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bananathug wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).

I've never had him die in turn 1 - he's always behind something when deployed (last), and his positioning means anybody getting in range and los to take him out turn 1 will be in a gak position for the following turn and gets punished for it, so my opponents never do it.

Lemondish wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).

I've never had him die in turn 1 - he's always behind something when deployed (last), and his positioning means anybody getting in range and los to take him out turn 1 will be in a gak position for the following turn and gets punished for it, so my opponents never do it.

lol, you might not have faced Eldar and going 2nd. If you did you will feel it.

The BA tactics thread discusses whether it should only discuss mono-BA builds.

I'd configure an army with 40% shooting elements vs. tanks/monster, 40% shooting and cc vs. infantry, and 20% misc. such as infiltrating and objective sitting.

How should an SM soup army look like fulfilling the above requirements?

I'd suggest a Ravenguard firebase vs. tanks and monsters such as Devs w/missile launchers or lascannons, or Predators w/ autocannons and lascannons.

Next, I'd include BA for cc such as DC or SG.

The remaining percent could be filled by Ravenguard Scouts for objective sitting and whatnot.

Thoughts?

How my Salamanders doing?

Last I played them lots of dreads and some agressors with vulkan backing them up

Splitting up lascannons in 5 man tac squads worked great

Any other killer strats?

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
How my Salamanders doing?

Last I played them lots of dreads and some agressors with vulkan backing them up

Splitting up lascannons in 5 man tac squads worked great

Any other killer strats?

Yeah, taking 9 man tac squads with a combi and a special, (Meltas do really well here) and chuck them in a rhino with a character. Have a couple of these and blast up the board. Due to your tactics you're pretty much guaranteed 2 hits and wounds with the meltas, and your opponent has to shoot through seven marines before they can start having an effect on the big weapons.

Other good idea for dev squads is taking a plasma cannon amongst them and using the signum on that, as the +1 to hit means they can't over heat. Ironclad dreads are always great choices, and giving your characters good weapons also goes great. I've got a librarian with a grav pistol that does a good bit of work. The only problem I have with salamanders tactics is it makes me feel like my tanks are half useless haha.

The Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile stratagems are notably better for Salamanders, since you can re-roll that all or nothing hit roll for them without having to waste extra command points.

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
How my Salamanders doing?

Last I played them lots of dreads and some agressors with vulkan backing them up

Splitting up lascannons in 5 man tac squads worked great

Any other killer strats?

Dread with las/missile launcher aren't half bad either, as they benefit well from the CT

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on sargent Chronus in a quad Las predator with hk missile?

All that firepower hitting on 2s re rolling ones should kill most non superheavy vehicles in a volley. I ask because I used him with another pair of predators for the killshot stratagem to allow me to also wound vehicles on 2s re rolling 1s with lascannons, and dropped a Dred and a land raider in a turn? Good? Or big point sink?

He dies turn 1 to any enemy fire. If you get 1st turn he should do work, if not he goes away before he gets to do anything giving up a ton of Champion's Missions points. He's not that much more expensive than a regular pred but I've just found he dies (even supported by tigarius' -1 to hit) way too easy to build any type of strategy around (although I find this happens to all of my vehicles that don't fly).

I've never had him die in turn 1 - he's always behind something when deployed (last), and his positioning means anybody getting in range and los to take him out turn 1 will be in a gak position for the following turn and gets punished for it, so my opponents never do it.

lol, you might not have faced Eldar and going 2nd. If you did you will feel it.

No, I have, and those are the people who either put themselves in super gakky situations where they can kill him, but can't shoot anything else for another whole turn. That would probably win me the game after I dismantle the rest of their army before the heavy hitters come around again, or they spread out and position themselves to hit my other, more dangerous components. I say probably, because I've never seen it happen. The quality of opponent I face, they never really fall for that, hence why he's never been killed turn 1 on me. He dies, all the time, but never before being able to act. I usually lose something else of value, of course, because Eldar alpha is quick and painful, but it's never been Chronus.

 tpogs wrote:
I wish Iron Hands got a superfly ANYTHING.

Fixed that for you.

But honestly, why in the world would the Chapter renowned for their “Machine Empathy” get an HQ who is good at piloting machines. That just doesn’t make sense at all. The generic poster boy Chapter deserves all the good stuff.

Median Trace wrote:

 tpogs wrote:
I wish Iron Hands got a superfly ANYTHING.

Fixed that for you.

But honestly, why in the world would the Chapter renowned for their “Machine Empathy” get an HQ who is good at piloting machines. That just doesn’t make sense at all. The generic poster boy Chapter deserves all the good stuff.

Agreed. It's irritating that some pretty generic characters (tank ace, and super scout) have been made as ultramarine special characters. It would make more sense to have them be generic, since nothing about the ultramarines says they should have the best of those kinds of guys.

Median Trace wrote:

 tpogs wrote:
I wish Iron Hands got a superfly ANYTHING.

Fixed that for you.

But honestly, why in the world would the Chapter renowned for their “Machine Empathy” get an HQ who is good at piloting machines. That just doesn’t make sense at all. The generic poster boy Chapter deserves all the good stuff.

Maybe let Ironhand have a special Chatpter Champion or even Chapter Master in Dreadnought? having 9W, a 4++ and 5+ Fnp?

A special Character Dreadnought would be great as part of the next Triumvirate box.

They probably should do that dread or what was it called the forge father again?

Anyone running anything deepstriking that compares favorably to 3x eversors a culexus and celestine+seraphim (700 ish points)?

Just for the wounds alone they seem to be half the cost of other options and their offensive output + 3d6 charge/AoF seems to be the best deepstriking option across the codexes (BA 2x DC + 1x SG + support characters?)

Thinking of running a battalion and spearhead of 3x manticores, 4x guardsmen, 3x 3 mortar crews, 3x scion command squads some tempestor primes, harker and a couple psychers.

I'd love to fit a couple bolter-cepters, a unit of aggressors and some deepstriking CqC but I can't find anything cheaper/better than the celestine assassin bomb. I'd be willing to drop the mortars to make room but 99 points doesn't really buy a lot of marines

Am I missing anything here? Any other ideas how to get a solid cost effective beta-strike out of a SM list?

At 700 point game against those id say a dread sock because its annoying.

but ultimately id say ignore the culexus unless you have auto hitting weapons, and just do whatever you can to blow up the assassins and sisters.

Since invulsaves id say dont bother with too high an ap weapon like the plasma and go for weight of fire.

Median Trace wrote:
A special Character Dreadnought would be great as part of the next Triumvirate box.

Maybe but the next triuvirate will likely include a primarch. Still I'd go with for the next Trimvirate:

Triumvirate of the Wolf.

Lemen Russ,
A Iron Hands unique Primaris character
A sister of Silence Unique character (allowing people to deploy sisters of silence in thier own detachment)

What do people think of Vanguard Veterans with Plasma Pistols and Chainswords? Every tactica I see about VV have them taking Lightening Claws, TH/SS, or dual Plasma Pistols. These have the VV functioning as sledgehammers basically in the role of anti-marine single wound, anti-monster, and anti-vehicle/monster drop.

However, I want to try try 5 VV with PP and Chainsword that go with Captain Invulnerable (Shield Eternal). Since the captain grants re-rolls of one's, it seems like to me that you're kind of wasting this ability to safeguard your plasma weapons if you don't take any! Also now that pistols can be used at 1" in the shooting phase, they aren't useless like in previous editions. I also don't want to go with a pure LC or dual chainsword since I have nothing to ensure they get the 9 inch charge after a deep strike since i'm not taking Shrike. TH/SS setup I'd imagine you wouldn't deep strike them as much.

I guess the role I envision for these VV isn't a pure sledgehammer role but rather a mobile reserve role that is highly versatile. I figure having the ability to pump in 5 plasma shots if the opponent doesn't bubble wrap his tank up is nice. However, still having 3 attacks with a single chainsword is not bad against hordes even though it's not the 4 attacks that can be gained from double chainswords. The points cost for the plasma pistols seem really fair when compared with power swords and power axes which may struggle to ever be swung.

Seems like to me that the plasma pistols are a force multiplier. I kind of see VV more like enhanced Assault Marines and a mobile versatile reserve rather than pure hammer units like terminators. Is this a good setup or am I missing something fundamentally? I mean returning to this edition means my eyes jump at the thought of plasma pistols now being cheaper points wise by half (instead of 15 in past editions) then before and able to be used in melee!

The extra 5 attacks at the opportunity cost of 5 plasma shots isn't worth it, IMO. Unless you're really worried about the 35 points, I suppose.

The types of things you'll be wanting to assault aren't really going to need 5 more attacks to either tie up or kill, while 5 extra plasma shots doubles your damage output. If you're going as far as to use a captain for the rerolls, you really should go all in.

However, if you're going BT or White Scars (For reroll charge/charge out of fall back), there may be some merit to doing 10 man squads with a mix of some melee, storm shields and double plas pistols.

The double plasma pistols brings the models quite expensive for a single wound model. Granted 10 plasma pistol shots of 5 models is good but at that point I could pretty much take Company Veterans with Plasma Guns for cheaper. Since I'm using Lias and Raptors, Company Veterans as a drop for plasma are cheaper both body-wise and gun wise than taking dual pistol VV.

I guess I am using them more like an Assault Squad dropping 3 plasma pistols then VV as a hammer unit. I'm paying 24 more pts for 2 more pistols and 5 base model attacks. Seems kind of worth it to me.

I'm not sure why dual chainsword is so popular if you plan on deep striking them. They have a 28% chance of rolling a 9 without re-rolls and only goes up to like 50% with re-rolls. That isn't great at all. I guess they are just kept cheap and hope for charge in 2nd turn or you don't deep strike them at all. I guess dual plasma pistol makes the most sense as a complete drop unit. However, I wanted to sort of split the difference with a single plasma and a chiansword.

IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

Also given the nature of these charge rolls, the variability is also very high even if the expected average comes in at roughly 50%. Doesn't seem like a sound strategy to me to tool up for melee fighting on such a coin flip. I kind of wish charging was a D3 element instead of D6 element and think that would improve the game. Sort of like how the Predator auto cannon works compared with D6 weaponry like Lascannon. Like the Pred Autocannon, I'd rather give up some damage potential for less variability and more normal damage curve.

The 35 pts spent on a single plasma pistol each is kind of like a hedge that the unit will still be useful...

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

Who is granting you the re-roll to both? Shrike?

I'm not taking Shrike since I'm lead my Lias/Raptors so I don't get that re-roll. Even then, the probability is 58% I believe for re-roll on both dice. (again I am taking this from another article I read). 58% is hardly the most glamorous.

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

Who is granting you the re-roll to both? Shrike?

I'm not taking Shrike since I'm lead my Lias/Raptors so I don't get that re-roll. Even then, the probability is 58% I believe for re-roll on both dice. (again I am taking this from another article I read). 58% is hardly the most glamorous.

Being Black Templars. Still, my response was in response to someone who said it was a 50-sh% chance with rerolls, to which I pointed out that a CP increases it to 72ish%. I wasn't taking into account where the reroll was from.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC it's something like a 72% chance with rerolls if you use a CP to reroll one die if one is 4 or more.

Well yeah that's still a 2 step probability. You rolling a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice is still the issue. It's not at all a guarantee you roll above a 4 even if you have 2 chances on it. You are right that it changes the decision point on whether to spend that CP or not to boost. But it doesn't change the overall probabilities.

The overall probabilities compared to what?

Since I'm at work, I can't calculate the probabilities right now. I do remember seeing that there is 58% of getting a 9" charge off with Shrike re-rolling both dice on the charge. You're example is re-rolling one dice right by spending one CP correct? That's one less dice being re-rolled than Shrike offers. So it's definitely in between the 28% and the 58% figure I have heard getting a re-roll on one dice. Exactly what I'm not sure.

It is 72% CONTINGENT on you rolling a 4+ on one dice on the first roll is what you said. That isn't overall percentage since there are a few ways to not roll a 4 on 2 dice. We all have rolled 5 and 6 on 2 dice before . You didn't factor that into your 72% quote or you are just making a point that there is 72% chance if you do roll a 4 in the first place (which is a good recommendation on how to use a CP).

The overall percentage to roll a 9 with re-rolls of 2 dice is 58%. That's the max % it can be and higher than what you are quoting is my point.

No, mine's rerolling one dice if you get one that's 4+ on the first result and otherwise using the reroll to reroll both.

Who is granting you the re-roll to both? Shrike?

I'm not taking Shrike since I'm lead my Lias/Raptors so I don't get that re-roll. Even then, the probability is 58% I believe for re-roll on both dice. (again I am taking this from another article I read). 58% is hardly the most glamorous.

Being Black Templars. Still, my response was in response to someone who said it was a 50-sh% chance with rerolls, to which I pointed out that a CP increases it to 72ish%. I wasn't taking into account where the reroll was from.

It's not 72% straight like you are saying. It's only 72% if you roll a 4+ in the first place on 2 dice. Then re-rolling ONE dice by using the CP which gets you to 72% if you had already rolled a 4 on one dice. You have to factor in the chances that you don't get a 4 on either of your first 2 dice.

The 58% chance is the max it can be I believe since that's factoring in 2 dice re-roll. That 58% for re-rolling 2 dice is more than you re-rolling one dice. Hence, Shrike's ability for rerolling charges is the same as you have for Black templar.

Odds to make a 9" charge:

No Re-roll: ~27%
Re-roll Both Only: ~48%
Re-roll Low Die Only: ~52%
Re-roll Low on 4+, Both Otherwise: ~57% (best overall odds achievable by re-rolls alone)

I'm misremembering, 55.29% is the max you can get it up to using a source of "reroll both" and a CP (not using both at once, just using the one that's better for any given roll), you're right.

BrianDavion wrote:

Median Trace wrote:
A special Character Dreadnought would be great as part of the next Triumvirate box.

Maybe but the next triuvirate will likely include a primarch. Still I'd go with for the next Trimvirate:

Triumvirate of the Wolf.

Lemen Russ,
A Iron Hands unique Primaris character
A sister of Silence Unique character (allowing people to deploy sisters of silence in thier own detachment)

Doubt the Iron Hands would ever get any sort of character. They have one character for 40K, Vaylund Cal, and one actual model being Ferrus Manus.

If they were to get one I would love for it to be a Techmarine OR Kadran Stronos. But Stronos is unlikely since "his" axe is already a relic.