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Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.

Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.

Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!

Devs/dreads/aggressors in some combination. Something to deep strike in front of the agressors to keep them alive so they can keep double tapping. Maybe Reivers or Scoutbikes.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.

Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!

Devs/dreads/aggressors in some combination. Something to deep strike in front of the agressors to keep them alive so they can keep double tapping. Maybe Reivers or Scoutbikes.

Aggressors using Strike from the Shadows? How about using Shrike + Assault Squads?

What is a common Dev load? Las?

And for Dreads, anything specific or just any? I don't care for the new one, but some FW ones are pretty sexy.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Xiber wrote:
Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?

I’ve run 10 (2 units of 5) dropping with either Shrike or a TH/SS captain in a couple of tournaments. They make a fun and effective alphastrike if the opponent doesn’t screen. Typically I was taking out an important backfield vehicle or two (ravager, shooty dread) or character on the drop with the shooting, and losing about 0-1 models to overheat with the rerolls.

Then, unlike scions, after the drop they can sometimes charge into melee with something—especially using Shrike’s assault reroll. They still get 2 attacks each in melee, but more importantly if you trap something that can’t fly away, then you’re safe from shooting until your next turn when you can fall back and shoot again.

But there are too many random factors to make it a reliable competitive unit. Mostly if your opponent does any kind of screening, then that severly limits the damage you can do. And by dropping like that, the vanguards make themselves the priority target for all return fire. The unit is expensive, at 160 each with 10 pistols, for 1-wound models that die pretty easily. The rerolls are absolutely essential—one time I took a chance dropping a unit of 5 in a tiny corner spot without the captain, and four cooked themselves (one of the four rolled double ones and cooked himself twice).

But it is super-fun and characterful for RG as a unit to play in casual games. Currently I’m also putting together a unit of VV with dual grav pistols to throw in the mix.

Making a Vanguard vet unit like this feels kind of sacrilegious when Plasma Inceptors exist, for basically this exact purpose.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Hey folks. What does a competitive Raven Guard list look like nowadays? I have a TON of Marine stuff just gathering dust and need a project I can get pumped about.

Would appreciate some input before I get working on lists!

An RG army with a big gun line component could work nicely. That -1 to hit when enemies shoot at you is pretty sweet!

Las is good, stick one in a 5 man tac squad, stick a few in a dev squad.

Ven Dread good for gunline as will. Twin Las and either auto cannon or missile.

Xiber wrote:
Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?

Plasma slingers sound super cool though as vanguard id probably make maybe 2 of them storm shield and some power weapon. (probably one the sarge to benefit from the bonus attack) that way you can tank some of the bigger shots on them while also doing a bit of damage in CC still AND shooting more plasma in the subsequent shooting phase if they haven't run off like weenies.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Um, I'm seeing that the Dread can't always be in melee, and that rerolling 1's to hit isn't worth the price compared to getting a gun.

You get guns with the fists. Guns that hit on 2s when moving instead of 3s, and the rerolls to hit also effects those guns, meaning that if the dread is moving, those guns statistically do similar damage to the heavy weapons, while also enhancing the dreads melee damage.

2s rerolling 1s to hit means you should almost always (97%) be getting 2 overcharge plasma hits out of the fist.

Compare;

Plasma blastgun 2x S8 AP3 D2 hits
Twin Autocannon 2.64x S7 AP1 D2 hits
Heavy Plasma 1.32x S8 AP3 D2 hits
Twin HB 4x S5 AP1 D1 hits
Kheres 4x S7 AP1 D1 hits
MM .66x S8 AP4 Dd6 hits
Twin las 1.32x S9 AP4 Dd6 hits

So you get more damage on the drop against light infantry with the kheres/HB (Probably 3-4 dead vs 2 with GEQ), and if you're building the dread to face light infantry you're best off taking 2x heavy flamers because you'll pick up more than either with overwatch alone. Heavier infantry the extra AP on the blastgun means more consistent kills, and the flat 2 damage means they can chunk multi-wound units or even characters if you can get a proper drop or clear screens.

Against vehicles the Plasma blastgun is better than anything except the las. T7 3+ twin las averages 2.6 dmg to plasmas 2.1 dmg, T8 3+ it's 2.6 vs 1.6. So, on average, you will do one more damage to a leman russ with the lascannon over the plasma blastgun.

Meanwhile you also have the rerolls on your other fist weapon, and your melee attacks.

Again, what I'm saying is that you do not lose much shooting efficiency while gaining melee efficiency, and the only gun that does more consistent damage vs notable targets cost 19 pts more.

The guns that come with the fists are either pea shooters (I don't need another Storm Bolter), or prohibitively expensive (the Heavy Flamer is the biggest offender in this instance). Plasma Blastgun is an exception though.

However, which that gun you're paying for another fist. If they're too expensive they'll be shot and won't have shot anything because of the short range nature of the weapons on the fists. That's mostly why I've been a big proponent of the Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist.

 ultimentra wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Xiber wrote:
Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?

I’ve run 10 (2 units of 5) dropping with either Shrike or a TH/SS captain in a couple of tournaments. They make a fun and effective alphastrike if the opponent doesn’t screen. Typically I was taking out an important backfield vehicle or two (ravager, shooty dread) or character on the drop with the shooting, and losing about 0-1 models to overheat with the rerolls.

Then, unlike scions, after the drop they can sometimes charge into melee with something—especially using Shrike’s assault reroll. They still get 2 attacks each in melee, but more importantly if you trap something that can’t fly away, then you’re safe from shooting until your next turn when you can fall back and shoot again.

But there are too many random factors to make it a reliable competitive unit. Mostly if your opponent does any kind of screening, then that severly limits the damage you can do. And by dropping like that, the vanguards make themselves the priority target for all return fire. The unit is expensive, at 160 each with 10 pistols, for 1-wound models that die pretty easily. The rerolls are absolutely essential—one time I took a chance dropping a unit of 5 in a tiny corner spot without the captain, and four cooked themselves (one of the four rolled double ones and cooked himself twice).

But it is super-fun and characterful for RG as a unit to play in casual games. Currently I’m also putting together a unit of VV with dual grav pistols to throw in the mix.

Making a Vanguard vet unit like this feels kind of sacrilegious when Plasma Inceptors exist, for basically this exact purpose.

I see your point, but I've been using these models before there were primaris marines. Also I'm not sure, but even with the new price break, don't plas inceptors still cost more? I know they're slower--sometimes that extra 2" makes all the difference.

8th edition has also let me add a unit of SftS melee vets (3 fists, 2 stormshields, because fists are now cheap and I had some now-useless assault marine pfist sergeants). I send them in with a powerfist chaplain for rerolls to offset the -1 to hit.

Also having a melee vanguard vet unit and two shooty units working together keeps me from being tempted to spend more points on the gunslinger vets. Experimentation shows that anything that I put in the unit that replaces a plasma shot (like storm shields or melee weapons) decreases the effect of the alpha strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also also I'm planning to experiment with assault marine squads, each with 3 plasma pistols (one on the sergeant). I'm thinking that the 21 points worth of pistols might make a weak unit into a credible bully/harassment unit at a budget price compared with the gunslinger vanguards.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The guns that come with the fists are either pea shooters (I don't need another Storm Bolter), or prohibitively expensive (the Heavy Flamer is the biggest offender in this instance). Plasma Blastgun is an exception though.

However, which that gun you're paying for another fist. If they're too expensive they'll be shot and won't have shot anything because of the short range nature of the weapons on the fists. That's mostly why I've been a big proponent of the Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist.

This is the point I was making. The second fist only costs 10 pts now. It's 30pts cheaper than it was. So fist+gun is, at most, 31 pts, cheaper than twin las, and in the ballpark as many of the other guns.

In the context of drop pod BT dreads, it's a pretty solid loadout.

Hi gents. I am trying to put up a competitive Crimson Fists list and wanna know what other CF players uses in their army with 8th edition? I have lots of minis and planning to buy new ones after preparing a decent list.

Would appreciate some input before making GW richer!!!

 yasarkasaba wrote:
Hi gents. I am trying to put up a competitive Crimson Fists list and wanna know what other CF players uses in their army with 8th edition? I have lots of minis and planning to buy new ones after preparing a decent list.

Would appreciate some input before making GW richer!!!

I play crimson fists myself. Some thoughts:

The relic is really good. Give your captain a power fist. I've got the Primaris guy with a fist, and he's great for his cost.

On the other hand, disregard our warlord trait entirely. It'll never happen. Take literally any other warlord trait before it.

As a rule, you want to have infantry that provide dakka and vehicles that provide anti-tank - if you're using vehicles much at all. The chapter tactic is really specific to killing infantry because vehicles almost never get cover anyway, so you want to make sure that your infantry killers benefit from the CT. Units like inceptors with assault bolters are great for gunning down enemy troops, devastator squads and things like that. Intercessors actually benefit quite a lot, as they are able to whittle down those skulking enemy scoring units over a few turns. A CT intercessor's bolt rifle is three times as likely to kill a MEQ in cover than a normal bolt gun that doesn't ignore cover.

You can also totally ignore bolter drill, unless you somehow find yourself with more CTs than you know what to do with (which will not happen so...). It simply doesn't generate enough shots to justify a CT.

Good units are:

- Intercessors
- Inceptors
- Tanks with lascannons on - repulsors, predators, sicaran venators, mortis dreadnoughts
- Contemptor dreadnoughts (ignores cover on its dakka guns, is cheap, hits like a train)
- Hellblasters, if you've taken a repulsor - which you probably should as a place to put hellblasters, characters, and lascannons.

As Mandragola says

We get most of our CT value out of dudes.
and our strats involve bolters

if you are not going super competitive, sternguard combining with kill shot and bolter drill is funny.

For CF I love using Pedro with Assault Centurions. Either LR Crusader or a Storm Raven for delivery. Hell, sometimes I even run 6 on foot with an Apothecary behind them too. Past that I usually make a Bolter Drill bait unit. A large Centurion squad like above or Sternguard usually get this honor for me, and I back it up with a Lieutenant and a Rhino Primaris. The rest is pretty much up to you and what you want to do. I love the Relic, but usually take Storm of Fire as my WL trait to maximize the Bolter damage. My current list is a mechanized one where I am running triple Vindis, Plasma/grav Tacs in Rhinos, a big Sterngaurd squad and the Centurions

Thanks guys for the valuable feedbacks. I am planning to by inceptors and a contemptor but got a few question marks.

- Mandragola how many inceptors do you use? also is it worth adding a jump pack captain with a storm shield to suck some blows and giving buff?
- Which load out do you use on contemptor and how many do you use in your lists?
- las-predator or 5 man las-devs? I find las-devs really useful but never try a predator in this addition.
- I like hellblasters but do not have a ride for them and not planning to have in short-term. Has anyone tried them footsloggin?
- I always taught that intercessors are good only for securing objectives in your own lines because they have no ride and footslogging is generally not an option for them but maybe i am wrong. How do you guys use them?
- Desubot i love sterns too but i generally used them for alpha strike in previous editions. I can not find place for them right now because of expensive drop-pods.
- Captain Garius I really love Pedro and i tried to use him but his warlord trait is real crap and i cant use him effectively. How do you guys use him or do you entirely skip chapter master thing.
- I tried rhino primaris in my two lists but it did not live long enough generally to see the second turn and with that much points it really sucks.
- I generally play mechanized right now but with increased razorback points, i dont know what to do. I had 2 and bought 2 more but with the point increase in chapter approved, i wished i waited a little bit more :/

Also what do you think about bikes and flyers. I do not use any flyer in my list. I tried to use bikes but it was a disappointment for me comparing with previous additions.

And last question is about librarians and apothecary. I hate psykers. What do you think of them and apothecary worth the points?

I actually make my Lieutenant the Warlord with Storm of Fire even when I have Pedro there too. I agree that his trait sucks.

Contemptors I run with the Kheres unless you are doing the FW variant. Then the sky is the limit. There are a lot of good options.

Speaking of FW, if you are running those models I would do Mortis Dreads, either regular or Contemptor pattern, instead of the devs or preds. Without FW it is kind of 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Devs will ignore cover, but Lascannons aren't usually shooting at things in cover, and Preds are generally more resilient. Your call.

I run Hellblasters on foot. Usually 10 with a Rhino Primaris and an apothecary. They melt through everything and have decent enough range. The apothecary is optional and I only take him if I need to fill out a Vanguard detachment

Usually I run my Intercessors in front of them as a screen. Same speed, same durability, and they are decent in melee. I use scouts for objectives generally since they get there easily in deployment.

Playing mech it is all about managing threat. If you take the Preds or Dreads then a lot of the anti tank your opponent has will focus those before the Rhino Primaris. Tech Marines are great if you are running lots of vehicles.

I don't run flyers either, but the Storm Raven is good. Bikes can be good but take restraint to use. I only ever take them in squads of 3 with matching specials and combi. Either flamers or Melta. They can advance and pop shots at something, and then before they die retreat them to grab late objectives. Not necessary but can be a good tool.

Librarians are good if you have a melee unit and/or a melee dread. Smite is decent, but without it being en mass is nothing special. Denying is great. Use the re-roll charge and fight first power on a strong melee unit and use the Might of Heroes (or whatever it's called) on a dread or melee character and they will do well for you. The Null Zone power is amazing, but unreliable and hard to position so don't count on it.

 yasarkasaba wrote:
Thanks guys for the valuable feedbacks. I am planning to by inceptors and a contemptor but got a few question marks.

Garius has answered a number of your questions already so I won’t double up. What he says is correct.

 yasarkasaba wrote:
- Mandragola how many inceptors do you use? also is it worth adding a jump pack captain with a storm shield to suck some blows and giving buff?

The most I’ve used so far is 3. I haven’t played since they got their price cut – RL issues!
It’s absolutely not worth a jump pack captain for the assault bolter guys. It may possibly be worth it for plasma ones – but then you’re putting their price up by a huge amount.
And anyway he cannot soak up attacks from the inceptors. Characters are not able to tank for units in any way any more.
- Which load out do you use on contemptor and how many do you use in your lists?

 yasarkasaba wrote:
- las-predator or 5 man las-devs? I find las-devs really useful but never try a predator in this addition.

Either is fine and there are loads of FW options too – Mortis dreads and Sicaran Venators both look good. You can also stick your AT weapons on flyers if you like. To be honest these options seem pretty similar.
The issue with vehicles is that you should either have a decent number of them or none. If you field just a repulsor, a contemptor or whatever, then it won’t ever perform that well because it will be killed very fast. If you had a couple of dreadnoughts, a repulsor, a predator or two and a stormraven then some of them would live long enough to do stuff.
This is one of the reasons why I put all my lascannons on vehicles and wouldn’t use devastators. They aren’t a bad unit but they don’t combo well with my repulsor. If my opponent wanted to disarm my AT he could fire his AT at my repulsor and gun down my devastators with heavy bolters and stuff. If I have two tanks instead then his heavy bolters can’t be used to disarm me – or at least not as efficiently.

 yasarkasaba wrote:
- I like hellblasters but do not have a ride for them and not planning to have in short-term. Has anyone tried them footsloggin?

 yasarkasaba wrote:
- I always taught that intercessors are good only for securing objectives in your own lines because they have no ride and footslogging is generally not an option for them but maybe i am wrong. How do you guys use them?

That’s part of it, certainly, but they are also a great screening unit and they can kill stuff in their own right. They are dramatically better in cc than our other troop options, with double the attacks and double the wounds of a tactical squad.

 yasarkasaba wrote:
- Captain Garius I really love Pedro and i tried to use him but his warlord trait is real crap and i cant use him effectively. How do you guys use him or do you entirely skip chapter master thing.

 yasarkasaba wrote:
- I generally play mechanized right now but with increased razorback points, i dont know what to do. I had 2 and bought 2 more but with the point increase in chapter approved, i wished i waited a little bit more :/

Yeah honestly I don’t have an answer for you here. I don’t use them and haven’t ever, really.

 yasarkasaba wrote:
Also what do you think about bikes and flyers. I do not use any flyer in my list. I tried to use bikes but it was a disappointment for me comparing with previous additions.

Storm ravens are decent – though now their price is increased they are no-longer a must take. A Xiphon is a very good AT platform, and excellent for killing planes, though as with the SR its price is now reasonably, rather than outrageously cheap. Hover mode is really useful and I prefer the flyers that have it, not least because it’s often very useful to be able to charge enemy units. If you’re up against a gunline then charging a tank on turn 1 and then consolidating into a second one can be excellent – though it can also result in you losing your plane!

 yasarkasaba wrote:
And last question is about librarians and apothecary. I hate psykers. What do you think of them and apothecary worth the points?

Librarians are pretty good. Null zone is a vital ability to have, or at least an incredibly useful one. Smite is also great and might of heroes can do good things too. For instance if you make a contemptor S and T8 then a lot more things need 6s to wound (or 4s instead of 5s) – and it gets another attack too.

For my Crimson Fists, I give Storm of Fire to my Captain with the Fist of Vengeance. He runs around with Pedro and a Lieutenant, a pair of Honour Guard, and an Apothecary. Pedro's Goon Squad, as my buddy calls it, is pretty adept at ripping stuff apart. I generally get good results with them. They ride around in my Rhino Primaris for the first turn to help them get moved up a little. I don't like leaving them out in the open.

So, with the price hike of the Assault Cannon Razorbacks, are Lascannons a better choice now? I don't have a ton of long range weapons in my army. I figure a pair of Lascannon Razorbacks are a better choice than the Assault Cannons.

I forgot to touch on the Razors. I was using 3 for a while but found that it wasn't as convenient with how I wanted to run my lists. They are great, but I have started getting my anti-infantry elsewhere. With them getting a price increase I likely won't use them anymore. I have a decent amount of Rhino chassis (I think like 7-8) but I end up using them as all sorts of things. You can do some crafty conversions to make them into preds and rhinos if you decide that you don't like the new profile.

Assbacks only increased 14pts which is hardly a game changer. They still remain a great anti-everything unit that helps keep some troop tax protected.

Predators and Intercessors getting slightly cheaper is nice. Intercessors saving 10 points alone is a good game changer for such a troop choice. Sadly Tactical Marines look even worse but that might as well not be a unit entry.

 buddha wrote:
Assbacks only increased 14pts which is hardly a game changer. They still remain a great anti-everything unit that helps keep some troop tax protected.

That is kind of what my dilemma has been. Assaultbacks do their job very well, but I am thinking that I am going to need more than just one squad of four Lascannon Devastators to throw some long range shooting downfield. But Assaultbacks can move and shoot and not skip a beat, so I still might just keep them since their effective range is still pretty good (just not quite as good as the Laserbacks when they sit still).

Speaking of Razorbacks, I've finally had time to look at replacing some of mine with dreadnoughts for my RG list. Still having some dilemma here, as even with the price increase, they are still among the most efficient vehicles, not to mention the carrying capacity. And yeah, they won't live as long as a dread, but a dread costs 1.5x as much or more, which reduces the list's model and gun count. But, I would like to break my parking lot style and getting tactics on my vehicles would be cool...So, I'm thinking I'll cut from 5 Razorbacks to 2 and replace those ~300 points with 2 dreads. Unless you think this would be an even worse idea to mix the 2, then the question is, which dread model?

Without a total list retool, the dreads would still be more anti infantry role as I've got lascannons and plasma elsewhere, so I was looking mostly at the various assault, Kheres, and auto cannon variants. Let me know if you disagree with this unit assessment (for simplicity of comparison vs a Razorback I assumed the -1 to hit RG ability would negate 25% of shots). First off, the didn't make its:

Mortis Dreadnought - It's a dread Razorback. RG players could go either way, but I already own the tanks. However, this would likely be a contender for an AT dread slot.

Regular Dread - Beaten in survivability and firepower per point by the Venerable. 100% skip.

Relic Deredeo - Has the excellent per point metrics I've come to expect from a Forgeworld. Very tempting, but it'd be way too obvious a lone target in my list and I can't afford 2.

Redemptor - Too expensive and degrading BS3. Rather use the Deredeo.

Relic Contemptor - Best survival metrics and 9" move, but firepower per point is near the bottom. I'd strongly consider if using them for CC as well, but too spendy for fire support.

Which leaves my top 2 considerations:

Venerable - Nondegrading stats and not counting as a 10W model for scoring are joined to excellent firepower per point. Downside is it's one of the lowest in terms of survivability per point. Not that much worse, but it's still lower than the Razorback.

Contemptor Mortis - Degrading BS2, 9" move, excellent survival and high firepower per point. Probably would be my top pick.

...If I owned any. I still need to juggle the points around, but short term result is I'm likely replacing 3 Razors with 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

Well are you running any special characters?

The Minotaurs Dread would be neato.

I didn't know Minotaurs could use RG tactics...Or that they had a special dread. Will check that out.

bort wrote:
Speaking of Razorbacks, I've finally had time to look at replacing some of mine with dreadnoughts for my RG list. Still having some dilemma here, as even with the price increase, they are still among the most efficient vehicles, not to mention the carrying capacity. And yeah, they won't live as long as a dread, but a dread costs 1.5x as much or more, which reduces the list's model and gun count. But, I would like to break my parking lot style and getting tactics on my vehicles would be cool...So, I'm thinking I'll cut from 5 Razorbacks to 2 and replace those ~300 points with 2 dreads. Unless you think this would be an even worse idea to mix the 2, then the question is, which dread model?

Without a total list retool, the dreads would still be more anti infantry role as I've got lascannons and plasma elsewhere, so I was looking mostly at the various assault, Kheres, and auto cannon variants. Let me know if you disagree with this unit assessment (for simplicity of comparison vs a Razorback I assumed the -1 to hit RG ability would negate 25% of shots). First off, the didn't make its:

Mortis Dreadnought - It's a dread Razorback. RG players could go either way, but I already own the tanks. However, this would likely be a contender for an AT dread slot.

Regular Dread - Beaten in survivability and firepower per point by the Venerable. 100% skip.

Relic Deredeo - Has the excellent per point metrics I've come to expect from a Forgeworld. Very tempting, but it'd be way too obvious a lone target in my list and I can't afford 2.

Redemptor - Too expensive and degrading BS3. Rather use the Deredeo.

Relic Contemptor - Best survival metrics and 9" move, but firepower per point is near the bottom. I'd strongly consider if using them for CC as well, but too spendy for fire support.

Which leaves my top 2 considerations:

Venerable - Nondegrading stats and not counting as a 10W model for scoring are joined to excellent firepower per point. Downside is it's one of the lowest in terms of survivability per point. Not that much worse, but it's still lower than the Razorback.

Contemptor Mortis - Degrading BS2, 9" move, excellent survival and high firepower per point. Probably would be my top pick.

...If I owned any. I still need to juggle the points around, but short term result is I'm likely replacing 3 Razors with 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

So I think re-designing other areas of your list might be necessary if you're going to use the best dreadnought options. You should avoid taking bad dreadnoughts (or anything bad at all) to fit with other stuff.

Twin lascannons are excellent on dreadnoughts because they are the only one of the only twin weapons they get. So mortis dreadnoughts (or contemptor mortis) with lascannons are a great choice for ravenguard. The contemptor in particular hits on a 2+, has an invulnerable and looks really cool as a bonus.

A straight replacement for the razorback could be a mortis dreadnought with quad heavy bolters. It's only 109 points but gets CTs and chucks out loads of dakka. I've only just "discovered" this option for myself but it looks pretty legitimate. My crimson fists could definitely find a use for one or two of these for the purpose of gunning down infantry in cover. It might not be quite so awesome for ravenguard but it's still pretty decent I think. It's basically a razorback with a better range and CTs - but no transport capacity.

Quad autocannons are a cool option too - less good against infantry but good if you need some help finishing off a vehicle. You can also put autocannons on a standard dreadnought (using the points from the index), which is an elite choice rather than heavy and costs 5 points less than a Mortis.

Contemptor dreadnoughts are excellent. You won't have the firepower of your razorbacks but would replace it with the ability to deal great damage in cc.

Finally a simple 5 man devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is only 105 points - basically the same as the dread. There isn't much to choose between them I think.

bort wrote:


I didn't know Minotaurs could use RG tactics...Or that they had a special dread. Will check that out.

I don't think they can. The statement "every unit in that Detachment is drawn from the same Chapter" seems to imply that. The Minotaurs have the Minotaur Chapter listed and no option to be Raven Guard, so they would negate your CTs for that detachment.

You're supposed to follow the parent chapter ala Crimson Fists per FW. Minotaurs don't have one so you get to choose until we have an official one or they tell us what to choose.

It doesn't make much sense but it's something to do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're supposed to follow the parent chapter ala Crimson Fists per FW. Minotaurs don't have one so you get to choose until we have an official one or they tell us what to choose.

It doesn't make much sense but it's something to do.

That would be the second paragraph that I somehow forgot existed mentioning using the parent Chapter's tactics.

Jeez, I either need more sleep or more coffee.

Mandragola wrote:

bort wrote:
....

So I think re-designing other areas of your list might be necessary if you're going to use the best dreadnought options. You should avoid taking bad dreadnoughts (or anything bad at all) to fit with other stuff.

Twin lascannons are excellent on dreadnoughts because they are the only one of the only twin weapons they get. So mortis dreadnoughts (or contemptor mortis) with lascannons are a great choice for ravenguard. The contemptor in particular hits on a 2+, has an invulnerable and looks really cool as a bonus.

A straight replacement for the razorback could be a mortis dreadnought with quad heavy bolters. It's only 109 points but gets CTs and chucks out loads of dakka. I've only just "discovered" this option for myself but it looks pretty legitimate. My crimson fists could definitely find a use for one or two of these for the purpose of gunning down infantry in cover. It might not be quite so awesome for ravenguard but it's still pretty decent I think. It's basically a razorback with a better range and CTs - but no transport capacity.

Quad autocannons are a cool option too - less good against infantry but good if you need some help finishing off a vehicle. You can also put autocannons on a standard dreadnought (using the points from the index), which is an elite choice rather than heavy and costs 5 points less than a Mortis.

Contemptor dreadnoughts are excellent. You won't have the firepower of your razorbacks but would replace it with the ability to deal great damage in cc.

Finally a simple 5 man devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is only 105 points - basically the same as the dread. There isn't much to choose between them I think.

Thanks, yeah, that's a good point on the chance at quad las and I'll give this a long second thought, though quad auto cannons are available on most of the chassis (Venerables, Mortis, and Contemptors) and what I was planning to take. But unless needing a loadout that isn't available (such as quad las), I don't think a Mortis is worth it. For +15pts the Venerable gets the BS2 and the ignore wounds, which by my numbers put it ahead in point efficiency.

I'm glad you didn't push the Deredeo. Those stats are excellent, but 230+ pts each would be harder to work around, plus I'd have to buy the kit(s)

The Deredeo actually doesn't suck. The trick is to give it heavy bolters and not add the missile launcher thing. It's got the most firepower of any dreadnought I think - or at least any apart from a Leviathan with stormcannons.

It costs the same as a redemptor and has an awful lot more firepower, plus better range.

The problem it has is stuff with good armour saves. But going from S7 to S8 is better against just about everything it's likely to shoot at.