Venerable Dreadnought, buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.

The reason the Devastators fell out of favor is their vulnerability. As a 5-man unit they are susceptible to both anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons due to the low model count, making it easy to reduce the squad's effectiveness. You can take additional Marines to compensate but that just drives up the cost. They do have their advantages though - the Signum and Cherub synergise really well for two first-turn shots at BS2+, they are easier to deploy in heavy terrain and they are far more capable of exploiting cover for a 2+ armor save.

I believe the important part is really in what the rest of your army looks like. What sorts of threats do you add to force the opponent to choose a target? If the opponent focuses fire, he should easily be able to take down a Predator/Dev Squad per turn and quickly dismantle your firebase. So what else are you threatening him with? If the maneuver part of your army is mostly vehicles/mechanized, maybe it would be smart to have a vehicle-heavy firebase as well. This forces the opponent to choose where to apply his (limited) anti-tank firepower. On the other hand, if you are mostly drop-podding or teleporting in infantry, an infantry-based firebase would strain the opponent's anti-personnel capacity. With the caveat that small squads of Devastators are still a good target for anti-tank weapons...

My firebase usually consists of some combination of 2 assault cannon Razorbacks, a Lascannon Razorback, 2 Predators, 2 Contemptors, or 2 Venerable Dreads with TL Lascannon and ML or TLAC. Buffed by a Raven Guard Chapter Master and Lt.

Sometimes supported by a couple of Stormtalons or a Knight.

I've been leaning towards Ven Dreads over Predators as the CT bonus is nice, but I think if I played UM the Predators would win out for being more efficient Lascannon platform.

If you are the playing Ultramarines the way you get an enemy to not charge your razorback(s) is to have Guilliman nearby.

Chronus leading a trio of Predators is My choice for anti tank. Chronus takes up a HQ slot and whatever his ride takes up, so go team!

 Crazyterran wrote:
If you are the playing Ultramarines the way you get an enemy to not charge your razorback(s) is to have Guilliman nearby.

Chronus leading a trio of Predators is My choice for anti tank. Chronus takes up a HQ slot and whatever his ride takes up, so go team!

I will be very very pleased if the thing charging into Razorback is Daemon Princes, Bloodthirster, Carnifex, Swarmlord, etc., Guiliman will finish most MC he encoutered no problem, I am also quite confident he can 1 VS 2 Daemon Princes which is roughly the same total points as him, and win easily in combat when he get to counter charged in.

However, in reality, the thing charged into razorbacks will be 3-4 units of 9 Nurglings, and maybe 3-4 Rhinos as well. They charged and silenced the Razorbacks while shielding the winged MCs at their back. For these tarpits, if Guiliman counter charged in, the opponent will firmly have the inititive at hand because now his MCs are free to finish off everything else the Ulramarine have.

 General Helstrom wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

I was quite fond of my lascannon Devastators when 8th came out, but they've been more and more sidelined in favor of lascannon Predators. My current firebase consists of two lacannon Predators and a rifleman Venerable Dreadnought, buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.

The reason the Devastators fell out of favor is their vulnerability. As a 5-man unit they are susceptible to both anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons due to the low model count, making it easy to reduce the squad's effectiveness. You can take additional Marines to compensate but that just drives up the cost. They do have their advantages though - the Signum and Cherub synergise really well for two first-turn shots at BS2+, they are easier to deploy in heavy terrain and they are far more capable of exploiting cover for a 2+ armor save.

I believe the important part is really in what the rest of your army looks like. What sorts of threats do you add to force the opponent to choose a target? If the opponent focuses fire, he should easily be able to take down a Predator/Dev Squad per turn and quickly dismantle your firebase. So what else are you threatening him with? If the maneuver part of your army is mostly vehicles/mechanized, maybe it would be smart to have a vehicle-heavy firebase as well. This forces the opponent to choose where to apply his (limited) anti-tank firepower. On the other hand, if you are mostly drop-podding or teleporting in infantry, an infantry-based firebase would strain the opponent's anti-personnel capacity. With the caveat that small squads of Devastators are still a good target for anti-tank weapons...

I think that last part is really the key to the equation. I'm running Devastators, usually two big squads (right now one 8 and one 10), and I love em. But I use them in an army where the only vehicles are Pods and a Rhino with a bunch of infantry otherwise. If I chose a predator (or two) for my Lascannons, every AT gun in my opponents army would just remove it. While a 10 man squad in cover will usually take more effort to begin degrading their firepower.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

jcd386 wrote:

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.

Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.

It's the alpha. You have them in the RBs, jump them out and unload turn one. It was better when less drops gave you first turn auto. It's a little less good now. But 4 lascannon devs are 165 points verse 190

Speaking of stuff that may be included in a gunline: Has anyone tried Rapier Carriers with Quad Launchers? The short range on the anti-tank fire seems like a problem, but it's a really cheap source of good volume of attacks, and the anti-infantry fire is... Not great, but at least better than the anti-infantry option on a regular Missile Launcher.

Plus, it's only 85pts, so compared to... Say, taking 4 Missile Launchers on a group of Devestators (which has about equivalent durability,) you're nearly half the cost. Seems worth the lack of range to me.

stratigo wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

jcd386 wrote:

Radikus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Radikus wrote:
When building for a Guilliman gunline why do people prefer to use Devs? Is it the standard synergy? I see the reason to take a few preds, but wouldn't dreads do the job better? No diminishing stats, good +hit on a venerable etc..

Who's using Devastators? I though common gunline loadouts were rifle-dreads and razorbacks? Rerolling those 8 S7 shots all doing multiple wounds is sweet.

The lists i've seen had been dev heavy, seemed odd, figured I was missing something. Do you use regular dreads, vens, what loadouts, just double AC?

I've been running Roboute with mostly tanks, since there isn't anything special about the durability of Ultramarine Infantry (unlike ravenguard or imperial fists), and predators tend to stick around longer for me. I've been using 2 las preds, 2 reg rifle dreads from the index, 1 rhino, and 2 assault cannon razorbacks to good effect. Everything in the army other than characters or scouts is T7 3+ save, which is nice redundancy as most lists can't do that much damage to that many tanks. I've also been toying with Celestine and assassins to distract / back up the list, and it's worked okay so far.

The nice part about the infantry is, if they cut through your meatshields, they can do the fallback and still fire at BS4+. That could partially be the reason why off the top of my head.

Yeah that is definitely possible. I just find the devastators lack of durability verses anything with at least -1 AP frustrating (fliers with heavy bolters just wreck them in my local meta), and I'm honestly not sure i've ever had a devastator squad get into combat and have enough guys left the next turn for the fall back and shoot to really matter. It's also a bit easier for me to keep vehicles in range of Roboute than a bunch of infantry, and i don't like having valuable targets in my army that are infantry and valuable targets that are tanks without some way to boost their durability, since it lets my opponent get good use of both their anti-tank and anti-infantry guns. So I much prefer to either go mostly infantry or mostly tanks if i can help it.

It's the alpha. You have them in the RBs, jump them out and unload turn one. It was better when less drops gave you first turn auto. It's a little less good now. But 4 lascannon devs are 165 points verse 190

Yeah i've toyed with that as well. I don't think it's bad or anything, but it does mean less tanks and more of a tank / infantry split throughout the course of the game. So i tend to go heavy tank with Roboute and heavy infantry with RG / Raptors and so on.

Alright, while we're talking about Preds I gotta bring up the Predator Autocannon. I know, that the Twin lascannon is supposed to mathematically be the better choice but in my local meta the Autocannon really sings VS certain T7 and below units. Dark Eldar transports being a prime example.

I know it's not a popular pick but damn they've done some work for me.

The predator autocannon really shines against Tyranids. Their T6 monsters really take a beating from the consistent 3 damage, and both the lascannon and autocannon wound on 3s against them. Plus; the invulnerables on the HQs negate more of the lascannon benefits. I suppose nids are a best case scenario for the autocannon, since it’s basically worse against everything T7 and above.

The Predator Autocannon also outshines the Lascannon against demons, which is noteworthy as Magnus and Morty are fairly likely to be seen.

I still think it needs a 5-10 point discount though.

I'd like the Autocannon a whole heckuva lot more if it were 4 shots instead of 2d3. I'm really unsure why they decided to randomize it, either - It's not a weapon that has ever had anything to do with blasts, and it's the only weapon of its variety that seems to have gotten that change.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'd like the Autocannon a whole heckuva lot more if it were 4 shots instead of 2d3. I'm really unsure why they decided to randomize it, either - It's not a weapon that has ever had anything to do with blasts, and it's the only weapon of its variety that seems to have gotten that change.

The average is 4 shots with the 2d3 so I don't think it matters so much. Sometimes you'll have 6 shots and sometimes 2. That's why we calculate the odds though, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'd like the Autocannon a whole heckuva lot more if it were 4 shots instead of 2d3. I'm really unsure why they decided to randomize it, either - It's not a weapon that has ever had anything to do with blasts, and it's the only weapon of its variety that seems to have gotten that change.

The average is 4 shots with the 2d3 so I don't think it matters so much. Sometimes you'll have 6 shots and sometimes 2. That's why we calculate the odds though, right?

Yes, but that's not my point. I'd take average reliability over occasional spikes and dips in difficulty any day, at least when I'm playing my marines. (If I want randomness, well... That's why I play Orks, and it's why I own a Shokk Attack Gun or four.)

Different question: assault units! I have a box of Vanguard Veterans and a box of Assault Terminators coming in today and I'm still wondering exactly how to build them.

For the Terminators I'm inclined to go full TH/SS. This gives them a clear purpose of pulping big, threatening things and makes them really good at it (with a Chaplain nearby).

For the Vanguards I'm thinking jump packs, three Thunder Hammers (one on the sergeant) and two Storm Shields with Chainswords as affordable 3+ invuln ablative wounds.

I may be missing out on something by not bringing lightning claws. I can see the appeal of an extra attack and re-rolling wounds, but the low damage output seems to limit them to mincing infantry squads and I have plenty of other ways to deal with those. I feel assault units are really useful for taking out heavy hitters like C'Tan or Stormsurges that resist ranged options.

Thoughts?

 General Helstrom wrote:
Different question: assault units! I have a box of Vanguard Veterans and a box of Assault Terminators coming in today and I'm still wondering exactly how to build them.

For the Terminators I'm inclined to go full TH/SS. This gives them a clear purpose of pulping big, threatening things and makes them really good at it (with a Chaplain nearby).

For the Vanguards I'm thinking jump packs, three Thunder Hammers (one on the sergeant) and two Storm Shields with Chainswords as affordable 3+ invuln ablative wounds.

I may be missing out on something by not bringing lightning claws. I can see the appeal of an extra attack and re-rolling wounds, but the low damage output seems to limit them to mincing infantry squads and I have plenty of other ways to deal with those. I feel assault units are really useful for taking out heavy hitters like C'Tan or Stormsurges that resist ranged options.

Thoughts?

I have tried five assault termies in a Stormraven and found that full TH+SS is terrible if the opponent can screen your termies with any form of 1W infantry. A regular AM infantry squad will only take ~5 casualties from your charge. One or two models with TLC gives you versatility, a slight discount and isn't a big problem in terms of overall durability. You can (to some degree) direct AP0/-1 damage to the TLC models and AP-2 or higher to the TH+SS models.

I have two autocannon preds, and they do wonder.
But recently I played against a lot of invu saves so...
I really enjoy having several shots, and you can always reroll them to have even more using a cp.
But they clearly lack firepower against armoured vehicles.

 godardc wrote:
I have two autocannon preds, and they do wonder.
But recently I played against a lot of invu saves so...
I really enjoy having several shots, and you can always reroll them to have even more using a cp.
But they clearly lack firepower against armoured vehicles.

Don't get me wrong. I love the predator autocannon but that just seems like a waste of CP.

I haven't been able to post for a couple weeks with the hurricane that hit down here, so if I bring up some other things we have mov d on from I apologize; just wanted to chime in.

Scouts vs Tacs vs Intercessors: I usually run a single squad, maybe two, of Intercessors and the rest scouts. I do this because I usually run a mobile Gunline. I start up a ways, retreat till I have won the initiative and then reverse and march up the field. What this does is give me a more durable front line that I am not upset if they are lost. Granted in my meta there are a lot of close ranged armies so that may have something to do with it. Tacs I only take when I don't have enough of a need to screen with scouts or Intercessors, so I use them to fill Razorbacks because I need three troops. Almost always either plasma/combi-plasma or Grav-cannon/combo-plasma. I also run my scouts as shotguns. Snipers I feel are only decent if you are willing to take 10+, and then they can be a good tool to force your opponent into certain positions and punish them if they don't comply.

Dreads vs Preds: I prefer Mortis Contemptors with 2 twin Lascannons over predators. Otherwise I like normal Contemptors from the codex with the Kheres and will run 2 as a good counter charge unit. Predators I do tend to favor the AC, but I always have enough Lascannons elsewhere because there are things the AC can't handle efficiently (unless you have 3 with the stratagem).

Infantry vs Armor: I tend to specialize in one or the other. Usually this is toward the infantry spectrum. This makes Devastators useful for me, but even so I will usually still take a Contemptor or maybe a couple rhino chassis vehicles. I do this to pull anti tank weapons from my Hellblasters and Centurions, and it usually wo is well. A good balanced army is more and mo e becoming a thing of the past I think. We really are in a situation so far this edition where being able to take anything is almost impossible, so being able to overload your opponent in a single area tends to win games. This being the case I like using a one two. Strong fire base with fast elements to hit th when I pull them out of position. If I am going vehicle based then this is dreads/Preds as a fire base with speeders and fliers as the fast moving to element. If I am using infant then I use devastators/Hellblasters/centurions as the fire base and deep strike terminators or Vanguard Vets as the quick element. The more often you can make your opponent play your game the better.

Most of my opinions are screwed of course, I play Raptors with RG tactics and Crimson Fists, so a lot of my strategies are VoLTE around that. Added durability with great deployment options in he former case, and good infantry fire base support with access to heavy hitting melee in the latter. Sternguard in particular are a vital part of my strategies b cause of their versatility. I always also have either Hellblasters or Centurions, so the rhino Primaris is good regardless, and the Sternguard bomb for IF/CF isn't all that hard to pull off, because Sternguard aren't generally seen as being as threatening as other choices.

sossen wrote:

 General Helstrom wrote:
Different question: assault units! I have a box of Vanguard Veterans and a box of Assault Terminators coming in today and I'm still wondering exactly how to build them.

For the Terminators I'm inclined to go full TH/SS. This gives them a clear purpose of pulping big, threatening things and makes them really good at it (with a Chaplain nearby).

For the Vanguards I'm thinking jump packs, three Thunder Hammers (one on the sergeant) and two Storm Shields with Chainswords as affordable 3+ invuln ablative wounds.

I may be missing out on something by not bringing lightning claws. I can see the appeal of an extra attack and re-rolling wounds, but the low damage output seems to limit them to mincing infantry squads and I have plenty of other ways to deal with those. I feel assault units are really useful for taking out heavy hitters like C'Tan or Stormsurges that resist ranged options.

Thoughts?

I have tried five assault termies in a Stormraven and found that full TH+SS is terrible if the opponent can screen your termies with any form of 1W infantry. A regular AM infantry squad will only take ~5 casualties from your charge. One or two models with TLC gives you versatility, a slight discount and isn't a big problem in terms of overall durability. You can (to some degree) direct AP0/-1 damage to the TLC models and AP-2 or higher to the TH+SS models.

While true, mix-matching is a terrible idea. Always focus on one goal. If you want bigger targets dead, go straight for all TH. If you want to kill screens, LC all the way.

That said, I think you can get away with LC on the Sergeant as he will have 4 attacks total. Not too shabby for a mere sergeant.