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Plasma pistol vanguard veterans are also cheaper than combi-plasma sternguard (by only one point per model to be fair). They can deep strike without Lias and have jump packs to move around. They do have the problem of only 12" range, though the fact that they come with pistols makes them theoretically better in cc. In reality they probably die before a shooting phase comes around.

Personally I don't think there's much need for any expensive drop plasma attack with marines. Your guys just die so fast and can pretty easily be screened against. I find that hellblasters in repulsors work really well, as do ravenguard assault hellblasters walking.

I basically think that Lias is a trap. He looks great on paper but what he really does is help you do something that's a bad idea, really well. You don't want your ravenguard (or raptors or whatever) within 12" of the enemy. He lets you put loads of them there.

If you want drop plasma you don't need Lias. Honestly I'd recommend playing dark angels and using their stratagem on a big unit of inceptors, with a master and a lieutenant nearby. Firing at full effect at 12" is far better than 12". It's a lot harder to screen against and you might just possibly get to keep your unit for a turn or two more.

Greetings all!

I'm thinking about potentially tinkering up a Salamander list in the near future but I haven't played Space Marines for like a decade and a half (or basically 40k for that matter) so I'm wondering if you guys could give me some pointers and constructive critisism to a list I wrote. It's not meant to be winning tournaments but hopefully do respectably against most enemies.

Salamanders 2000 points
Brigade Detachment 11CP (12-1 for extra relic)

HQ
Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought - Twin lascannon 212pts (Can he be your warlord and does he have access to relics?) In that case he also has Salamanders Mantle and Storm of Fire
Captain - Master-Crafted Boltgun, Power Sword 81pts
Lieutentant - Master-Crafted Boltgun, Chainsword 63pts

Troops
Scout Squad - Heavy Bolter 65pts
Scout Squad - 55pts
Tactical Squad - Lascannon, Melta Bombs 95pts
Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher 90pts
Tactical Squad - Lascannon 90pts
Tactical Squad - Lascannon 90pts

Fast attack
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter 77pts
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter 77pts
Scout Bike Squad - Combi-melta 94pts

Elites
Aggressor Squad - Flamestorm Guantlets 117pts
Apothecary - 55pts
Company Ancient - Storm Bolter, Standard of Emperor Ascendant 65pts

Heavy Support
Land Raider Redeemer - Hunter-killer Missile, Storm Bolter, Multi-meta 383pts
Rapier Carrier - Laser Destroyer 100pts
Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer - Hunter-killer Missile 191pts

Total 2000pts even

So what do you think? Any mistakes I made (either in tallying the points or some illegal additions etc)?

Mandragola wrote:
Plasma pistol vanguard veterans are also cheaper than combi-plasma sternguard (by only one point per model to be fair). They can deep strike without Lias and have jump packs to move around. They do have the problem of only 12" range, though the fact that they come with pistols makes them theoretically better in cc. In reality they probably die before a shooting phase comes around.

Personally I don't think there's much need for any expensive drop plasma attack with marines. Your guys just die so fast and can pretty easily be screened against. I find that hellblasters in repulsors work really well, as do ravenguard assault hellblasters walking.

I basically think that Lias is a trap. He looks great on paper but what he really does is help you do something that's a bad idea, really well. You don't want your ravenguard (or raptors or whatever) within 12" of the enemy. He lets you put loads of them there.

If you want drop plasma you don't need Lias. Honestly I'd recommend playing dark angels and using their stratagem on a big unit of inceptors, with a master and a lieutenant nearby. Firing at full effect at 12" is far better than 12". It's a lot harder to screen against and you might just possibly get to keep your unit for a turn or two more.

In all the games that I've played as pure SM, yeah, I got that feeling that they're too soft and bringing them 12" next to my opponent just makes it easier for him to kill them. But I've also played a couple of games with St. Celestine (and once with 5 Paladins and 10 GK Strike guys for funziez) and having that distraction for my enemy helps Sterns live longer. Usually long enough to cripple the enemy enough for him not to be able to recover. I've ordered some Assassins recently and I hope that they'll just magnify this effect. Also bringing Company/Chapter Ancient helps a little.
I'm not saying that Sterns are THE best unit to achieve what I want, but right now I'm not willing to put them on a shelf and buy some other units that are just marginally better at the same job. If only money grew on trees.

I need to play more games really. Will see how it goes.

PiñaColada wrote:
Greetings all!

I'm thinking about potentially tinkering up a Salamander list in the near future but I haven't played Space Marines for like a decade and a half (or basically 40k for that matter) so I'm wondering if you guys could give me some pointers and constructive critisism to a list I wrote. It's not meant to be winning tournaments but hopefully do respectably against most enemies.

LIST

Total 2000pts even

So what do you think? Any mistakes I made (either in tallying the points or some illegal additions etc)?

I'm not familiar with how some of those units function individually on the tabletop, but overall it seems pretty solid.

Here's an interesting thing regarding Sternguard:

10 Sternguard w/SI Bolters + Stratagem vs. MEQ
5.9 = (20 x .666 x .666 x .666)

10 Sternguard w/SI Bolters and 2 Grav Cannons + Stratagem vs. MEQ (Assuming -1 for heavies as we're on the move for a drop)
6.9 = (8 x .5 x .666 x .83)

IMO if you're going to be using the Stratagem, Grav Cannons may not be worth it. They're 52 points for an extra wound against marine types. The MEQ type is important for Sternguard because I think it's basically the only target that the Special Issue Bolters are statistically better against, when compared to lots of other options in the book.



For Max Murder, 10 Sternguard vs. GEQ, Chapter Master and Lieutenant nearby, pop Stratagem:
17.2 = (20 x .888 x .97) Screen clearing duty. Probably the best use there would be to fire at two or three different squads and force morale rolls. Not sure it's worth it to use the Stratagem to kill a couple extra guardsmen, but it could be handy.


If I were running Lias I'd consider 2 Dev squads with Grav and 1 Sternguard Squad, just all with SI Bolters. Everyone as 10-man, as the extra bolters in the Devs can help with anti-screen as well.

macexor wrote:
I've been running 10 combi-plasma Sternguards (and 10 SIB ones) under Lias Issodon for quite some time. After these CA changes I've just compared them to Inceptors and I must say, that the Inceptors look really good.

10 combi-plas Sterns are 310 pts
5 plasma Inceptors are 295 pts

I'd feel really bad to buy some now, cause that'd probably make me stop using Sterns. And I've just ordered some Assassins, so there isn's really much space for new units in reserves...

yup. How can we sell more primaris. Make them cheaper and better than all the stuff everyone already has. Thats how they get ya!

I tried a thunderfire for the first time since 8th dropped, today. I used it with the stratagem against 20 genestealers, it was very effective, especially against such a quick unit.
But, except for this particular case, I can't see myself keeping a thunderfire in my lists. Have you had good results with it and the stratagem ?
I didn't use it for months because its damage output seem pretty bad to me, only the stratagem looks useful.

As Tyranids become more popular, it might be worth taking them in a TAC list. I suspect Orks will have a decent codex for once as well

Well, just finished Turn 1 against my brother's Ravenwing with my Crimson Fists and I am getting soundly beaten. Dark Talon wiped out my Devastators with a Stasis Bomb and a second one did the same trick to one of my Hellblaster Squads. My only real damaging contribution so far has been Pedro Kantor and his boys ripping apart two Squads of Black Knights. Unfortunately, nothing else has really performed up to snuff. Terrain hasn't helped me at all and Imperial Fists Tactics are absolutely garbage.

We are going to finish the game in the morning. I suspect I will be tabled by the end.

A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

Mandragola wrote:
A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

He rolled five dice and got four 5s or 6s. It was nuts.

Mandragola wrote:
A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

It's 5 th ed all over again, except this time DA are in on the fun! And we're all still crap compared to IG! OMG, it IS 5th ed! Isn't that everyone's favorite on here? 5th ed?

space marines are designed to be mid tier.

But but but ATSKNF and Combat Squads!!!!!!!

I'm feeling like FW is necessary for SM to compete. Quad mortars and Scorpius are the perfect counter for reaper spam, deredeos are the perfect anti-flyer, leviathans are anti everything, Sicarans are fantastic with the reduced points.

 buddha wrote:
I'm feeling like FW is necessary for SM to compete. Quad mortars and Scorpius are the perfect counter for reaper spam, deredeos are the perfect anti-flyer, leviathans are anti everything, Sicarans are fantastic with the reduced points.

How much (and where?) were the Sicarans reduced by?

Razerous wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I'm feeling like FW is necessary for SM to compete. Quad mortars and Scorpius are the perfect counter for reaper spam, deredeos are the perfect anti-flyer, leviathans are anti everything, Sicarans are fantastic with the reduced points.

How much (and where?) were the Sicarans reduced by?

Chapter approved. Usually around a 75 point drop per variant which makes them useful again.

I'm definitely a fan of the Scorpius in a parking lot. If you got your rerolls going, that's an average of 12 shots going off (assuming you don't move, but that's unlikely).

I've just ordered 6 Dark Imperium Inceptors. Mostly because they are cheap, I like their rules and I kinda need more anti horde in my lists. So I'll be using them with their Assault Bolters. Just wanted to know, if Dark Imperium ones even come with plasma bits. Do they? Couldn't find out that.

Mandragola wrote:
A dark talon should never kill a whole unit with its bomb. You do a mortal wound on a 4+ for each model. Did you roll 10 dice against 5 guys?

Devastators are a good target for it but hellblasters shouldn’t be.

That said, I do think there’s a problem right now with dark angels and blood angels essentially being marines +1. It doesn’t make much sense that they get everything marines get, plus a lot more unique stuff, plus better CTs. The marine codex really suffered from being first, I think.

I don't think that being the first codex had a work in this, after all the DA chapter trait was in absolute the first one spoiled, we had it at the same time as the release of the indices. This tells us that the chapter traits were already set in stone a long time ago.

macexor wrote:
I've just ordered 6 Dark Imperium Inceptors. Mostly because they are cheap, I like their rules and I kinda need more anti horde in my lists. So I'll be using them with their Assault Bolters. Just wanted to know, if Dark Imperium ones even come with plasma bits. Do they? Couldn't find out that.

Nope, unfortunately there are no weapon customisation bits in the DI set.

Quick question from a noob, the idndex says that the Deathwatch can get special issue bolter ammunition. How does that work? Do you give every unit one at the beginning of the game, or can you change it up per unit per turn?

Also how does that stack up against other chapter abilities?

Shrapnelbait wrote:
Quick question from a noob, the idndex says that the Deathwatch can get special issue bolter ammunition. How does that work? Do you give every unit one at the beginning of the game, or can you change it up per unit per turn?

Also how does that stack up against other chapter abilities?

You choose what type of ammo your guys fire whenever they shoot.

Dakka Inceptors are great now. Good choice! Their bases are a bit tricky though. My tip: 1) glue the stand directly to the base usimg a good superglue, then paint over. Score the bottom of the stand for extra grip 2) the stands actually come with a little circular nub atrached to them. Don't cut it off! It works well as another contact point for your glue, amd isn't visible on the table. This makes them pretty solid, haven't had a break once.

So the Fire Raptor went down in points a bunch.

So the standard is now going to be Tiggy+Guilliman+Fire Raptor. What will marines support this with?

Well, I did a second game against my brother's Dark Angels with my Crimson Fists and tallied a win this time. This time I replaced my Lascannon Razorbacks with Assault Cannon Razorbacks. They definitely got a lot more work done. My Rhino Primaris has been taken out in both battles before I even got first turn. My Devastators received two chaff Marines with the extra points, not that they needed them since the entire squad lived through the whole battle. My brother REALLY hates my Hellblasters. One squad was the target of one of his Dark Talons, the other ate a bunch of Black Knight shots. Pedro, my Captain, and my Lieutenant ate through two entire squads of Black Knights on their own. A Razorback exploding ended up taking down a Dark Talon (one of the funniest happenings of the game). We did make a couple of mistakes (we kept accidentally giving his Talonmaster and Dark Talon Azrael's Invulnerable save, and he forgot that he gave the Talonmaster the Shroud of Heroes.), but overall the game was fun. We both haven't played too much in 8th yet (this was his second game and my fourth).

What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

Chronus is great in a pred - it's too bad you can only take 1 of him. It's really not much better than a pred for it's price though and I think he's gone up 5 points in chapter approved. It's just great you can take a preditor as an HQ.

I wish Iron Hands got a superfly tank HQ line Chronos.

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).