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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.


5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?

Spend on Sniper Rifles instead of cloaks.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.


5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?

Spend on Sniper Rifles instead of cloaks.


Hmm would the offensive "punch" from 4 sniper rifles make up for the lower survivability of the entire squad with lack of cloaks, would that make up for the missile launcher scout dying faster? I am not so sure.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.


5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?

Spend on Sniper Rifles instead of cloaks.


Hmm would the offensive "punch" from 4 sniper rifles make up for the lower survivability of the entire squad with lack of cloaks, would that make up for the missile launcher scout dying faster? I am not so sure.

You can basically deploy them in any cover on the board. The durability is fine.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot





Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.


5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?

No, because the LC has better S and AP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/16 15:04:48


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah I myself have to join the Las over missile launcher crowd. The extra ap and Strength are huge. Theres a good many t8 vehicles out there so being better able to wound them is a big deal and a ton of 3+ saves. When you use a lascannon they have a 6+ save and if its a missile launcher they get a 5+ which IMO is a big deal because they are twice as likely to make that save.

The versatility is also rather pointless imo. Say you fire a missile launcher at a crowd of boyz. You are getting d6 shots (lets assume 4) then you hit 66% of the time so lets again give it the benefit of the doubt and say 3 hits. Then you wound on 4s so that's 1.5 wounds. That's not all that better of a result then just firing a lascannon into them. Sure it would be better against t3 hordes, but I still do not see the loss of it value as a dedicated anti tank weapon being worth it. I could see taking one ML for the purposes of the stratagem, but thats it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/16 15:33:55


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Yeah we had a conversation about missile launchers a while back. Basically they are awful. Frag missiles are only better than lascannons against a minority of targets (really really soft stuff) and even then they aren't great. If your target is MEQ you'd be better off just zapping them.

Tacticals with a lascannon are quite useful. You get to spread your lascannons around, making it hard to disarm your army. They are strictly better than scouts with a missile launcher. The thing scouts do well is screen - but if you're screening why on earth would you buy them a heavy weapon?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.


5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?

No, because the LC has better S and AP.


True, but scouts can camp outside of deployment zone.

Surely the ability to do that is useful. Surely that opportunity comes up often enough in games?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/16 16:04:40


 
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot





Stavkat wrote:
 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.


5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?

No, because the LC has better S and AP.


True, but scouts can camp outside of deployment zone.

Surely the ability to do that is useful. Surely that opportunity comes up often enough in games?

LC and ML have 48" range. You can pretty much put them anywhere and they'll be able to hit something. Most of the time, the advantage of scouts moving out of the deployment zone, is that they're closer to the enemy to act as a screen/speed bump.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Or to camp on an objective from the start you otherwise could not do without the scouts.
   
Made in ca
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





I like scouts because they are cheap...and thats how I would run them, cheap as dirt and maybe one HB for the stratagem
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot





Stavkat wrote:
Or to camp on an objective from the start you otherwise could not do without the scouts.

Absolutely. I'm not saying this wouldn't come up in a game. I just think your points are better spent on the more flexible and powerful unit, TACs with a LC, than on a really specific niche build for scouts.

With that said, run whatever makes you happy. I use vanilla terminators and landraiders even though I know they're overpriced and other units can do the same job better.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Stavkat wrote:
Or to camp on an objective from the start you otherwise could not do without the scouts.

Absolutely. I'm not saying this wouldn't come up in a game. I just think your points are better spent on the more flexible and powerful unit, TACs with a LC, than on a really specific niche build for scouts.

With that said, run whatever makes you happy. I use vanilla terminators and landraiders even though I know they're overpriced and other units can do the same job better.


Yeah, I am conflicted, lol. I have a good idea for a kitbash snipers with cloaks, but heck, 5 of those guys are 90 points, the same price as a tac squad with a lascannon!

Maybe they can just be wearing *regular* cloaks, not camo cloaks to keep the costs down.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/16 17:21:43


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Stavkat wrote:
 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Stavkat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get away with the ML if you feel like it, but more the important thing is to never buy Camo Cloaks.


5 tacs with las cannon is very close in points to 5 scouts with cloaks with missile launcher.

For a camping unit, seems either way is fine, no?

No, because the LC has better S and AP.


True, but scouts can camp outside of deployment zone.

Surely the ability to do that is useful. Surely that opportunity comes up often enough in games?

Not enough that it's worth it. Like I said, with a camping unit like that, you could purchase the Sniper Rifle instead of the Cloaks, and their Bolters suddenly have better range with a mortal wound here and there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 -v10mega wrote:
I like scouts because they are cheap...and thats how I would run them, cheap as dirt and maybe one HB for the stratagem

This is the ultimate premise behind Scouts though. Keep them cheap with all the same weapon, a Combi-Weapon if you feel like, and deploy them where necessary. Simple and effective.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/16 18:21:10


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Tampa, FL

The biggest thing to think about with the Camo Cloaks is not if they make scouts better. they clearly do. Look at the Tac Marines that you are turning the scouts into. Are Tac Marines good? Basically no. There are fringe arguments against this but basically Tac Marines are worse than most other generic infantry from other factions... so why make scouts more expensive than them for little additional benefit? It is almost never worth it. That being said I also disagree with Missile Launchers on scouts in general. Scouts are for screening. If you have to go a heavy weapon take a Heavy Bolter. Otherwise stick with the free weapons. Snipers can be ok if you take at least 10 scouts with them, otherwise their impact is minimal.
   
Made in ua
Fresh-Faced New User




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Everyone is running gunline anyway. So too bad. Tyranids might shake things up a bit.
2. The average weapon that does multi-damage is on a D6, or 3.5 usually. You'd have to pass all those 6's. So basically you're gonna die.
3. Raven Guard have a MUCH better exclusive Strategem. The Iron Hands one is super garbage.


RG is fine in meta without many psykers. In our meta gunlne is not that prevelant.
Hordes and psykers are.
So in this case IH is much better, especially if you focus on maximizing wounds count. Also, redemptor dred with IH stratagem is much better, as it helps him to get into the range without losing firepower. Venerable drednoughts are also much more survivable with IH CT.
My librarian once survived 2 perils (causing 5 MW) in a row, losing only one at the end (yes, I rolled four 6s). in lat game my tactical marines survived 3 turns of CC with 20 or so poxwalkers just due to IH CT.
At the end, IH CT is more universal and can give you much needed survivability against psyker heavy lists liske GK and Deamons.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The fact you even made mention of Grey Knights as being dangerous with Smite means you don't know what you're talking about.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in pl
Horrific Howling Banshee




I came back to Warhammer. Stopped playing at the beginning of the 7th edition. Used to play Eldar. I'm playing SM right now. I really like my local gaming club, cause people are on the more competitive side of the game. No one is afraid of FW etc.

I've got a medium sized Raven Guard chapter, but I'm using a custom paint scheme, so I can really play as any chapter. These are the models I have:
Spoiler:
Lias Issodon
30 Sternguard (10 SIB, 12 combi-plasmas, 8 storm bolters)
2 Ven Dreads (twin lascannon, twin autocannon)
Chaplain Ven Dread (twin lascannon) this one can also be played as a regular dread



And the games are not going as well as I planned in my head before I got these models. And I like it. I like having a challenge. But winning is also a nice feeling
I want to expand my army to at least 2-2.5k points.

Since I'm more on the loosing side I figured, that splitting my detachment into 2 and adding Guillman would be beneficial.

Main Raven Guard detachment consisting of Lias and up to 30 Sternguard would stay. The other detachment would be Ultramarines consisting of those Dreads. 1 Chaplain Ven Dread and either:
A) 2 Ven Dreads and some additional Elite choice (not sure what)
B) using those Dreads as 2 Mortis Dreads (so they are a heavy choice) and some additional Heavy unit
C) Scout bikers look really good on paper
That all plus Guillman.

What I'm asking you is:
1) Is getting Guillman just for those 4 other Ultramarine units worth it?
2) What additional unit in either case A or B would you choose? Could be more than 1 unit.
3) Some other opinion/criticism

"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable" 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

So those 30 sternguard look like an incredible glass cannon to me. They are really expensive compared to their durability. That's where you're going wrong, in my opinion.

I don't think Sternguard combo all that well with your CTs - because they want to come close-ish to things to rapid fire. The units that benefit most are intercessors, assault hellblasters, shooty dreads and (for the stratagem) aggressors.

I do realise that Lias comes with RG CTs and there's nothing you can do about that. But if you've demonstrated to yourself that doesn't work then you need to change your approach.

Right now Guilliman is at his best in a blob of shooty stuff like razorbacks. He'd require an almost totally different army list from you. I'm not sure it's where I'd look to next if I were you.

Mortis dreads are certainly very good for anyone using ravenguard CTs. They're probably the optimal lascannon mount you can take. Lascannons are good.

I'm afraid the overall outcome of all of that is that I think you'll need to significantly revise our army to make it work well.
   
Made in pl
Horrific Howling Banshee




You make some good points. Initially I wanted to have more units in reserves, but after last game against a DG player (and a sea of poxwalkers) I'm more inclined to field more units on board. Especially some with long range anti-infantry shooting. But there are still many armies I haven't faced, so I guess more play testing is required.

Those sterns tend to kill about half of their points on arrival (more or less, depends heavily) and then get tied in CC or get shot if they haven't killed enough.

What are some go-to SM long range anti-infantry shooting units? I feel that my only anti-horde shooting are those 8 Storm bolters and they are far from enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 17:38:37


"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





One thing I've seen in a lot of tourny lists is consistency in the durability of all but the biggest guns.

If every target is a Rhino hull, or every target is 5 PA guys with 1 or 2 good guns, the opponent can't focus down your heavy hitters instead of your troops.

Consider going up against a 3x5man Tacs w/nothing and 5man Dev with 4 Grav Cannons vs going up against 4x5man Tacs each with a Grav Cannon. Slightly less firepower in the second group (no signum), but the Devs in the first group will get wiped out much faster than the Grav Cannons that got spread out in the second group. Same overall durability, but much easier to play against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 17:50:41


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Long-ranged high volume firepower isn’t really something that exists in the marine codex. Fortunately, there are close-ranged options with immense firepower. But you’re going to have to get to within 12 or 18”.

Aggressors and Inceptors are rumoured to be getting a substantial price cut in chapter approved. As I mentioned before, Aggressors are a phenomenal unit to use with strike from the shadows. Setting up 17” from a blob you want removed will let off a stupid number of shots – 19 from each guy. If the unit your murdering is a screen then you can be closer – so long as you’re going first.

The other really good option is to take hurricane bolters. This is part of the reason you see so many storm ravens around the place. However, as a ravenguard player, the 24 shots a raven can fire doesn’t look so awesome next to the 19 each that aggressors have. After chapter approved you’ll be able to get something like 9 aggressors for the price of each storm raven.

In terms of tactics I think you always want to hit your opponent as hard as possible on turn 1. You don’t want to be spending time moving into position and you definitely don’t want units off the board in your first shooting phase. So take things like mortis dreads that can kill priority targets from far away without caring about screens.

In terms of screening units of your own I think you could do an awful lot worse than Intercessors. Raven guard ones in cover are very difficult to make go away. SFTS means you really don’t need scouts infiltrating, as you can just send some far tougher intercessors. They are also rumoured to be coming down in cost.

I'll admit that I tend to prefer primaris stuff, which is why most of the units I've mentioned are Primaris. But actually I think their rules are better designed for 8th and they are more capable of doing the job you need done.
   
Made in pl
Horrific Howling Banshee




I've just read the Chapter Approved leaks. They look really good for us. I've loved the way Agressors look right from the start. Now there's even more of a reason to buy myself 1 big unit.

Inceptors also don't look half bad. 270 points for 12 heavy bolter rounds, is rather good. Their low survivability and high movement potential reminds me of Warp Spiders. With Issodon's reroll they get 21 wounds with AP-1 on T4 targets.

I'm thinking on how to incorporate Agressors into my army. In case I'm first this looks easy.
Drop Aggressors just before first turn. Is there a good place for Sternguards on board? If yes, deep strike them first turn. If no, deepstrike them second turn cause Aggressors have most likely got rid off anything that could have potentially blocked Sternguards. When deepstriking Sternguard, try to also have Aggressors 6" from the Lias for those rerolls.

In case I'm second this doesn't look that great. There isn't always a huge LOS blocking piece of terrain just 24-29" from the enemy force. What do you propose in this situation? Well, in case I face some kind of slow moving DG this isn't that big of a deal, but I imagine Harlequinns, Tyranids or any heavy shooting army will pose a threat to Aggressors anyway. That is, before they have a chance to shoot.

"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable" 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Against a zerging enemy you can use aggressors totally differently. Set them up a fair distance behind your screens. When the enemy hits your screen you can fall the survivors back and use the aggressors to gun the enemy down - then potentially to counter charge.

This is a bit of a waste of strike from the shadows of course.

I don’t think I’d use as many sternguard as you are. Actually personally I’d use 0, but if you really want to use Lias they aren’t dreadful. But having a serious number of guys off the board until turn 2 really is a problem. I suggest using just one unit, then using Lias’ other units as grab devastator or somryiikng like that. You can also use the sternguard stratagem on one of the units.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sternguard actually work pretty decently as a Grav Cannon delivery system when used with Lias. I do x3 squads of 8 with two Grav Cannons each. Pretty darn pricy but I feel it's pretty worth it against Guard. You ignore their saves and hopefully do enough damage to any tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should clarify that you ignore Guard saves with the Bolters and then shoot the tanks with the Cannons. Just in case of confusion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/22 01:14:49


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sternguard actually work pretty decently as a Grav Cannon delivery system when used with Lias. I do x3 squads of 8 with two Grav Cannons each. Pretty darn pricy but I feel it's pretty worth it against Guard. You ignore their saves and hopefully do enough damage to any tanks.

I should clarify that you ignore Guard saves with the Bolters and then shoot the tanks with the Cannons. Just in case of confusion.

This is a good suggestion. Wouldn't it be better to set them up with SFTS though, rather than deep striking them with Lias? I guess his rerolls do help make them hit more, even with -1.

I think that a single unit of Sternguard is pretty good, thanks to the stratagem (which also works brilliantly with grav). But I think more than one unit will give you diminishing returns. Any extra units after the first won't be able to use the stratagem and may be short on targets to kill.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






RIP Girlyman. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/22/get-ready-for-chapter-approved-matched-play-updates-nov-22gw-homepage-post-3/
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Mandragola wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sternguard actually work pretty decently as a Grav Cannon delivery system when used with Lias. I do x3 squads of 8 with two Grav Cannons each. Pretty darn pricy but I feel it's pretty worth it against Guard. You ignore their saves and hopefully do enough damage to any tanks.

I should clarify that you ignore Guard saves with the Bolters and then shoot the tanks with the Cannons. Just in case of confusion.

This is a good suggestion. Wouldn't it be better to set them up with SFTS though, rather than deep striking them with Lias? I guess his rerolls do help make them hit more, even with -1.

I think that a single unit of Sternguard is pretty good, thanks to the stratagem (which also works brilliantly with grav). But I think more than one unit will give you diminishing returns. Any extra units after the first won't be able to use the stratagem and may be short on targets to kill.

SFTS should be used on something that isn't going to be able to Deep Strike or get close in the first place. My thoughts for that are things like Aggressors and Assault Centurions. Maybe Assault Terminators if you got enough Scouts to help out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Meh who cares?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/22 17:01:25


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Guilliman is going up by about 25 points, which is probably a lot less than he deserves. Reports of his death have been greatly exaggerated.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK



Cool might pick one up cheap on ebay then

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Mandragola wrote:
Guilliman is going up by about 25 points, which is probably a lot less than he deserves. Reports of his death have been greatly exaggerated.

Which is gonna add up with Razorbacks increasing in price.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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