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I have had good luck with this heap of junk. I call it the Millinieum Falcon of lists. It doesn’t look like much but it’s got it where it counts.

Captain on bike with thunder hammer
Librarian on bike with stave - Null Zone, Veil of Time
Captain with jump pack, powerfist
3 shooty Aggressors
3 shooty Aggressors
5 Vanguard Vets, jump pack, 5 plasma pistols
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
5 sniper Scouts
5 sniper Scouts
5 Scouts, missile
5 marines, lascannon
Attack bike with mm
Attack bike with mm
5 Assault marines with jump pack
5 Devastators, 4 Heavy bolters
Stalker
Thunderfire Cannon
Twin lascannon Razorback
Twin lascannon Razorback
Culuxes assassin

I play as Crimson Fists. I start with 12 cp, minus 1 for the Assassin. Minus 3 to turn the bike Captain into a chapter master I’ll give the jump Captain the Fist of Vengeance and sometimes the bike Captain the Primarchs Wrath.

The most expensive unit is the librarian at 129pts and everything has a roll. I can accentuate certain units each game depending on what my opponent has. The absolutely most important thing about this list is I can lose any unit and still be fine. There is no linchpin. That being said I’ve won some games not by killing the enemy dead, but by dieing slowly enough to win.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.

I have heard people using them in a kind of «assassination unit» assaulting backfield units and characters, and they had success this way. Is it how you use them ? Obviously, I used them wrong, keeping with my old 7th habits.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.

The main question though is how much more damage do we need to do on multi-wound models? Most of our range weapons we end up using already take care of this issue.

 godardc wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.

I have heard people using them in a kind of «assassination unit» assaulting backfield units and characters, and they had success this way. Is it how you use them ? Obviously, I used them wrong, keeping with my old 7th habits.

Yep, suicide/assassination, to threaten whatever target they're best suited for. I should mention that I play Ravenguard, so the unit and the chaplain use strike from the shadows for a turn 1 assault if I get first turn, or to deploy behind LoS blocking terrain in midfield if I go second. Jump packs allow them to bypass all but the best screening bubblewrap to get at the target they want.

But even with another chapter, they could use jump pack deepstrike and terrain. More threatening and mobile than reivers or scouts. They don't necessarily need the chaplain escort to be threatening, but I usually need the extra HQ anyway and chaplains are cheaper than anything else other than lieutenants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The main question though is how much more damage do we need to do on multi-wound models? Most of our range weapons we end up using already take care of this issue.

As a matter of personal preference, I'm not a huge fan of static/shooty armies because I get bored when my guys stand still and roll dice. So I usually have a minimal anvil in my hammer/anvil armies, and sometimes I play all mobile/flying armies with no firebase at all. So as an alternative way to play, with few or no lascannons in the backfield, I need more high strength, multiwound weapons.

Also it feels from experience like this vanguard unit typically takes on things that a lascannon or other ranged weapon would have trouble with--flyers and other things with a to-hit penalty for ranged weapons, things that are out of LoS, and characters. They did pretty well against the all character battlesuit and stealth suit Tau army.

Also also it's a pretty standard tactic for these guys to swarm and surround a non-flying vehicle with their first charge, use the trapped vehicle to make themselves immune to shooting during the opponent's turn, then kill it in the opponent's turn and move away and assault something deeper in. It might be hard to time that kind of thing out with lightning claws and the targets that are appropriate to lightning claws.

Anyone know how UM/SM faired at LVO? I haven't seen much of GMan anymore, has he fallen out of favor?

Yeah I'm curious to know what Space Marines players were fielding at the tournament.

There were 3 gman lists in the top 100 as far as I could tell.

I think all three had gman, fire raptor and tiggarius (I think one list that was all they had).

Competitive vanilla marines are in a tough spot. Space wolves, dark angels and blood angels all performed much better than vanilla marines. Most of the soup lists used sisters so there weren't even a lot of IG/SM lists.

I think CA point changes were the straw that broke the camels back. I think there was one ravenguard list that used primaris and the blood angels list that did well used intercessors but with dark reaper spam eating marines for breakfast the marine lists that did good were the ones that didn't play dark reapers (at least from what I could tell)

Im running Salamanders, Venerable las dread and a regular multi melta dread in most of my lists these days (the ironclad sadly doesnt do very well without transport)

is a techmarine worth it?

I feel as though he heals too little and they attract all kinds of anti tank fire despite my lists being very vehicle heavy

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
Im running Salamanders, Venerable las dread and a regular multi melta dread in most of my lists these days (the ironclad sadly doesnt do very well without transport)

is a techmarine worth it?

I feel as though he heals too little and they attract all kinds of anti tank fire despite my lists being very vehicle heavy

Well you generally wont need the rerolls off a captain or other character since you have it built into your CT

a Tech marine can be cheaper (?) and being able to heal is always convenient though it wont stop some one from focus firing at them.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

I think Smurfs are the best since basically every unit has the keyword Fly. This edition shooting is king so it's a really big deal. Smurfs also have access to the most special characters and a lot of them are really good too. SM armies need counter assault units more than those that go out there to punch things.

Primark what space marines need is one of three things.

1) A good CC unit
2) A stratagem to make one of our mediocre units good in CC
3) Buffs for our mediocre CC units

2 attacks does not make an elite close combat unit good at killing anything. Especially when their powerful weapons swing at -1.

I am using Custodes now as a smaller detachment for cc and it is working out quite well. This pretty much takes care of (1) - (3).

Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them.

Haha you never fail to really crack me up.

Martel732 wrote:
Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them.

They make a fairly good supplement to an army, but fair poorly alone

Yeah exactly.

What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

You don't even know do you?

What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

I am curious to see if Imperial Fist see more play once FW drops the Rogal Dorn model. Their Chapter Tactics suck IMO so it will be a sacrifice.

 Dynas wrote:
I am curious to see if Imperial Fist see more play once FW drops the Rogal Dorn model. Their Chapter Tactics suck IMO so it will be a sacrifice.

I highly doubt it considering dorn is for 30k not 40k 8th

As for the CT... eh i think its fine. not over or under powered. except the building thing. feth that part.

 ultimentra wrote:
What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

Shield Captain in terminator armor

3x Allarus

3x Warden

Vexilla

Vanguard Detachment.

 Desubot wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
I am curious to see if Imperial Fist see more play once FW drops the Rogal Dorn model. Their Chapter Tactics suck IMO so it will be a sacrifice.

I highly doubt it considering dorn is for 30k not 40k 8th

As for the CT... eh i think its fine. not over or under powered. except the building thing. feth that part.

I can confirm that the imperial/crimson fist stratagem is basically fine. Eldar rangers are a thing right now and they don't like to be shot with bolt rifles that ignore cover. Dakka inceptors are great for clearing units of devastators and dark reapers out of cover - unless there's a farseer near them.

Our bolter drill stratagem is rubbish though, I must admit. You could conceivably justify using it on inceptors or aggressors but it still wouldn't be great.

I'll be getting Dorn for sure. My 30k imperial fists have waited so, so long for him. I can't see myself actually playing 30k at the moment - 8th is so much better - but he's a must have.

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

I like it a lot. It sounds really nasty.

 Primark G wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

Shield Captain in terminator armor

3x Allarus

3x Warden

Vexilla

Vanguard Detachment.

Interesting. Which banner are you taking on the Vexilla? +1 attack or Deep strike?

 Porphyrius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

I don't think the 5++ brings a lot to the Marines, unless it is something AP-3 ignore cover. Otherwise, putting your Devastators in backline ruins already give them a 2+ save (4+ Sv VS AP-2 or 5+ VS AP-3, which are majority of "anti Marine" weaponary have), that is going to make that 5++ Vexilla a waste of points.

 ultimentra wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
What units are you taking Primark? I was thinking either terminator shield captain + deep strike some regular custodes troops, or taking a jetbike shield captain and a unit of 3-5 bikes, would have to take a min 3 unit of custodes as well though so that might be too pricey. It defeats the purpose if my list has more custode than space marine.

Shield Captain in terminator armor

3x Allarus

3x Warden

Vexilla

Vanguard Detachment.

Interesting. Which banner are you taking on the Vexilla? +1 attack or Deep strike?

I bring the 5++ banner because I am also using SM... it works really good with Primaris Marines.

 Porphyrius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What do they bring that marines can't do cheaper?

I'm toying with the idea of taking the 5++ vexilla to hang alongside a gunline of devastators, supplemented with an apothecary, captain, lieutenant, and potentially an ancient with the relic standard. It's a lot of points of course, but it seems like it would be a huge pain to focus-fire down the good guns. Given that I play Raven Guard, that's a -1 to hit, a 5++, 3+ chance to fire again if they die, and a 4+ chance to bring one model back each turn. Probably fit the vexilla in a patrol detachment with a unit of Guardians and a shield-captain, which will be used to camp an objective. I'm not really sure how competitive it would be, but it seems like a fun idea I'd like to try.

What do you all think?

My list has two units of devs with lascannons and lascannons. Two units of 5 hellblasters, a captain a lieutenant an apothecary and an ancient in a gunline as the anvil. Work wonders and it is raven guard. The rest of the list is bubblewrap and a shrike vv bomb. No tanks or dreads on purpose as to render the opponent's AT overpriced.

What I mean is that I love the idea of having a 5++ but I would struggle to find the points for it.

I love it.